UCB- agree with your point 100%, and this is a data-point which gets ignored on CC a lot.
If you are studying Classics or Ancient History at your small safety school you may be in a department of 8 undergrads and you may in fact feel that you are the only kid in the library on a Thursday night. Do the same at a flagship with 30,000 undergrads, and you won’t have the social isolation (as much) if you are prepared to extend yourself a bit- join clubs and organizations, etc.
I thought small STEM safeties weren’t hard at all. Lots of the smaller technical school had plenty to offer. Some even were connected with consortia that might have made up for the M/F ratios and the relative weakness in non-STEM coursework. I think it’s actually harder for a high stat non-stem kid who wants a small school, but want to be sure they’ll be challenged in their classes.
^^^Yes, but not every kid wants a small technical school. My kid wanted a good all-around LAC with strong STEM offerings. The best of them (with the most generous FA) have very low admit rates. The lower reach schools weren’t always the best fit, and the next tier down were out of our price range without big merit money. Very few great options and none that he “loved,” so he never even bothered to apply to most of the LACs we visited and he applied to zero tech schools.
That was me! I ended up going to my academic safety (Embry-Riddle Prescott) and absolutely loved it. Not only were the academics far better than I was initially expecting, but so was my overall experience there.
Needless to say, I think your comment is very appropriate, and I agree 100%. I wish more students would not simply blow-off their safety schools without further investigating them. They may be pleasantly surprised by what they find, like I was…
Yes, there is a poor appreciation of acceotance chances, Many of these kids have been in the top 10, 5, 1 % in a number of selection processes and still gotten there It’s difficult to get a handle on the scale of this and how few spots are truly open for so many who have the numbers.
Well, that’s pretty much been my kid’s experience as well, but it was most definitely “love in retrospect.” He did NOT love the school when it was merely filling the role of “safety.” It all worked out in the end, but it’s not a great feeling when you’re going through the admissions frenzy. As much as we may want our kids to “love thy safety,” love really isn’t something you can fake.
There are a lot of LACs that are safeties or at least matches for decent students and would even give money. But if you don’t fit in with the culture at the LAC, you may have a hard time. Of course, it depends on the kid, the school and the department. One of our in-states is more like a LAC, but with engineering. My son was considering it, but the very small department caused some concern. OTOH, the big state school is very big and the competition for things like research projects and even getting to know professors could be much more difficult.
Other kid received significant merit from two LACs, but decided the campus culture was too much like HS. He chose big state U, and found his “people” after a while, but was not as engaged by his courses. He probably would have been better off at one of the LACs, even if the diversity was not as great. Many kids feel lost at Big State Us with a dominant frat/sorority culture and find that club activities are not that well attended. Most can find firends, but it is still hard to be “different”.
I see what you mean Lucie. For a kid that doesn’t want a technical school, but wants good STEM offerings at a “match level”, smallish school, it can be tough to find. The small LAC schools have “STEM” but when you look more closely it is not much of a department with very few students and very limited research. For a kid that doesn’t want a strictly techy school, a small, affordable school with STEM can be tough to find.
Actually, I think there is money out there for top students. It’s just not necessarily at the schools they think they want to attend. Because of our financial situation, we were always “chasing the money” during this whole process, and more concerned about which schools would give enough merit aid for my son to attend. Interestingly, it’s not just the big publics and U of Alabama. A lot of wonderful privates like Tulane, U of Miami, U of Denver, Davidson, etc. have great merit scholarships that reward top students. In my opinion, these kids should stop chasing the prestigious ivies that clearly don’t value them anyways, and instead learn how they can use their high stats to earn merit money at these lower-tier, but still fantastic, schools. They have an opportunity that other students don’t have.
There are over 37,000 high schools in the United States. That’s over 37,000 valedictorians. They can’t all be accepted at an Ivy.
So, @PurpleTitan, yes, I think there is poor appreciation of acceptance chances. Just look at some of the CC posts from parents and students who cannot believe they were rejected from DreamU. A 3.9 GPA and 2200 SAT is truly wonderful, but there are lots of kids with better stats. It’s a big world out there.
37,000+ high schools. Let’s just say that only 1 out of every 10 high schools has a kid as wonderful as mine. That means he is one of 3,700. No one should be shocked by rejections!
