<p>I remember a column William F. Buckely, Jr. many years ago citing data showing college graduates voting Republican as evidence of the benefits of education, and evidence that those with advanced degrees voted Democratic as illustrating the dangers of too much education.</p>
<p>By historical and international standards, it seems to me that the spectrum of mainstream political opinion in the U.S. is quite narrow. That may paradoxically add to the level of vitriol in political discussion.</p>
<p>Here's an interesting interview on this topic with Stanley Rothman, a Smith College Professor of some renown.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Rothman: I do believe that Joseph Schumpeter was right when he suggested that the left will dominate the academy in a bourgeois society because smart conservatives will more likely choose business as a career. Some liberals, with their usual modesty, think that businessmen are not as smart as academics. That is simply not true as any academic who plays duplicate bridge can testify. The game is very much like chess and I found, to my chagrin that I could not match some of the business men involved. Their memories and judgments were quite superior to mine.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>IMO, there is a difference between black-letter law and the conflicting theories underlying that law. For example, think of the Model Penal Code. The black-letter law of that would just be what various elements of homicide are. Before you kill your wife, you plan it out and you think about it -> first-degree murder. You kill your wife as you see her in the embrace of her lover who is half your age -> manslaughter. That's a far cry from what I was talking about. What I was discussing: the MPC is based on mens rea - i.e. on the idea that we should punish more heavily the people who are more "bad" in their thinking and actions. There are certainly imperfections, in that our idea of what is "bad" does not always correlate perfectly to a higher level of culpability. Do we then allow jurors to decide what is morally wrong? What are the problems with that system (such as jurors finding more fault with those who are of a different race or class or background, for example)? That's a good class discussion. Bad class discussion (exaggerated for effect): Death penalty is bad. It is wrong. That is why the MPC, which is the perfect codification of our human experiences, does not include it. </p>
<p>If you can't see the differences there... I'm sorry. Can't explain it any better. You can discuss the policy tensions in tort reform (problems with insurance premiums driving doctors out of business v. short-changing those who are horribly injured)... and my objection is to the professors who teach exactly one side of that debate as if it were truth. </p>
<p>Don't talk down to me, and I won't talk down to you. Clear?</p>
<p>By the way - ever been in a political minority? I know of people who have literally been beaten over their (conservative) beliefs. Good school or not, there are people who learn to keep their mouths shut for fear of ostracism or, yes, even violence.</p>
<p>...hum, probably the worst two examples I could have used, as you've worked for protection of class-action suits and death penalty reform. Hope you can get beyond that and understand what I'm trying to say.</p>
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<p>Seems to me like that kind of class discussion, if you're experiencing it, serves all the students equally poorly, not just the conservatives. The only way that the conservatives are specially disadvantaged when the professor does this is if they are punished with bad grades for articulating other viewpoints on exams, and you haven't stated that you have any evidence of that.</p>
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<p>That might be hard for you though, as you seem to be having fun talking down to me.</p>
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<p>Well, I admit that I did get a good laugh out of your implication that you were an actual live LAW STUDENT. But you are the only one here who has been throwing insults around. I pointed out that that the fourth-tier schools are the place to go to avoid discussion of political theory, which I stand by, and you reacted by calling me demeaning nicknames and impugning my intelligence, stating that I needed to start thinking critically, and to learn to read, and that I needed practice for life. But if you're going to cut that out, I won't press it further.</p>
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<p>ever been in a political minority?</p>
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<p>Yes, in fact -- I was in the minority at Bryn Mawr, where I was viewed as some kind of traitor in the service of the patriarchy because I was a capitalist and wanted to be at a co-ed school. I didn't think it was fun, but I also didn't view it as "brainwashing," and I didn't see any impact on my grades. If you're mainly talking about social ostracism, then that's a switch from the topic I thought was at hand (faculty pressure), but it's an interesting issue. As a libertarian, I assume that you aren't proposing some kind of institutional controls on who sits with whom at lunch or anything like that -- what do you propose that a school should do if it notices that a political minority is being ostracized socially (assuming that no school rules against threats or harassment are violated)?</p>
<p>Driver--thanks for the link & quote.
