Please Help!! Bryn Mawr or Barnard/Columbia for Physics and Computer Science??

Hi. Thank you for looking at this thread.

I was accepted to both Bryn Mawr and Barnard and I am having a lot of issues with deciding where to attend. Neither of these colleges are my first choice, but I believe they are both good institutions. Bryn Mawr has offered me a substantial amount of scholarship money, while Barard still has not gotten back to me with a financial aid estimate.

My parents are pressuring me to go to Barnard and have threatened me with not paying for college in the event that I choose to go to Bryn Mawr. I’m not sure if it’s my teenage rebellious angst repelling me from Barnard at this point, or if I am not actually a good fit for this school. I am an aspiring Physics and Computer Science major, but I have little knowledge on the academic rigor of the programs at these schools. I know that if I go to Barnard, I will be taking classes at Columbia which has some of the best physics resources in the world, however I don’t know if this will benefit me as an undergraduate.

I am leaning towards Bryn Mawr because I believe the environment is more supportive and I have been invited to run on their track and cross country teams, but Barnard seems to be academically superior…

Thanks for your help!!

I would really advise you to go to the admitted students weekend. It seems your parent are really set on going to Barnard. So I’d advise not to completely and utterly rebel. Maybe tell them your leaning towards Barnard but want to go to the Bryn Mawr admitted students weekend just to be completely sure. You don’t exactly have to feel that way but it might ease them up a little. Then go to the Barnard admitted students weekend. And decide for yourself if there’s a huge disparity between the two. Which one would you be happier to walk to everyday? How are the opportunities at both? Preparation for graduate school if you’re going that route?

This might be a little biased since I’ll be going to columbia next year but if you are looking for an academically higher superior–you said it yourself-- Barnard is the way to go. Then there is the problem of environmental support. Maybe try being a little optimistic here. You haven’t even been to the school yet so it won’t do justice to stamp them right off the back. How do you know you won’t receive support at Barnard?

Also, and I’m sure you already know this, but being a student athlete is a rigorous schedule. And being a double major on top of that is even harder.

I’m a high school senior myself and I can tell you looking back that some schools appealed to me for the dumbest reasons. It’s the allure of college. But sometimes us kids have to be realistic. Look at it in the long run. When you look back in four years, will you be happy with the decision you made? And who knows, you might not get good financial aid from Barnard and Bryn Mawr might be your only choice. Oh and the thing about teen angst. That is definitely a thing. When people try to force you to do stuff you’re automatically gonna want to do the opposite. Just keep that in mind and don’t let it bother you to much. It’s your decision in the end. Good luck!

See if you can convince your parents to go to both accepted student days. In all honesty I’d choose Barnard for its NYC location and partnership with Columbia.

Please look into the physics program at Columbia, as that would be, according to what you’ve written above, where you would be doing your physics program study.

Two years ago, there were 20 undergraduates in the physics department. 20! You would find an amazing access and amount of attention coming your way if you were in a physics department with numbers like that.

Your concern about support and environment cannot be overlooked or discarded by any means. You sound fearful because you have not done the requisite research into the respective schools, and because you seem to have your heart leaning toward one school over the other, though you really have not done the preparation necessary for you to make a choice.

Write your list out of things that are important to you, and go through it with your parents, seeing how each of your points is met by each university.

Here’s a list of some things you can start to think about in terms of academic qualities that may be important to you. This list comes from a parent speaking to other parents:

This is the list to assess academic quality:

• Are classes at the freshman level taught by faculty or graduate students?
• Will your son have access to faculty members?
• Do faculty members have regular office hours?
• Can students conduct research with faculty members?
• What percentage of the faculty has a Ph.D. in their field?
• If your son has an academic problem, is there a place he can go to obtain help?
• How many students graduate in four or five years?
• What is the average GPA of those students?
• Do students have difficulty getting classes their first year or any other year?
• How many students go on to graduate, law, or medical school and which schools are more popular?
• What kind of personal /career counseling services are offered to your students?
• What percent of students are employed six months after graduation? After a year?
• Which companies come to campus to recruit graduating seniors?

For CS, the joint Barnard / Columbia offerings appear to be very complete, with many of the more advanced courses offered every semester. The Bryn Mawr / Haverford / Swarthmore combination for CS courses is not too bad, but it is not clear how often each course is offered, and the commuting distances are longer than between Barnard / Columbia (since any one of the three colleges’ CS offerings is not very complete).

Here is a comparison table: http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/discussion/comment/19190340/#Comment_19190340

Why do your parents want you to go to Barnard, and why do you not want to go there?

Barnard/Columbia is going to offer a first-rate education, but I wouldn’t so quickly write off Bryn Mawr: it too is strong academically and it too benefits from a consortium setup, as BMers (couldn’t help myself…) are able to take classes at nearby Swarthmore, Haverford, and the University of Pennsylvania.

