<p>I don’t know where your D got the impression that Macalester has a reputation s a party school. Perhaps she’s thinking of somewhere else? Bard, btw, is not a hippie school. Some will say it’s got its fair share of hipsters, but not that many hippies. Engaged passionate intellectual students. It also has a higher percentage of international students than on your list, which must come from old data. The current freshman class is 24% international or dual citizens. <a href=“Search Bard College”>http://www.bard.edu/about/profile/</a>
All that said, Bard is not the kind of school to choose based on statistics. It is a special place, but not for everyone. You should have your daughter look through the websites of these colleges, and read the current course lists to see if the classes offered and the faculty teaching them are of interest to her.</p>
<p>Has your daughter taken the online tours of each campus? Read the forums out here on CC going back a couple of years to get a flavor for the schools? Read the campus paper if it is available online? Read the Fiske Guide to Colleges review of each (that is the best review that gives a holistic view of the school, IMHO). If you aren’t going to pay for a visit (which would have given her the best chance at really getting a feel for each school), those things would all be a good idea. And I am not asking if YOU have done those things – your daughter should be doing it.</p>
<p>SpiritManager</p>
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<p>intparent</p>
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<p>Your daughter should borrow every guide (fiske, insider’s guide, princeton review…) from her high school and read precisely what each guide states about each school.
It’s imperative that your daughter read these, for instance so that she understand the difference between hippies and hipsters. (to understand “hipsters”, type in the word… also the funny series of commercials with Kenny Mayne by a tax group to encourage “hipsters” to talk about taxes. Hipsters are very self aware and derisive but have inspired a lot of mockery.)
Macalester is not a party school. It’s known as a very politically engaged school. Most students have political opinions, causes they’re ready to defend, and not just talking but doing things about it. There are excellent videos on their website.
Brandeis is 40% Jewish so it’s got an important minority of a group that’s usually a small minority in the US. It was founded as an elite alternative to the Ivy League which used to discriminate against Jews (they don’t anymore and haven’t for 40 years.)</p>
<p>Okay, I have to comment on the “Mac as party school” discussion. We used to live in the neighborhood, our kid’s high school feeds a few kids there every year, and my D2 was accepted there last year with significant merit aid. I think Mac is a great choice (and personally would pick it for the OP’s daughter given all that he has said). But they do party at Mac – not insignificantly. But they party at every school on the OP’s list, too. It certainly isn’t more of a party school than any of the other three schools. If the OP’s D does not want to party, she will find plenty of like minded students at Mac. And a campus in a location with a lot of things to do besides party, too – one problem with some smaller rural colleges is that sometimes there isn’t as much to do except party, but Mac does not have that issue. When I think of the students I know who went to Mac in the past few years (I knew four of them well), 3 are pretty much non-partiers and as far as I know haven’t gotten into it much at college. One did party pretty significantly (she has graduated now, did fine academically and was employed after college even in a tough recession market). So, like most US colleges, certainly you can party if you want to. </p>
<p>Regarding reading the CC forums for a college, I find it to be sort of like the school newspaper. It is a pretty unvarnished look at the school if you dig back, but you also will see debate from all sides about a school as well. </p>
<p>Just a note: don’t say “elderly”, that means very old in age, like 75+, say “eldest”, meaning oldest daughter)</p>
<p>The labels your daughter proposed are really crude and gross, the sort of immature thing expected of a high school student. Characterizations like this disgust me because they are dismissive and empty of considered thought and imply some superiority complex. These are all fine schools under discussion with a variety of students. I wouldn’t give such characterizations any attention.</p>
