Do you mean “ivies” in those soecific 8 schools or do mean “Ivies” as a shorthand for top schools in general? Because it’s odd to think that the ivies themselves are magical.
I have not lost sleep over my own kids’ failures to get into first choice schools, so I, for one, am not losing sleep over any kids this year, and really any year that didn’t get into any school. It’s just not that important. But I do sympathize. It’s difficult, if not impossible to control ones feelings, so if kids and parents are hurting, it is often a reaction. Not one they could help. My son’s best friend and the friend’s mother well knew the odds, and when said kid was applying to his top choice ED and second choice EA, he well knew they were among the most tip top of selective schools, and they felt they could handle a rejection/deferral just fine. Even said they did not expect and accept. The reality was different. It hurt. Whatever reasoning, whatever sense, whatever… went out the window with the blow that just hit them where it hurt with nothing they could do to stop that immediate rush of pain. I am certain kid will do just fine where ever he goes. He’s a winner, has the combo of brains and preserverance, great person as well, so I don’t hesitate an instant in saying that he will do well. But yes, it did hurt that he did not get what he wanted. It’s not even a hard lesson in life. It’s one already known, but the pain of impact was unexpected, and how to prepare for that, I don’t know. I’m hurting terrible, and got hit hard on something a lot more serious, but something I knew well in heart and head was going to happen. Still the pain is great, and mitigating it is not happening regardless of what I try.
@Much2learn, how did you obtain the data on hooks for your analysis? I’m assuming it wasn’t on Naviance.
The reality is that kids would not apply if they didn’t think they had a chance, no matter how small. Maybe they don’t expect admission, but they certainly expect admissions to read their file and make a decision. When they receive a rejection, their hope is gone, which can render pain no matter how much you expected to get rejected.
However, I also think that many students are misinformed when applying to these top-flight schools. CC is a very small sample of applicants and parents. I’m currently a senior in high school, and neither of my parents went to college. I go to a rural public high school with a graduating class of a little less than 200 that very rarely sends students to Top 20 schools (I know of only about 3 within the last several years). All of this combined, the application process to top schools was very new to me. I navigated through the entire thing mostly through CC. If I had never found CC, though, I could have easily been misinformed about many things. When I got accepted to my ED school, my college advisor was not even aware that I had to withdraw my other applications. She wanted me to wait and see where else I got accepted before I made my decision, despite the fact that I applied ED.
While CC made me very cognizant of what an 11% acceptance rate really means, I had people telling me left and right that I’d have no problem getting in, including my teachers and GC. Not only did they seemingly look past the acceptance rate, but they didn’t care that my scores were in the 25th percentile. I imagine this type of thing is not uncommon, which is why so many students have expectations. Referring to my initial statement, I never expected to get in. I thought there was no possible way that they would choose this kid who comes from a relatively poorly performing school, but of course I still wanted to get in, and I’m sure a rejection still would have hurt because it simply would have meant that it was over.
Actually, I have not lost any sleep over this issue–not even when QMP was applying. I agree with cptofthehouse’s post #123 (with some addenda, not needed here).
To put things a different way: Suppose that the Las Vegas oddsmakers assembled a group of 100 Harvard applicants who had no hooks, but had 2350+ SAT I’s, 2350+ SAT II’s (3 tests), 3.97+ UW GPA’s, a reasonably large number of AP’s, several post-AP courses, strong EC’s (though nothing glow-in-the-dark), essays that were good (but not stand-out), and letters of recommendation that were typical for such students–but no major hardships overcome, no spectacular leadership nor spectacular community impact, awards at a state or regional level or XX semi-finalist, but nothing national, and an interview that was very good.
If enough people would be willing to go along with PG and bet that no more than (say) 14 of this group would be admitted to Harvard (to allow for some statistical noise around 10%), then I think the Las Vegas bookies would clean up.
Please note: This comment is not meant to encourage gambling! I don’t gamble. However, I think it puts the meaning of the odds in sharp relief.
Having no chance and having a small chance are two very different things. Some of these top kids have gone for things where their chances were very small, and they got them, some every single time. What is difficult to grasp is the magnitude of qualified applicants. That’s where the issue gets blurry. Along with a misunderstanding of how ECs are rated if a student is not nationally ranked in something or a recruited athlete. That it doesn’t matter much if one can play on a college team, if there is no recruiting mechanism putting the kid in a preferred pool, and that being tops in a community, a school community is not gong to get you more than a 3 out of 5 in a 5 point top school ranking. My son was very upset with me when I gave him his “grade” for highly selective schools, as he is a 3.9 unweighted, student with high 2200s SAT1, taking most difficult courses, and very active in school events. I didn’t dare give his close friend’s mother and another person, any such assessment, or they’d have been insulted. The fact of the matter is that very few essays, recs and ECs get out of the three range, and most everyone is in the 4, 5 ratings academically. It’s really difficult to get into the 90 range of those ratings. And that’s what’s usually needed for an accept if you are not in a special pool for admissions.
Re cptofthehouse #127: I am truly sorry for your pain–my sympathies. I am also sorry for the pain of your friend’s son.
This is an extremely helpful thread as DH and I help DD (a junior) to sort out her options. Sincere thanks to all for their thoughtful posts and the respectful tone of the discussion.
