<p>My D, who is an U.S. citizen educated overseas, got acceptances from four colleges, College of William and Mary as out-of-state student, Macalester College, Brandeis Univ., and Bard College. We still can’t decide which college she should go to. So I hope someone can kindly tell me some insights of difference among these four. I did some research on this College Confidential, US News Ranking, Student Review, etc. Still kind of hard to choose only one..</p>
<p>As for major, she is still undecided. However, she said she like neuroscience, philosophy, economics, and psychology.
So she chose colleges with liberal arts focus.</p>
<p>Our expectation to colleges is as follows.
1) Emphasis of improving student’s critical thinking
2) Emphasis of improving student’s writing skills
3) Emphasis of improving student’s verbal presentation / discussion / debate
4) Support to build up student’s readiness to good graduate schools
5) High satisfaction of class experience
6) Attentive and caring professors
7) Quality of teaching
8) Research opportunities
9) Oversea study opportunities.
10) Possible Job opportunities
11) Reputation of the university/college
12) Collaboration with other colleges for organizing community service events </p>
<p>I believe all these four colleges she got admitted are at least satisfied the above points at some level except #12 and I heard they are all great colleges. </p>
<p>And she got the following scholarship and grants.</p>
<p>College of William and Mary: Probably zero scholarship. The letter of acceptance which we received last Sunday said they would mail within a week, so we are waiting but I believe all W&M scholarships were notified to those qualified in early March. It means no chance for her to get any as out-of-state student. </p>
<p>As far as cost comparison, I guess almost all college costs are in the same range. Therefore I want to focus on Academic quality and chance of success in future. </p>
<p>Additional info:
Just received email from College of William and Mary saying financial aid award was up in the student portal.
$8,750/year grant.</p>
<p>Those are all pretty nice choices. I guess I would let her choose based on how well she find the fit. I think they will likely all fit your requirements pretty well. See if there are particular features she like in some over others. I can see it would be a hard choice as they all have their charms.</p>
<p>I don’t really understand this criteria at all – just do not know why it would be important. I can see why she would want the opportunity to participate in community service events, but usually the pool of students at her own college would be decent sized. I just don’t see why this would or should matter (have never seen anyone list it as a criteria before – I guess if I had, I would have suggested she apply to a college in a consortium, but none of them on her list are consortium colleges).</p>
<p>Honestly, these are four very good colleges, and she should be able to meet her goals at any of them. I can’t tell from your post whether cost is a big factor or not. You list all the scholarships, then say:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>But they aren’t… I don’t know full cost of attendance at each school, and you have to add travel in, but I bet there is a total of at least $50,000 difference in cost totaled over four years with her scholarships, maybe more.</p>
<p>If you really can afford all of them and don’t care about the money, then the next questions would be:</p>
<ul>
<li>Has she visited any/all of them?</li>
<li>Does she have plans to go back for accepted student visits? You can tell a lot from 24 hours on campus that doesn’t come out in a day visit, IMHO. And since they all meet the criteria that matter, it probably comes down to where she feels most comfortable.</li>
</ul>
<p>There is also the locale to consider. Macalester is in a small city. Brandeis is outside of Boston (and might be easiest/cheapest to fly to from overseas?) William and Mary is in the south and will, in general, have a more conservative student body than Bard, which is very progressive. Bard is in the country, in a pastoral setting near some small villages, but to get to the city one must take a train or drive quite a bit. It requires a few hours in transportation from the airports in New York City, so won’t be as simple to get to as a school like Brandeis. The size of these schools vary as well. For instance, Brandeis is bigger, and has grad students.</p>
<p>I’m sure the admissions departments would put her in contact with some current students who could address any questions she may have. She could/should also look at the course lists and descriptions of the classes. Sometimes the differences in colleges becomes more apparent once you look at the actual detail of what class you’d be taking.</p>
<p>Thank you very much for your replies!
Sorry, I am in a time zone to EST with 14 hours difference, so my replies will not be so prompt. </p>
<p>BrownParent
I felt exactly the same “It would be a hard choice as they all have their charms.” And I really hope my D will make decision based on her research and seeing how she fits.</p>
<p>Intparent
The first three criteria are from my experience in real world. I am working for a consulting company in Asia. To me, Critical thinking skill, writing skill, and presentation/discussion/debate skill are the most important skills after my daughter’s graduating a college no matter where she goes. Of course, knowledge of specialized area like economics or science is very important, too. But right now my D didn’t pick a major so hopefully she will decide within first 9 month so that she can at least take some of required course for the major at sophomore. </p>
<p>As for Collaboration with other colleges for organizing community service events, I didn’t mean to consortium. What she did in a high school was she worked as the main organizer with kids outside of her high school with help of NGO to have charity concerts. She really liked that and she wanted to continue mingling with other college folks. Yes, I agree that consortium strengthen collaboration among colleges. </p>
<p>As for cost, I figured out that there may be gap of $50,000 or little more. As a parent, I will commit paying for the college my D chooses regardless of cost differential since I believe pay-back could be much more than that if she becomes successful in long-run. (I am in middle class.)</p>
<ul>
<li>Has she visited any/all of them?</li>
<li>Does she have plans to go back for accepted student visits?
