<p>interessteddad: yeahyeahyeah. Heard it, seen it, visited the schools with reps for churning out future PhDs in the hard sciences, and I stand by my daughter's assessment of excessive "artsiness." It was more of a vibe the students put out there, not so much a concern that the school didn't offer sufficient focus in what she is interested in doing. </p>
<p>The LACs just held very little appeal for her--lots of extra work filling out applications, without the diversity and variety she is seeking. It was really useful to visit them, but it reinforced in her mind she wants to attend a university, not a college.</p>
<p>I realize that advocating application to a large number of schools is not a popular position, but particularly with schools that could easily fill their incoming classes a couple of times over with well-qualified students from their applicant pools, there is an element of randomness in who does and does not gain acceptance, and I think it would make sense for OP's son to expand his list not only by adding some clear matches, but by expanding his reach list. Also, if Penn is the top choice, EA does make a difference there, and might eliminate the need to apply elsewhere. The schools on his list do seem to have clear differences in terms of size, location, atmosphere (which I think is a good thing), and I wonder if he would consider adding some of the interesteddad suggestions. Schools like Rice and Cornell also spring to mind, as do Johns Hopkins and what about USC, where he might also qualify for merit $? Depending on how you compare Florida to Michigan in his intended major, would a rolling admission to Ann Arbor, particularly with the honors college, make sense for him?</p>
<p>"OK parents-Question-when your child is in the top tier for GPA,tests, EC's yada yada, are the Ivy's reaches-or matches? What kind of school would be a safety? The state universities?"</p>
<p>The Ivies are reaches for everyone even if your student has a 2400 SAT and is valedictorian. Most people probably overestimate a strong student's chances for Ivies and similar schools, not realizing that the student a student who is outstanding locally such as being an Eagle Scout and valedictorian is competing against students who are Presidential Scholars (have top SAT scores and grades in their states), got into very competitive free national academic summer programs like MIT's RSI (expensive programs like National Leadership Conference on [insert subject here] are NOT competitive nor is Who's Who), and are national presidents of organizations, represented their state at national Boy's State or are double legacies.</p>
<p>For a student with top grades -- 3.9-4.0, val or sal, SATs 2300+ schools ranked from about the top 20 and higher might be closer to being match schools -- University of Michigan, Emory, University of Virginia, Wake Forest, Vandy. The student may also have a chance of getting merit aid. </p>
<p>Take the time to look on the individual college boards here and to check the stats of students who apply to the schools your student is considering. Also check to see who's rejected and accepted. You'll learn some useful things including that being excellent is no guarantee of admission to top colleges particularly since the overwhelming majority of applicants to such universities are extremely well qualified for admission. </p>
<p>Meanwhile, UF is an excellent school, which attracts lots of outstanding students and is very affordable. Just make sure that your student would be happy there if it's being used as a safety because your student may end up there.</p>
<p>Quote: It may come as a shock to the original poster in this thread and I hate to pour cold water on admissions odds, but the ECs, as listed for the applicant, aren't really strong enough to make Dartmouth, Brown, Penn, Duke, Amherst, Swarthmore, Williams, or WashU a match. Top 5%, 2250 SATS, class presidents don't really stand out in the applicant pools at these schools...and we aren't even talking about kicking it up another notch up at Princeton.<<</p>
<p>Excuse me for not knowing how to use the quote feature. I'm new to posting here, although I have been reading for about a year.</p>
<p>I'm not sure that blanket statements can be made right now about where a student will get in or not; some of the schools mentioned above, as we all know, have application processes that mean that even the "underachiever" might find a place if the school finds something interesting in the application. The pool of qualified students is now so huge that I can't help but think, after just having gone through the application season with twins, that it's a bit of a crapshoot. For instance, one son attended a high school that had a very high recent ranking (I won't say how high, since that will pinpoint it) for the number of students who are accepted to the "top" colleges and universities. This year, the most of his male friends (and I'm talking a wide circle) only got into their safety schools and their legacy schools. For instance, he was accepted only at Lewis & Clark College and Amherst College. One was the top school he wanted to attend and one the least! His friends have told the same story; for instance, one was accepted only to the University of Vermont and to Dartmouth. Each of them are attending very good schools--but thank goodness the parents went there first.</p>
<p>My son falls into the "underachiever" diversity pool at Amherst, we joke. He did not take a "rigorous" curriculum in high school, has an issue with handing things in on time, and had few extracurriculars. He IS a gifted writer and did very well on the SATs (2250). Amherst saw something in him and I can tell already that he is happy and engaged. </p>
<p>My point? Simply that numbers don't tell all.</p>
<p>Complete agreement with Northstarmom. Not to mention, at my kids' high school, which has a very good track record with college admissions, even being a Presidential Scholar or val with significant national recognition did not guarantee admission to the first choice college. It's easy to come up with a "Yeah, but those kids didn't steal fire from the gods as an EC" kind of an explanation, but other kids from the same high school who were accepted at the same schools didn't cure cancer either, so go figure. (These nationally top kids did end up at absolutely top colleges, but were rejected at others.) Hence my advice to expand the list, including the top of the list. You just can't assume that if a student looks qualified for colleges in a particular tier, he'll be equally desirable to all colleges in that tier, or that admission to a school in a high tier implies admission to the schools on the student's list in lower ones.</p>