<p>Wm and Mary is not the most recognized school from my perspective, Bard is. It is an elite LAC. I don’t think any of these schools are head and shoulders more recognized than the others, maybe Macalester a little less and I wouldn’t pick or not pick based on that.</p>
<p>All schools have parties. There will be alcohol and pot widely available. That is the nature of college in the US. One participates or not. You can go to a party and not drink. I’m not under any illusion that my daughter waited until she was 21. Schools known as party schools are usually large state colleges where a lot of larger parties go on and may be less academically inclined students will spend too much time partying. But there will be plenty of serious students and academics available at party schools. Not that I would ever call Mac a party school.</p>
<p>As you have seen, Brandies is 40% Jewish but is inclusive of other students. A couple of high performing minority students have reported getting a very nice scholarship this year and they do attract plenty of other students. Jewish people themselves are extremely diverse, being non religious as well as religious, of varied cultures and interests. Plenty of non Catholics go to Catholic universities as well. Well maybe not in such large proportion even. I don’t think this is anything to be concerned about, just aware.</p>
<p>Hippies, well there aren’t really any hippies since the 60’s or 70’s. This is a dismissive term for people who might be free spirited, concerned about the environment, recycle, wear casual clothing, like to eat vegan, prefer marijuana to alcohol perhaps. Hipster is a prejudicial term for intellectual, perhaps urban, arty people, who may dress in current youth attire–I find it used by people who are intimidated easily. All these terms are just a way of putting down other people and not treating them as individuals. </p>
<p>While they look for someone who will do well in the culture of the college, Admissions at these small colleges look for people who bring a variety of interests to campus, they try hard to bring diversity.</p>
<p>I get the impression that OP and OP’s D may be looking for the more mainstream experience in a US college/university. If that is true, then note that Brandeis is probably the more mainstream, with William and Mary next, then Macalester, and then Bard. Brandeis is not what one would consider one of the more mainstream campuses in the US, just compared to the others mentioned here. Others may disagree, but that is my take.</p>
<p>I find it funny that posters defend a school by claiming that it is not “hippie” but “hipster.” I have always admired true hippies. </p>
<p>Visit. There is a different vibe to each school. If you could not afford to do so, or are financially hard pressed so it isn’t wise to do so, that would be one thing, but you are shrugging off a $50K differential, so pay up 10% of this to take the trouble to feel out the places. I say so because there really is that much difference in the atmosphere of each of the choices. Some of my kids took that very much to heart. Two of them knew they had “come home” at a certain college, and that went a very long ways in their happiness and determination to make things work out when things did not go well. So do your research and go there I know kids who love, love, loved Bard. It was just what they wanted. Others who ran the other direction after a few minutes there. Some who felt W&M (my favorite of the bunch) was just the perfect school or like my one son, face swelled up (pollen allergies) and it became clear he’d need aggressive therapy in the way of shots. Kind of a deal breaker. Too bad, i loved the school and the flowers that rivaled those at some botanical gardens. My son also visited TUfts where my DH was gung ho and felt it was the perfect school, Boston, great rep, great academics, and my son really did not like the feel of the kids there. So, yes, that can go a long way in picking a school. Some sorts that love Bard’s quirkiness, WM’s more traditional feel, Brandeis’s Boston, and Macalester’s LAC specialness, may not like other attributes of that group at all.</p>
<p>If it’s all good, lay down what it would cost–minus loans and workstudy, take those out of the awards, each year, and offer up half to your kid. $25K in a nest egg at grad can cover a lot of start up costs, some travel, start a savings or brokerage account, pay for great car in full. YOU save your part too, and that will give you options at the end of this ride, not to mention fund the rises in cost that will come up as well as emrgencies. </p>
<p>I know kids at and were at all 4 schools who love them, hate them.</p>
<p>MYOS1634
Intparent
BrownParent
Austinareadad
cptofthehouse</p>