Of those three, Bryn Mawr is closest to Haverford, and I have read that cross-registering is easiest between those two schools; but taking classes at Swat and UPenn can be done also.

I think the OP’s decision should rest primarily on the following:

  1. Academic fit: look at the programs and classes that are offered -- first at Barnard and Bryn Mawr, then at the other colleges in the respective consortia.
  2. Finances: which will send you out into the populace with less debt?
  3. Setting: NYC or Philly suburbs?

I’m not entirely clear on how easy it is to enroll, as a BM student, in Swat and UPenn classes. That might be worth researching. Haverford is its own great additional resource, but adding Swat and UPenn (as practical options for classes) could quite improve the course offerings and overall experience of a Bryn Mawr-centered education.

(I have no horse in this race… just wanted to stick up for Bryn Mawr while refusing to disparage the Columbia/Barnard brand.)

I think both are excellent choices; you can’t really go wrong here. Bryn Mawr’s an excellent college with a really beautiful campus.

I do want to point out that the joint relationship with Barnard and Columbia kind of changes the game here - in ways that can be positive or negative depending on your preference. For computer science particularly, and to a certain extent for physics, Barnard relies on the resources available at Columbia. Columbia has world-class, top-ranked departments in these fields with lots of top faculty and resources. So you’d be getting access to some really excellent classes, and a much wider and broader range of them than you would normally at a small liberal arts college. (And yes, these resources can benefit you as an undergrad in some ways, particularly if you want to do research and/or go to graduate school.) The social life at Barnard is also integrated heavily with Columbia because of proximity and historical connections between the schools (although Barnard women do have their own unique social organization and student life as well).

That could be a real positive for a young woman who wants that, but some young women seek out the women’s college experience because of very specific reasons that Barnard might not support. For example, a young woman who wants to be in a mostly female science department for support or comfort reasons isn’t going to get that at Barnard (because really, all of your CS classes and many of your physics ones will be taken at Columbia). A young woman who wants a really female-dominated social scene may or may not have that experience at Barnard because of its social integration with Columbia. Your preference might just be to go to a small, cozy little LAC campus that’s sort-of isolated from other places rather than be integrated with a medium-sized research university…and that’s okay.

I wouldn’t say that Barnard in and of itself is academically superior to Bryn Mawr - they’re about equal. It’s the connection to Columbia that elevates Barnard in a lot of people’s minds. I suspect that may be why your parents are pressuring you to go to Barnard. But that connection doesn’t necessarily make it better, it just makes it different. Bryn Mawr is a very well-respected college and you can go very far in any field from there.

Thank you so much for all the responses. I will try to do more research on what these school have to offer and rid myself of angst. My parents don’t want me to do the admitted students program at Bryn Mawr, but they will let me visit.

My mom went to Barnard, which I believe is the primary reason I got into the school and the reason why she wants me to go there. My parents also feel that this is the place where I will be most successful in the future. Also to give a little more background, I have Japanese family and Columbia is the most famous American University because an emperor’s son went there or something??? But I’m not entierly sure if that Columbia/Barnard will help me be most successful. I’ve read that it’s mostly teaching assistants teaching the undergraduate courses at Columbia…

I feel that if I don’t go to Barnard I will be missing out on a fantastic education, but if I go to Bryn Mawr I will be missing out on a fantastic experience. I think visiting the schools will help me with my decision. Thanks again!!

Ordinarily, a choice between Barnard and BMC would focus primarily on the difference between living in NYC and living in a Philly suburb. But, if the departments you are primarily interested in would be through Columbia rather than Barnard’s own departments, that can change the type of instruction from the LAC small class experience to lectures and TAs in intro classes at Columbia. You can probably access the class list for this year at Columbia to see class sizes, how many discussion sections etc, for departments you are interested in.

Both Barnard and Bryn Mawr offer the best of both worlds in that they are each institutions committed to women’s education and success, while offering a co-educational classroom experience through the Bi-Co community at BMC/Hford and the Barnard-Columbia relationship.

Bryn Mawr is highly regarded school and has a gorgeous campus, looks like Princeton’s architect was practicing his Gothic on the BMC dorms etc. A different experience from living on Barnard’s campus in the upper upper west side.

I would work on your parents to let you attend both admitted students days. Good luck, and congrats on your acceptances!

You won’t be missing out on a fantastic education or experience at either one- they are just different. What none of us knows is you: what environment you will thrive in.

Don’t forget that physics/CS has a high likelihood of graduate school. You will be in the extreme minority there (Columbia is about average, with 10% female grad students & faculty. Not being in such a minority in undergrad has some real benefits.