No she didn’t visit any college at all. We scheduled to fly to the U.S to visit all colleges for accepted student visits and we decided not to go. We figured out it is better for us to meet a couple of graduates from each college in person. So I helped my D to schedule them in the city we live in. I knew people might say how we could decide without paying any single visit at all…</li>
</ul>
<p>SpiritManager,
Very good point about the locale. I first didn’t pay attention much about the locale but more I think about internship or collaboration with other colleges, the locale become the point to consider. In the case, Brandeis is the most favored. </p>
<p>The size of colleges: Macalester 2,500 under grad, Bard 2,000 undergrads + 200 grads, Brandeis is 3,500 under grad + 2,000 grads, and William and Mary is 6,000 undergrads + 2,000 grads. However, professor and student ratio is between 10 and 14 in all undergrad colleges. Some college offers undergrad classes taken also by grad students, which is definitely plus.</p>
<p>As for course description, I favored more in William & Mary and Brandeis since I see their courses tend to be more comprehensive in a way probably geared graduate school curriculum in their own or other grad schools. Maybe it is depending upon major too as each college has her own strength.</p>
<p>Macalester is 28th, William & Mary is 45th, and Brandeis is 49th.
Does this mean Macalester supports to build up student’s readiness to good graduate schools better than William and Mary and Brandies?</p>
<p>OP, you’re splitting hairs here. These are all great schools. What it really comes down to is FIT for your child. </p>
<p>Based on her life experiences (living abroad as a US citizen), Macalester and Brandeis seem like the best fits to me. (UNLESS your daughter is in love with U.S. Colonial History–in which case W&M is hard to beat.). </p>
<p>Macalester is about the same size as Bard, but the former is located in a beautiful city, with tons of cultural opportunities, and is well-known for its international student body. She’d also have access to Minneapolis and the University of Minnesota if she so desired. Bard is going to feel more landlocked, artsier, and perhaps a tad more hipster/pretentious.</p>
<p>Brandeis is bigger, and located with access to a world-class city. Everyone I’ve ever talked to who went there loved it, but it’s not the prettiest campus, so if aesthetics are important to your DD it may not have that “wow” factor.</p>
<p>Is there no chance your DD can visit a couple of these schools before she makes her final decision?</p>
<p>No no. do not take it that it mean one make you more ready, that is reading too much in. Not all students are interested in PhD track. It isn’t right for everyone’s goals. The best information you can takeaway from that is that you don’t have to go to a university to be on such track. Even being on that list mean that there is support and readiness from any of those colleges. Brandeis may have more students interested in Med School. Students who want to be on PhD track can get there from all of those colleges. I did find that my daughter enjoyed having interaction with grad students at her college when she was a jr/sr. And she did take some grad classes as an undergraduate. I think that made going for the PhD seem like something she knew she could do and, doing research alongside them, to know that going into a PhD program was right for her. </p>
<p>some one might have mentioned it already or you know it already. I’ve heard students from William and Mary (a school tour, but not our tour guide of course) that they are bored to death and are in the process to transfer to schools in NYC. there is not much “city life” there.</p>
<p>If you are not going to visit, I suggest you use either the Fiske Guide to Colleges and/or the Princeton Review Best 378 Colleges to get a better gauge of the atmosphere at each college. US News really lacks the qualitative perspective. </p>
<p>iamatutor: students who are “bored to death” on a college campus as vibrant and energetic as W&M must have no imagination and zero initiative…
This is a general observation, BTW:
Sorry, but “bored to death”, unless you attend a college with fewer than 1,000 students in the middle of nowhere, reflects on the student, not the school. I’ve heard students complain like this at a variety of schools and it <em>always</em> reflected laziness on their part because you could find plenty lectures, concerts, free films, activities, and trips offered if you took just 5mn looking for them on the campus’ website or the college newspaper.</p>
<p>OP: based on what you said, I think Macalester and Brandeis would be the best fits, then W&M, and Bard last.</p>
<p>Go visit the school. Talk to other students, not just the tour guides. The ones we talked to told us that. and they are not talking about campus life, they are talking about “city life” (whatever that means, they are older than me!). That’s why they are transferring to NYC. Hopefully you are not looking for “city life”. To me, it means the school is not close to a major metropolitan city. I don’t know if it also reflects the internship opportunities that you can do during the school year, not just during the summer. Brandeis and Bard win for internship opportunities here.</p>
<p>Four outstanding choices but I agree that Brandeis and Macalester seem to offer the most on many levels, not the least being the proximity to airports and major cities. Bard has its charms although it is not the easiest place to get to and as it is not for everyone, nor is William and Mary, I cannot imagine selecting without a visit.</p>
<p>Regarding to Academics, summary is here in the order of my preference (I didn’t confirm with my D yet…) Some data retrieved from U.S. News. And Unigo</p>
<p>1) Brandeis: A research university with focus on liberal arts
The average freshman retention rate, an indicator of student satisfaction, is 93.5 percent. Student-faculty ratio: 10:1<br>
The professors are top in their fields.