<p>Since we decided not to go, we use any available internet sources to obtain information of schools. She read books MYOS1634 suggested and we have Insider’s guide and Princeton review in her room.</p>
<p>I read the definition of hipsters and found both My D1 (she recently graduated from NYU) and D2 are in fact part of them, who value independent thinking, counter-culture, progressive politics, an appreciation of art and indie-rock, creativity, intelligence, and witty banter. Only exception may be progressive political view which I am not aware they have.</p>
<p>My view for Macalester is not “party school” as all four schools I listed up are not party school at all. There are parties on Fridays and weekends in all colleges, and that’s totally acceptable. I myself enjoyed parties when I was in a local university here.</p>
<p>Thank you for correcting me to use eldest instead of elderly, BrownParent. I appreciate. I am 100% sure people understand instantly English is the second language for me while reading my posts. I am taking English conversation class every week, every time my teacher corrects my pronunciation like when I should speak “Bard” I tend to say “Bart”, or when I should speak “Chocolate”, I say “Chocorate”… But there is a lot of fun in the class for me.</p>
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<p>I have very good Jewish friend, so I have no issue about my D2 going to Brandeis if she wants to go. </p>
<p>For reputation and name recognition, I thought William and Mary is by far #1 among those four since they are the second oldest college in the US and some of notable alumni include three U.S. presidents. I do respect on William and Mary as well as other three. </p>
<p>Austinareadad, I didn’t realize Brandeis is more traditional than other three schools. Could you help me little bit more to illustrate why you think so?</p>
<p>My D2 have pollen allergies and my W said to her the other day William and Mary might not be good choice since they are surrounded by forest. </p>
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<p>Thank you very much for your posts!</p>
<p>You seem to be really mired down in things that don’t matter… like the age of the college. I don’t think Wm & Mary has better name recognition than any of the other 3 in spite of how long it has been around. One reason people keep saying you should visit is that you seem to be spending a lot of time on stuff (at least to me) that isn’t very important.</p>
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<p>And BrownParent, what an east coast viewpoint… Mac is ranked quite a bit higher than Bard in USNWR; rankings aren’t everything, but it is a cut above Bard academically.</p>
<p>Ok @intparent 
I have to take issue with you saying Macalester is a cut above Bard academically. Macalester may admit a lower percentage, and the reported SAT scores may be lower and class rank and all the rest - but academically I don’t think there are any colleges in the US which are superior - it has some of the best professors in the world, in my humble opinion - which to me is what academics are really all about. :)>- </p>
<p>intparent</p>
<p>I am getting confused why you seems to get impression I was mired down in things that don’t matter. I simply said W&M has long history and three presidents out of the college and I admired it. I didn’t spend too much time on this as this is very obvious. </p>
<p>I am just curious what else you think I care things that don’t matter to you at least?</p>
<p>Plus I posted once again. the list below is my reasons why I recommend Brandeis. there is no long history with Brandeis…</p>
<p>(from my old post)
I considered all four very hard in every aspect then I almost narrowed down to Macalester and Brandeis.</p>
<p>My recommendation to my D is Brandeis.
- Academically challenging
- Destination data looks pretty good
- Undergrads can take grads classes if a major is offered in both undergrads and grads
- Internship during school year can be arranged
- People said to be very friendly
- Suburb of Boston with lots of interaction with college kids and cultural activities</p>
<p>Also please see my original post for college criteria. There is no criteria for long history but reputation (plus name recognition).</p>
<p>(from original post)
- Emphasis of improving student’s critical thinking
- Emphasis of improving student’s writing skills
- Emphasis of improving student’s verbal presentation / discussion / debate
- Support to build up student’s readiness to good graduate schools
- High satisfaction of class experience
- Attentive and caring professors
- Quality of teaching
- Research opportunities
- Oversea study opportunities.