AriesAthena & Hanna--PLEASE take this to the cafe if you insist on continuing it.</p>
<p>Hana drops the H-bomb. My daddy told me, "You can always tell a Harvard man. But you can't tell him much."</p>
<p>Hanna, your reaction was extreme. Stating that I should attend a fourth-tier law school (by the way, I was a nanotechnologist before I started at a top-tier law school) was insulting to MY intelligence. Harvard or not, I do stand by what I said - your response was really out of line. It had nothing to do with your brainpower and everything to do with the way you expressed yourself. </p>
<p>Faculty, as paid professionals, should be able to teach. There are some who are very open about their political views but are able to teach both sides. You, as a real live lawyer, should know that one of the most important aspects of lawyering is learning to argue a side you don't necessarily agree with. I do favour more restrictions for private institutions than I favour for the government. As an example... a private college instituting a dress code does not bother me, but a public school doing the same (such as skirts/blouses, not the "no shorts cut to 1/100th of an inch below one's rear" dress code) is more offensive to me. Likewise, I think a private institution has every right (and a duty to the kids who are, as I stated earlier, paying more than a hundred thousand dollars for an education) to insist that its faculty members not use the classroom to air their political views and instead do what they are hired to do - teach the law (and legal theory).</p>
<p>Drop me an email if you would like real examples. I don't mean to patronize you (saying this because of the previous touchy conversation), but I ran a search on you and found out who you are - like name, address, phone number, firm you were at before you took leave for the year. Be careful. For my own privacy, I try to avoid mentioning certain things online - and one of those is the school I go to. As some people online know it, I would prefer not to mention the actual examples of what has happened there. Send an email or a PM if you must have real evidence. I am talking about faculty actions.</p>
<p>Your description of your Bryn Mawr sounds very typical of the experience at an all-girls school. One girl I know was derided for beinga "traditionalist" because she wanted to get married and had a long-term boyfriend. We could play "I had it worse" games, but I would prefer not to directly compare. Suffice to say that my options were keeping my mouth shut or being harassed or called stupid (more times than I can count). Absolute scorn for not following the liberal line. Never got that from professors though - as I said, engineering isn't very political. Law school is a different story.</p>
<p>Oh - final thing - professors do have the power to change your grade. Exams are graded blindly, but professors are allowed to bump grades up or down. Given that, and the mystery which accompanies the process, most students are reluctant to anger faculty in any way.</p>
<p>My comment about fourth-tier schools had everything to do with the indisputable fact that those are the schools that don't teach political theory, as all top schools do, and zero to do with your intelligence. You are reading that into the post.</p>
<p>If you didn't like the way I expressed myself, there are other ways to tell me besides ordering me to "learn critical thinking, dear" and all the rest.</p>
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<p>I ran a search on you and found out who you are - like name, address, phone number, firm you were at before you took leave for the year. Be careful.</p>
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<p>I'm not anonymous here, and as those who frequent other sites are aware, I've been "out" as myself and talking about college and law school admissions online since 1997. As I've never said anything I wouldn't be happy for the world to see with my name attached -- indeed, my name IS attached -- I don't believe I have anything to fear.</p>
<p>Hana of the "indisputable fact" could you scrounge up one or two actual datum for a change instead of simply demanding them from others? Then we will let a jury of hod carriers and barber college graduates determine if your datum actually amount to facts.</p>
<p>Sure. Here are just a few online sources talking about this phenomenon, which is the conventional wisdom throughout the law-student world:</p>
<p>Here's the UCLA paper noting that UCLA, like other top tier law schools, emphasizes theory, not black-letter law:</p>
<p>A publication aimed at future law professors, explaining that fourth-tier schools "are more likely to approach the teaching and study of law more like a "profession" and less like an academic or scholarly enterprise."</p>
<p>An article from the University of Virginia speculating that perhaps UVA's bar passage rate is lower than that of some lower-ranked schools because of "the fact that some lesser schools focus more on the black letter law needed to pass the bar, and less on the academic theory touted at the great law schools."</p>
<p>As an individual anecdote, this student from a mid-tier law school notes his thoroughly practical education, in contrast to the theory taught at "top" schools:</p>
<p>If you look at law student discussion sites, you'll see countless individual law students saying the same thing, but the mods here don't allow links to those other sites.</p>
<p>Academic theory can (and should) be taught from both (or all) sides. Not sure why biased political theory is being conflated with black-letter law....</p>
<p>I am glad that you are not concerned about your personal information being so readily accessible. I did write as many attorneys on this site are much more private - some of them do not even publicly post that they are attorneys (only privately, over PM or email). My concern was not for people in your life attaching your posts to your identity so much as, well, the crazy internet stalker types of the world knowing your name, address, and phone number. Anyway - your choice, just glad that such disclosure is actually a decision you made and not unintentional.</p>
<p>Redstar: don't know your kid, of course, but is it possible that his political views may change?</p>
<p>Idler:</p>
<p>Yes it is a possible. Being a liberal I would hope so. But if that happens I would miss our dinner table discussions that allow us to listen each others point of views.</p>
<p>Anybody ever notice that the only people in America required to do community service are prisoners and applicants to our elite colleges and universities? I live in a state that actually requires students to perform community service in order to get a diploma.</p>
<p>Hey Hanna why do I find it amusing that a UVa law student would blame his superior education for his failure to pass the bar exam?</p>
<p>I find it appalling how some people compare the racism of the south to the supposed oppression that occurs on college campuses. The conservatives are better organized than liberals at every level, this includes college campuses.</p>