There are a lot of small, intensive classes, along with ongoing research projects (especially in the sciences and social sciences).
Brandeis may have more students interested in Med School according to BrownParent.</p>
<p>2) William and Mary: A research university with focus on liberal arts
The average freshman retention rate, an indicator of student satisfaction, is 95.3 percent. Student-faculty ratio: 12:1
One of the nation’s oldest and most competitive liberal arts schools
Though, unfortunately, there are some professors that are relatively cut-and-dry, most professors that students encounter are very knowledgeable and passionate, which makes for an inspiring and positive classroom experience.
The smartest professors and students in public universities</p>
<p>3) Macalester: Liberal Arts College
The average freshman retention rate, an indicator of student satisfaction, is 94.5 percent.
Student-faculty ratio: 10:1
Students thrive in the small, discussion-based classes, which undergird Macalester’s challenging academic programs. Career Center doesn’t have extensive relationship with local corporations.</p>
<p>4) Bard: Liberal Arts College
The average freshman retention rate, an indicator of student satisfaction, is 87.8 percent.
The student-faculty ratio at Bard College is 10:1
Classes tend to be small and rigorous, focused more on class discussion than lecturing. Requirements are rigorous. In order to choose a major, a student must not only pass the department’s prerequisite courses but often do well on an entrance exam or project.</p>
<p>Regarding to location, summary is here in the order of my preference, (I didn’t confirm with my D yet…)</p>
<p>1) Brandeis is outside of Boston, a world class city, easy access to the BOS airport and lots of universities and with tons of cultural opportunities. Internship opportunities during school year seem to be available. It’s not the prettiest campus.</p>
<p>2) Macalester is in a small city, weather is very severe in winter, 15 minutes in transportation from all terminals. Easy access to Minneapolis with tons of cultural opportunities. Internship opportunities during school year seem to be available.</p>
<p>3) William and Mary is in the south and in the beautiful country, one hour in transportation from three airports. Students are able to learn colonial history of the U.S. Some students complained about “no city life”.</p>
<p>4) Bard is in the beautiful country with more landlocked feeling, a few hours in transportation from the airports in New York City</p>
<p>Regarding to student body, summary is here in the order of my preference (I didn’t confirm with my D yet…) </p>
<p>1) Macalester is known for accepting lots of international, 12%, out-of-states 70%. Many students are left wing liberal. 2,500 under grad </p>
<p>2) Bard is known for accepting lots of international 12%, out-of-state 53%, a tad more hipster/pretentious, liberal and very progressive. 2,000 undergrads + 200 grads. </p>
<p>3) Brandeis’s student body is 14% international, 59% out-of-states, 40% Jewish. Some said there is not much social scene inside the university. 3,500 under grad + 2,000 grads. Student-faculty ratio: 10:1 </p>
<p>4) William and Mary’s student body is 65% in-state. 4% international. Students are more conservative, and they described themselves open-minded, outgoing, charismatic, driven, dedicated, caring, and unique. 3,500 under grad + 2,000 grads. Student-faculty ratio: 14:1</p>
<p>LucieTheLakie
My hairs are kind of thinner and thinner year by year, so it’s not even good sign for me to splitting them:-)</p>
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<p>BrownParent</p>
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<p>LuckyPenny711</p>
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<p>MYOS1634</p>
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<p>iamatutor
Thanks. We decided not to. Instead I arranged my D to meet graduates of each college in our town.