- Possible Job opportunities
- Reputation of the university/college
- Collaboration with other colleges for organizing community service events</p>
<p>thanks.</p>
<p>OP, you asked why I thought Brandeis was more mainstream than the others. </p>
<p>As you know, Bard and Macalester are LAC’s with their own unique characteristics and social environments. I suspect that only a minority of elite LAC’s would be considered mainstream, and I don’t think that Bard and Macalester are in that minority. One data point that would concern me is the number of sexual assault reports, which is high for both schools (Bard particularly), given their small populations. On another note, I believe that Bard and Macalester do not have Ph.D. programs, with the exception of Art History at Bard. </p>
<p>William & Mary is a medium-sized public university, which is mostly composed of a self-selected population of students from one state. Brandeis, a small to medium-sized private university, shares many of the characteristics of other small to mid-sized elite private institutions in the US, including having a significant Asian-American population (13%, William & Mary: 6%), a large foreign student population (17% reside in foreign countries, William & Mary: 6%) and varied and numerous graduate programs (most of the non-undergrads at WIlliam & Mary are in the law school there). </p>
<p>Brandeis only appears to be unconventional because of its origin as a school for Jewish students excluded from the Ivy League and its relatively high percentage (40%) of Jewish students today. However, Jewish culture is well within the mainstream in the US, an integral part of the fabric of US culture, so any of the characteristics of Brandeis that are due to Jewish influence would not put it outside of the mainstream of US institutions of higher education.</p>
<p>By the way, most of the statistics I cited above are from a US government website called “College Navigator”. You can check it out for yourself if you have not already.</p>
<p>This is a really bizarre thread. It sounds as though the OP wants to quantify various aspects of each option, while showing a clear preference for Brandeis no matter what.</p>
<p>austinareadad’s suggestion to look at collegenavigator.gov is a good one. Another thing we did when looking at schools we didn’t know if we could visit was to look at YouTube videos of activities at various colleges.</p>
<p>I think it is hilarious that someone would suggest that it is easier to get to Boston than Minneapolis-St. Paul from outside the U.S. MSP is a major hub, especially to Asia and Europe. Logan is not.</p>
<p>I also agree that Macalester is significantly harder to get into than Bard. My son was interested in both of those schools but dropped Mac after visiting (he found the environment too suburban/too much like home). He didn’t visit Bard but got a very generous merit offer from them. He ended up choosing another college in the end. We have a family friend whose son is about to graduate from Bard and he has loved it but the parents have found services lacking (especially when they have needed to talk to someone in the administration over routine things). It is also a pain to get to NYC from there. </p>
<p>austinareadad: I’m not sure what you mean by “mainstream” either. What would a “mainstream” LAC be? Or a “mainstream university” be?
Surely you can’t mean that Bard and Macalester ensorse sexual assault (if anything, Macalester is very vocal about <em>any</em> form of violence, including symbolic and cultural, toward women.)
It’s just such a strange thing to bring up, especially considering that sexual assault tends to correlate with party schools, which none of the 4 colleges are.
By “mainstream”, do you mean the place of religion, as in referring to Brandeis to “not as unconventional as might seem due to its origin as an elite for Jewish students”?</p>
<p>OP, we just got back from visiting Macalester, and I don’t think your daughter can go wrong with it. The Twin Cities are really impressive, and I’ve never seen a more multicultural campus. Plus, the stereotype is really true: Midwesterners are just SUPER nice!</p>
<p>MYOS, the statistics at the College Navigator website regarding sexual assault are easy to find. As for the surprising results one can find there, I would note that we live in a world of unbounded complexity, and knee-jerk reactions often produce unintended consequences. Some schools that one would expect to have low rates actually have high rates of sexual assault (many of the elite LAC’s have much higher rates than large public university “party” schools). I think that some approaches to the problem poison the social atmosphere, increase the distrust and miscommunication, and result in more injurious acts that cause pain of some kind.</p>
<p>As for the meaning of “mainstream,” obviously that is not going to be well-defined. My wife is an immigrant from China, and I know she had all sorts of expectations and stereotypes regarding American behavior, and she would be more uncomfortable and confused in some environments than others (with the more “mainstream” being more in line with the expectations and stereotypes and thus more comfortable for her).</p>
<p>They may just have a high rate of reporting and dealing with it when it does happen. Reported sexual assault and actual sexual assault are not the same thing. In a large, impersonal environment where the administration is seen to be bureaucratic or uncaring and/or the health center is not readily accessible and/or one’s peers are not supportive in helping a person to receive care and/or such behavior is seen as more normative the rate of reporting could easily be lower than you would expect.</p>
<p>Or, they may count more things as sexual assault, which, if accused, is very difficult to prove otherwise. It is a VERY slippery slope.</p>
<p>Gosh . . . when I google ‘sexual assault Macalester College’ the first 2 pages are all college based resources for prevention, awareness, reporting, support etc. I see no actual reports. They even have an online incident report form. One hears of students being actively discouraged from reporting at other schools so I would take this as a good sign.</p>