Barfly, you don’t post a lot (well, not as much as, ahem, some of us), but I so often like what you post. I tell clients that all the time. Not only are there 37K valedictorians, but there are 37K editors in chief, and 74K senior drum majors and on and on and on … It’s just a numbers thing. Yes, rejection stings, but if you approach this with eyes wide open they shouldn’t surprise anyone.
Haven’t done as well by whose standards? Obviously not the AdComs. I know it is a great disappointment but as parents you are not helping when you are falling into the “you are still a special snowflake” mentality. Are people actually feeding into the kid’s “they got in but they did not do as well as me” thought process? Time to learn that in life there will always be someone brighter, stronger, faster, more popular, prettier, richer, etc. I know for some this is their first taste of this and as a parent I am sympathetic. But, since most of the people who “haven’t done as well” have certain hooks, there is a certain air of entitlement that they somehow took a spot that didn’t deserve.
If they don’t learn it now, they will truly learn it at whatever top tier school they end up at his fall because I am sure if they applied to an Ivy they have a stellar record and got in somewhere else great. Then they will be in my D’s boat when they learn the undeniable fact that they are no longer the “special kid” when everyone else around them is accomplished too. Learn it now, or learn it later, but it is a lesson that must be learned.
I was going to say the same thing – 37k high schools means 37k vals, 37k sals etc. I think most kids don’t quite get it. Most kids in the top 5 or 10% of their classes are big fish in small ponds; they’re not really interacting with other kids who are just as accomplished. Maybe 1-2 of those kids at every school are involved with a regional or state level activity, where they are seeing people just as talented as they are; and even fewer do anything like that on the national level. So while they can comprehend the stats – there’s a tendency to say, “I know being top 5% isn’t the very top for UPenn BUT I’m also a senior drum major with a lot of community service.” They don’t quite appreciate that while that’s great, there’s a kid who is living in rural Arizona who does all that high grades and is making some huge impact in their community.
As for GCs – I think it’s hit or miss. Heck when I was applying about a decade ago from a good district in Southern NJ, the GCs had no time or interest in offering suggestions then - esp outside the region; I can only imagine it’s worsened as classes have gotten bigger. I was from an area where 80+% of students went to Rutgers, Rowan, or some other in state. Those that didn’t go instate typically went to Penn State or Delaware; if they wanted private – Villanova and Drexel were top choices. I knew I only wanted an undergrad b school and I recall a meeting with my GC in 11th grade where parents were invited. I had done my HW and wanted to consider a number of schools and regions - I mention UVa’s business school (McIntire) as well as Carnegie Mellon and I still recall the GC looking at me like I had 3 heads and saying, why not go to Villanova?
Honestly at most schools if parents and students aren’t on top of the process, you’ll get herded to the local schools where most grads go OR you end up with kids who say – hmm I have a shot, let me apply to 15 of the top 20 and see what happens; and then they’re shocked that simply increasing the number of applications doesn’t change the results when you apply to a cluster of schools all looking for the same stats.
@chris17mom
A lot will depend upon your student and your specific budget. If you can afford your in-state flagship, you see what schools can meet or beat that number. If the flagship is too high, you look for the big merit awards. Part of the draw of the Ivies, and why they’re so competitive, is not just the prestige factor–it’s also that they can represent some of the only truly affordable options for a lot of families. Those privates a tier or two below them that offer the big merit awards are also deluged with applicants. So there’s often disappointment to be had there too. There are kids who were good enough to be accepted into or wait-listed at elite schools who didn’t earn the big merit award at Lafayette, for example. Lafayette without one of their big Marquis awards is completely unaffordable for a lot of families. But they’ve got Ivy caliber students applying, so they offer the big merit money to lure them away. Tulane and Miami MAY be affordable options, with enough merit money, but Davidson is very selective. I would think you’d need an Ivy profile to get big merit money from them as well.
@mom2and
We were surprised at how few of the LACs we visited had strong STEM options. Biology and chemistry and pre-med, yes, but math? Not so much. And engineering is really only offered at a handful of LACs, and most of them are in high demand and/or very expensive for “doughnut hole” families. It was rather deflating actually, but live and learn! 