So far, I talked people graduated from William and Mary, Macalester, and Brandeis. Only Macalester and Brandeis undergrads can get internship during school year. That’s definitely plus.</p>
<p>Bookmama22
Thanks. I agree all the things you said. Everybody here recommended us to go visit to colleges. </p>
<p>Someone said Macalester is in a “small city”, and you followed up with a similar comment. If you just look at the population of St. Paul that might be (sort of) true. But if that poster was familiar with the geography of the Twin Cities area, they would know that St. Paul mushes right up against Minneapolis; the downtowns are about 10 miles apart, and Mac is pretty much right between them on a major bus route. It is the 15th largest metropolitan area in the US, with a population of 3.4 million in the 2010 census if you include the surrounding suburbs. Mac is in a very nice neighborhood that is (IMHO) is one of the best in the Twin Cities. There is quite a bit to do, easy access to the rest of the cities, the neighborhood is quite safe, and isn’t all students. You are right that the winters are cold (but it is spring here today, about 60 degrees!).</p>
<p>IMHO, Macalester is in one of the greatest urban neighborhoods not just in the Twin Cities but in most American metropolises - old stately mansions on one side, greens, trees, restaurants, galleries, cafes, old cinema with a marquee… The closest I can think of is Park Slope, perhaps, or other picturesque areas of Brooklyn. A real asset for the college!
The Twin Cities are a major metropolis, second only to Chicago and headquarters to more Fortune 500 companies. Excellent public transportation. Easy access to bus stops for the winter, easy biking access in April-May and September-October.</p>
<p>I never visited Minnesota, so I took it from this post. OK, I checked Twin City at Wikipedia. Twin City is the 16th largest cosmopolitan area. (St. Paul is a small city 299K people). So it is pretty big. I changed the Macalester location profile in my record.</p>
<p>2) Macalester is in a very nice and safe neighborhood that is one of the best in Twin City, the 15th largest metropolitan area in the US, with a population of 3.4 million in the 2010 census, weather is very severe in winter, 15 minutes in transportation from all terminals. Mac has easy access to Minneapolis with tons of cultural opportunities. Internship opportunities during school year seem to be available.</p>
<p>Thanks, I again revised Mac’s location profile.</p>
<p>2) Macalester is in a very nice and safe neighborhood that is one of the greatest urban neighborhoods not just in the Twin Cities but in most American metropolises - old stately mansions on one side, greens, trees, restaurants, galleries, cafes, old cinema with a marquee. Twin City, the 15th largest metropolitan area in the US, with a population of 3.4 million in the 2010 census, has headquarters of many Fortune 500 companies. There is excellent public transportation. Mac has easy access to bus stops for the winter, easy biking access in April-May and September-October.15 minutes in transportation from all terminals, Minneapolis with tons of cultural opportunities. Internship opportunities during school year seem to be available.</p>
<p>My elderly D who is working in NYC sent my W & younger D (who is going to a college this fall) email said we should consider William and Mary seriously because of reputation and name recognition and Macalester is a sort of party school and Brandeis is mainly for Jewish, and Bard is for hippie…. ( maybe, friends of my elderly D could be quarky.)</p>
<p>I never found Macalester is a party school from my research. My D and I met a graduate who works for US based company here said great thing about Mac’s academic and classes are very challenging and very small number of students per each class. It was impassible to get decent grades without putting lots of study time spent outside of classes, one class had less than 5!</p>
<p>My D and I met a graduate who works for very prestigious financial company from Brandeis on last Monday said non-Jewish students have no problem to be treated equally by both the college and its students and he told us very good experience with his favorite professor who helped him lots….
My W still has negative image of Brandeis’s buildings that she claims looks old and “Is this a college?” even though My D don’t mind about the aesthetics. </p>
<p>Now my elderly D’s email influenced my W and younger D. My younger D said to me she still could not decide.
We are back to square one again…</p>
<p>I considered all four very hard in every aspect then I almost narrowed down to Macalester and Brandeis. </p>
<p>My recommendation to my D is Brandeis.
Academically challenging
Destination data looks pretty good
Undergrads can take grads classes if a major is offered in both undergrads and grads
Internship during school year can be arranged
People said to be very friendly
Suburb of Boston with lots of interaction with college kids and cultural activities</p>
<p>Something I worry about Brandeis
Financially straggled a couple of years ago and size of endowment is not big comparing to other schools in Boston
Dorm and food are rated low by its students
Many classes in Economics for example have 30 to 40 students in one class which I thought they should be around 20. </p>
<p>If you have any info or opinion which support my decision or not support (both are welcome), please kindly post your comment. </p>