<p>I also think that 2incollege has a great point, and this makes things even less predictable. Cast a wide net!</p>
<p>"you can check "no" on the box for seeking financial aid, that might be a factor in admission."</p>
<p>That isn't a factor in admissions for places like Ivies, which have need-blind admissions, and guarantee to meet 100% of the documented financial need (remember that means what the college thinks the student needs, not what the parents want to pay) of accepted students.</p>
<p>Not only legacy, but the reputation of the high school --- if it is one of the known feeders -- is also a boost. That's why I say it's important for the OP to have a good idea of where son stands in the context of his high school's track record with selective colleges and how he matches up against his peers applying to similar colleges.</p>
<p>If the GC is really on top of things and knows how students from the HS have done with various colleges for the past several years, in addition to knowing the competition this year, it's a huge help. But even being a qualified legacy from a feeder is not a guarantee at many top colleges. Our school had some very well-qualified legacy kids applying to the legacy schools early who ultimately were not accepted, but were accepted by comparable schools where they had no hook whatsoever.</p>
<p>When it comes to top schools, stats (SAT - GPA) are only part of the equation. A high percent of the applicants qualify for admission based on stats alone. At least they are in the "ballpark". I don't believe that a tenth of a GPA point or a few points on the SAT are deal breakers. So with a below 20% acceptance rate, how to choose?</p>
<p>Schools are looking to build vibrant communities - a mosaic or a jigsaw puzzle. Imagine if the school has a entering class of 1,000 - they are looking for 1,000 pieces that when assembled gives the school the mosaic that they feel works best for their campus. From an applicant point of view, how have you defined your piece and where does it fit the puzzle. They don't need 1,000 researchers or 1,000 athletes or a 1,000 musicians. They need some from each and from many other sub categories. </p>
<p>Assuming that at these types of schools, the majority of candidates are qualified for admission - it may well come down to the differences. This is where ECs, community service, special talents, essays and recommendations come into play. Like I was once told at the top schools "its not good enough that your child "walks on water" they had to have "invented water".</p>
<p>Just my two cents worth - all I can say it seemed to have worked for our family.</p>
<p>I think legacies can be a boost, yes, but I've also known many legacies to be rejected; for instance, I know a whole family of kids (4 so far) who have been rejected by Harvard despite their grandfather, father, and uncle having attended both as undergrads and in law school--and despite their boarding school, AP, fancy-resume college applications. Perhaps, however, in this competitive years, kids are going to have to think of their parents' colleges as "safety schools."</p>
<p>For a year I've read on these boards about the need to push, push, push kids to have phenomenal high school stats, and I'm beginning to wonder if, given the number of kids applying, if that's going to be the answer anymore. I know that my sons, despite my own pushing of them, chose to reject that path. I don't know how this will turn out for them in the end.</p>
<p>Thanks for all the comments. While getting accepted to any of these schools is difficult, so is paying for the privilege of attending. We will not receive aid via FAFSA. He can attend UofFL basically for free. My S has already decided he will get his MBA. My thought is to attend a non-Ivy with merit aid (if offered) and apply to a great MBA program for post grad. He seems to be leaning toward international business or investment banking. The comment regarding disappointment if he only gets accepted at FL is a non-issue. His sister attends UF and loves it. He is visiting her this weekend to see if he likes the campus. While he is a serious student, he also enjoys a social life. He will probably be involved in student gov't, etc, wherever he attends. What schools are known for merit aid considering National Merit, etc.?</p>
<p>Re the merit aid, check the thread posted as a "sticky" (ie, has a pushpin icon on it, and stays at the top of page 1) in the Parent Forum on Schools Known for Good Merit Aid.</p>
<p>Glad to hear from you again, cateye. As many of us have indicated, if your S would truly enjoy UFl and is not one of those kids who will be "devastated" if he doesn't get into his reach schools, you are in a very good situation. And you will find many who endorse the strategy of finding an undergrad degree at low or no cost and saving $$ for a graduate professional degree.</p>
<p>I think the list is fine if the young man is happy with UFl. Florida is pretty close to the top 50 Uni list if not actually on it. I don't see a problem at all in having a gap between the reach and the safety as long as the student is happy about the safety. Where it is a problem is when the safety is just tacked on to satisfy the safety school that GCs often insist on having. I have seen list where the schools are all small universities and LACs and then some huge state U as a safety, and you wonder how much thought has gone into that list. This does not appear to be the case here.</p>
<p>Ah, investment banking. Wanting to be an investment banker is a reason to aim at very specific schools. There are feeder schools to banks, and most are not very open to kids fom schools outside of their comfort zone. Those include the ivies, MIT and Caltech, A few top publics (UVA, Cal, Michigan) and very top LACs. </p>
<p>Kids who get the analyst jobs at banks after undergrad are most likely to end up with the bank jobs post MBA. Kids from ivies and the like also make up a hugely disproporionate percentage at top 10 B schools.</p>
<p>So if he is focused on a bank job or top business job, this is one instance in which I would advise choosing the college accordingly.</p>
<p>I would add UMich to the list. It would be a match school for the young man and a school that would make things a bit easier for his field of choice.</p>