I think kids make the mistake of thinking that the application pool has more unqualified students than it really does. So a kid thinks I’m in the top 1/4 of stats for Harvard, I’ve got a better chance than the admissions rate, when they probably don’t. I wish some of these top schools would actually publish the average stats of the ones they turn away.
This is so true. My son was the most advanced math student at his middle school. One year they made states for MathCounts. The kids in the top 10 then went to the auditorium and performed individually. Those kids could come up with answer to math questions before I even finished reading them! My kid was not up there with him - though at number 19 he did get his name on a slide of the top 20 scorers! 
The thing is…they ARE as good as the students who were accepted. I’ve posted a gazillion times that, especially at LACs, it’s all about “building a class.” My favorite analogy is that it’s like casting a high school musical. The director doesn’t just pick the 20 most talented actors, singers and dancers. (S)he has to fill particular roles.
At most high schools, more females than males will audition. That means a male will have better odds of getting a part than a female who is equally talented. (That’s a bit like most LACs.) The director may favor kids who have been in previous productions because (s)he is confident that the student will show up at rehearsals and and won’t panic in front of a live audience. (That’s a bit like the students who attend “known” high schools --high schools the college knows have prepared them well for college and whose GCs write honest LORs.)
Susie will get a role because her mom has made costumes for the past 5 shows and nobody else has stepped forward and volunteered. (Sort of like development cases.)
I think it’s tough when kids get rejected from their dream schools and see others who are NOT recruited athletes, legacies or URMs get in with worse stats than they have. …And, it happens all the time.
I am NOT saying this is unfair…I’m only saying that the kid who is a star in robotics might get rejected from MIT while the debate star gets in. (MIT has a good debate team.) Or the actor might get rejected from Yale while the robotics star gets in.
Kids and parents just don’t seem to “get” that if a college gets a lot of one particular kind of applicant and you’re that kid of applicant, your odds are a lot worse than you’d think just looking at stats.
I think activities like the one @mathmom mentions (where some kids at states can get a math answer before the question is even finished), give kids a sense of – wow there are some really talented people out there (academically) all over the state/nation etc. That’s a reality that most kids don’t grasp bc so few will get a chance at state, regional or national involvement for something academic. I know lots of kids from wealthier/upper middle class places or even regular old well to do (but not rich) places that tend to discount the rest of the nation; I have seen an attitude of – but I have taken a ton of APs at my high school in Bethesda or Long Island or North Jersey, who cares what kids in flyover country or in Arizona or New Mexico are doing. There isn’t always a realization that are lots of kids all over the nation doing equally awesome things and you can’t discount them – bc the Ivys certainly won’t.
*Actually, I think there is money out there for top students. It’s just not necessarily at the schools they think they want to attend. *
i know it is out there, I just didn’t take it seriously, and we did not look for schools that offered merit.One D did attend a school that met full need. For both we tried to pay FAFSA EFC but we did need them to take Stafford loans and to work summers and during the school year.
Our family takes loans when we need to buy a house, a car or attend college.(well my generation does, my grandparents paid cash for their house), so I am puzzled by students who expect that college should be managed without loans, or part time work.
When you run out of classes and challenges at a college, having excelled there, that is one of the best reasons for transfer and what a lot of top colleges seek in transfers. My neighbor was an excellent example of this. Mediocre grades and test scores in high school, went to a small Catholic college, got interested in art and graphic design. School had limited resources for it so she was queen bee there, getting all kinds of privileges and opportunities with underused facilities and materials. So she transferred into NYU, a school that was not even a consideration when she was in high school. I’ve met kids who transferred into top 25 schools that accept very few transfers with that kind of profile.
I recently went to a dinner in honor of grad from a small college that rarely shows up on CC. Their first Rhodes scholar, and she feels going to that school gave her opportunities and the platform to achieve as she did. She had been accepted to an ivy but wanted to stay local. She doubts very much that had she gone there, that she’d have had all the accolades and support that she got at a school where she was big fish in little pond. Yes, she ran into some of the limitations that the school had, but she got what she could later when she did go ivy for her post grad degrees. It was more of a plus for her than a negative.
Real people here.
For a lot of upper middle class and upper class kids, this is the first time they have ever been denied something that they want or feel that they deserve. It is a difficult awakening that they can’t have everything they want.