@Elizabeth1315, I had to read your post twice - your maturity and perspective are way beyond those of most HS students - from the first paragraph I assumed you were a wise parent, not a current HS senior. I’m glad that you did find CC and were able to receive helpful advice throughout the application process. Congrats on your ED acceptance. I’m sure you’ll go very far in life and I wish you great success!
@QuantMech, which local area? Harvard (like some other elite privates) has a known home bias when it comes to admissions. Definitely towards kids in Boston & Cambridge (so those kids are definitely hooked); possibly the whole Boston area.
One thing, which is kind of hard for a lot of kids to swallow, is that even though you really like a college (or think you really like a college), you still might not fit what the admissions committee wants. I have a lot of friends who applied to schools that truthfully did not fit their personality. A lot of kids set their heart on schools that just don’t fit them and then get disappointed by it. I have friends whose definitions of nerdy means sitting at their computer for 5 hours on a Friday night browsing Reddit or some other forum. That is not what USC, MIT, Caltech, etc. meant when they asked you about how you’re a nerd/geek. I have friends who have decided that they’re going to apply for computer science at Cornell or some other top school because they think they’ll make a lot of money doing that and they like playing video games.
Getting rejected from certain colleges has been the best thing that could have happened for some of my friends. They would not have mixed at all with the general atmosphere of the school. Even though there is a school for everyone, it’s not always the college that he or she imagined attending.
If your stats, ECs, essays, etc. all reflected who you are as a person and you didn’t get into your #1 college, consider it a good thing. I know that might sound counter-intuitive, but for people who are legitimately top candidates for a college that didn’t get accepted, a rejection is possibly the best thing. If the admissions office saw that your test scores, essays, activities, and overall application made you a really good candidate for the school but in the end decided you weren’t a fit, you probably are better off not going to that college.
Tip to any juniors or underclassmen reading this post: please don’t try to make yourself fit a college’s idea of an “ideal” applicant. If your personality doesn’t fit a college, you probably won’t enjoy that college.
My locality is nowhere in the East, PurpleTitan.
@chris17mom, tell your son that at least one poster on CC (and no doubt other kids as well) actually turned down Ivies acceptances for Richmond with money. If he got in to one of the programs I’m thinking of there, they seem pretty darn amazing in terms of the opportunities they provide.
My daughter is in the same boat. She is number three in her class . Numbers 1, 2, 4, were all admitted to ivies and she was not. Also numbers 8, 11, 15 got accepted with hooks. It makes is wonder if her application was bad. But she knew her chances of getting into an ivy and she wasn’t that interested anyway, in fact she is proud of being Wai listed at Dartmouth. The lowest point of the process though , was she she was wait listed from what was supposed to be a safety and one that she visited and liked. When the apps say that you have a 90& chance of admission and you don’t get admitted, that is when they become painful. Fortunately the next day she was admitted to one of her reach schools.
@PurpleTitan Thanks, I feel exactly the same way, and I think he will come around. His big concern in just that Richmond is not well-known for Computer Science. But it’s a great school, a great program (yes, it probably is the program you are thinking of!), and I think it will work out just fine, when he comes to his senses! 
@QuantMech, the question then, is, how many kids in your area have the profiles of those who did get in to H? Also, from the outside, it may be difficult to tell if someone is hooked or has some talent/experience/spark/whatever that they showed on their app.
I just shake my head at some schools that folks consider as “safeties”. There should be another term for that category, like “likelies” with safeties being redefined as schools that are certainly to take a student. Not schools with 50% accept rates that I see on lists, or schools that are considered selective in many assessments. Yes, such a school would be a safety, if it becomes one due to EA or rolling admissions, but they are absolutelty not safeties, in general. Already this year, i personally know, and that’s not counting stories on this board, of kids WLed and denied for their safeites. I ask what that school is and I want to do a face palm. So arrogant, IMO, knowing the numbers. A lot of kids at son’s schools were denied using UMich as a safety this year, as that school WLed just about everyone there when the Navient info pointed to near sure entry for those kids in previous years.But still, until accepted UMich is not a safety, not for OOS anyways.
Well, showing spark on the application is unknowable to me. But the student population in the area is relatively stable from elementary school through high school. Families in our area are either more interested in each other or nosier about each other–take your pick–than PG’s family (based on her past posts), and there are few totally hidden talents or experiences, though no doubt, there are some.
The Harvard admits have all been great students, no question about that, but few were glow-in-the-dark. There is some self-selection going on with the applications, but my estimate of 35% is a reasonable, rough estimate of how it has been working out, here.
But a fat chance and a slim chance are the same thing.
@Youdon’tsay as far as “the system not asking for this” I am not sure where the system begins and ends but my DS has had experience with at least one teacher writing him off because he would not participate in the madness. His ECs and AP course load did not allow for the hours (yes hours) of homework this teacher expected each night so my son resigned himself to a B. Well he has the B but also was not recommended for the next course. He will be taking the “lesser” next course as a senior. He is fine with it but I can see how others may not be.
In the case of the 90% chance safety, I would suspect her application might have been seen as “too good,” and they were protecting their yield. They may have assumed she applied there as a safety, and pre-emptively didn’t accept her knowing she probably wouldn’t choose them anyway.
Just a guess!