There is also a reasonable debate between the benefits of a large university v an LAC for undergrad science. A university will put you in a bigger pond earlier, will certainly have more course options and will have more resources. On the other hand at an LAC your core classes- E&M, Quantum, Thermo & Mechanical- will be taught by professors (not TAs) in small classes, and your opportunities for doing research are likely to be greater/earlier. Assuming that you do your part (get good marks, get research experience), you can get into any grad school program from either school.

@juillet: “I wouldn’t say that Barnard in and of itself is academically superior to Bryn Mawr - they’re about equal. It’s the connection to Columbia that elevates Barnard in a lot of people’s minds. I suspect that may be why your parents are pressuring you to go to Barnard.”

This is an extremely important point to consider, as we can sometimes be moved by the consensus’ idea of “prestige,” over that for which may be a better fit for us. The adcoms at Barnard are also aware that for some, the lure of the association with Columbia is what has drawn young women to its college and they seek to lay those applications aside in search of the applicant whose voice rings true to the Barnard community and its mission to serve talented, driven young women.

Barnard saw something in you that felt yours was such a voice. In this thread I would say you do sound a true candidate for the intimate, women’s college experience. Honestly, you feel less torn than pulled.

I hope you find your way to listening to what calls to you.

I look forward to knowing what you choose.

If Columbia is like most research universities, larger classes will have a faculty teaching the main lecture, with additional smaller discussion sections and labs run by TAs. Sometimes, a smaller class will have both a lecture and a discussion section, so you end up with two instructors for a small class.

You can check class sizes and formats in the on-line class schedule at each school.
http://catalog.barnard.edu/barnard-college/courses-instruction/course-search/
https://trico.haverford.edu/cgi-bin/courseguide/cgi-bin/search.cgi

Double majoring in Physics and CS would be tough. If that’s what you want to do, expect to be in school at least five years.

Thank you so much for all the replies. It has really helped me to clear my head and think about this decision rationally.

I’ve looked into some of the stats for these schools, and I agree with others about how neither institution is necessarily better. They are vastly different and I need to recognize where I fit in best. I think I will definitely visit each campus and see how I feel about them.

I’m really glad someone said something about the prestige of Columbia because that is what I think has been really drawn my parents to them. They have been ignoring that different people will learn better or worse in that sort of environment.

Thanks again for all the helpful replies.

Hi, my sister goes to Bryn Mawr and I visited the school over spring break so I sort of have an idea of what it’s like.
I know you’re asking about academics mostly but I also think it’s important to consider the social scene there and I don’t know anything about Barnard at all but this is my experience with Bryn mawr- The environment at Bryn Mawr is really, REALLY accepting and inclusive. At many schools they have issues with racism, but Bryn mawr has so much diversity compared to other colleges and it’s evident everywhere you look. The LGBT community there is strong and most of the students there are either bi or gay. Overall the community is so safe and welcoming (we call it the Bryn mawr bubble). The campus is also ridiculously beautiful and all the buildings look like castles. The food is great and they have all u can eat ice cream and a milk shake machine too. Also the school is near philly yes but it’s still a maybe 30 minute drive but the train station is within walking distance to the school. (Transportation is expensive). My sister mainly stays on campus but idk if you want to be doing to same. As for the consortium, a bus runs between Haverford and Bryn mawr very often every day. Swarthmore is in the consortium too but it’s a farther distance and a shuttle runs between the schools less often and there’s not as much interaction between swarthmore and Bryn mawr students. Partying isn’t big at Bryn mawr but they do have parties. If you want a more lit party you can go to Haverford and party there.
If you have any more questions about the social scene if be happy to help!

When we visited Barnard with D, people considered science to be pre-med.

Bryn-Mawr is on the list of top 50 U.S. baccalaureate-origin institutions of 2002–11 S&E doctorate recipients, by institutional-yield ratio (Table 4 in the link)

http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/infbrief/nsf13323/

with respect, this

is unlikely to be true and could put off students whose path is different.

I don’t want to be rude, and I do understand the value of fit…but if the worst thing that happens is that you are “forced” to choose Barnard over BM, then life really is very good. Many many people would love to be in your situation. Both are great schools and you will have a fantastic education and expreince regardless of which school you end up at.

She wants to be the happy1 for the duration of her stay, not after she learns to how to deal with elements that are lacking or outside of what she would have her residential academic experience be.

Her concern over fit is entirely a valid one, and there are many different aspects of her expectations and sense of the ideal (not say perfect) that she seeks to vet, find the courage to give voice to, and then act on.

It is important to remember: “A young [woman] forced to choose against [her] will is of the same decision still.”

When you have all of the aid packages, sit down and go through them carefully with your parents. Find out how they expect to cover any differences in cost. The numbers may make your decision for you. http://www.finaid.org/calculators/awardletteradvanced.phtml