<p>And then you graduate and start auditioning for paying jobs. It certainly does not end unless you can build up enough of a reputation that the jobs start coming to you.</p>
<p>Accidental duplicate post deleted by BassDad.</p>
<p>This is definately not a road for the weak hearted....But my DD can't think of anything else
she would rather do....so on we go! Guess we'll always have that spare bedroom if she needs it :)</p>
<p>Re prescreenings:</p>
<p>The discussion of "interesting" ( or seemingly nonsensical) presecreen voice results on the previous page was good to see. I'm aware of a few similar unexpected/unexplained violin prescreen results over the last several years as well. As more and more schools require prescreens, I'm sure there will be more "strange" results. I don't know how voice faculties typically work, but I do know that several of the "top" conservatories have graduate students heavily involved in screening the violin prescreens. I understand that schools must work this way, but have wondered if that has resulted in some of the unexpected prescreen rejections.</p>
<p>Well, my D just received her notice that she passed the pre-screening at Eastman- at least we don't have to worry about travel arrangements for that one! By the way, if anyone needs any info on the Rochester area, such as hotels, places to eat, etc, feel free to PM me and I'll be glad to help you. There is an especially nice "Authentic English Pub" here in town, staffed by students from the UK, which is great place to chill out...</p>
<p>My daughter told me today that she had somehow overlooked her MSM email--she passed that prescreen as well!</p>
<p>Sounds like some of us should get together and invest in a rental property to house our kids in between schooling/jobs! One thing we are all sharing is the sense of frustration with the waiting game and the seemingly inexplicable choices that result. I have a theory that I'd like to present and see if it is pervasive in other areas. I certainly don't want to anger or upset anyone but I have to get this out...
If a student was earning 70s in math and science would she be encouraged to apply to MIT? How about low marks in English and History coupled with poor scores on the writing sections of the standardized tests- should he aim for admission to Georgetown and a career in International Relations?And the scouts for the Olympic Development Program in soccer are most assuredly not checking out the kids who are playing in weekend rec leagues. For the past few years, I have noticed a very disturbing trend for students in the performing arts and it is getting worse, not better. It began in the Musical Theatre area and is now spilling into Vocal Performance with no end in sight. Girls who have a year or less of voice lessons under their belt, who have no clue of what is needed in theory,aural skills or music history, and most importantly, can't even match pitch much less sing in any style that doesn't imitate High School Musical are sending in up to a dozen applications not to small,liberal arts colleges where they could take music courses while majoring in another field, but to major conservatories like Julliard, Eastman, Manhattan, Hartt, Oberlin, NEC, BoCo, etc. These kids have the funds to apply to up to a dozen schools and to have a CD professionally made and even re-mixed (uh-oh...), and, of course, since they didn't read the rules, their envelopes were submitted at the last possible moment, postmarked on December 1st! Did I mention that often their grades were not up to standard and wouldn't pass the standards for academic admission? Their applications and CDs go into the pile and the people have to go through them with the same consideration that they put into those which our kids submitted. I can't wrap my head around the idea that the school guidance counselors permit this to occur and are aided by a few faculty members so how can I begin to understand that there are independent music teachers out there who are not being honest with their students or their parents. They have to have knowledge of this process since they also write letters of recommendation.This isn't fair to anyone involved- it's hard enough to see the arts programs cut and the budgets slashed, but this shows such a lack of respect for the professions our kids are choosing- just thinking about it all makes me upset. Can anyone else contribute their thoughts on this?</p>
<p>My D got her NEC invitation today. Unfortunately, it was for Feb. 27. Her school is doing Sweeney Todd that day and she not only has some key ensemble parts but is Assistant Music Director as well.</p>
<p>I'm sure hoping we can talk them into moving her to Feb. 20 since she's doing BoCo the next day.</p>
<p>I think Mezzo's Mama raises some interesting questions which I have utterly no basis to agree with or refute. Most of the more exclusive schools have established pre-screening programs to try to weed out the under-qualified individuals. So the main cost to the school is rolling through the pre-screening CDs and dealing with all of the excess paperwork. I suspect that the faculty reviewing the CDs are able to weed out very quickly most, if not all, of the under-qualified folks. The bigger problem is that there may be plenty of "qualified" sopranos applying to a top school which has very few slots. The inevitable result is that the school's decisions may start to seem random to us amateur, interested bystanders. I guess that I figure that is the way it is and that is why the schools ask for a screening CD. Does anyone have any evidence that unqualified folks slip through the pre-screening phase at a top conservatory because the CD is doctored?</p>
<p>I have no direct evidence of the sort Juggling Mom requests, but I do know that many conservatories and schools of music are starting to require videos instead of audio CDs, I assume because videos are much harder to edit undetectably or to be used to pass off another's work as your own. That tells me that the schools have enough evidence to be worried about the possibility of cheating with recordings. Obviously, getting through the pre-screening phase by cheating will not help much if one cannot deliver the goods at the live audition, but I imagine some applicants feel that they will be able to improve in the time between the pre-screen and the live audition.</p>
<p>Don't blame the school guidance counselors. For the most part, they are even more clueless about music school admissions than the kids with a year of voice lessons under their belt. Most public school GCs may have heard of Juilliard, but have probably never had one of their charges apply there. Other than that, they could probably not name another one of the top performance programs and cannot be expected to be gatekeepers. In terms of academics, GCs are likely being told that all that matters is the audition (which is even true at some places). Almost all of them have experience with student athletes who have gotten into highly selective schools with less than stellar grades, so they are willing to let the student give it a shot. GCs do what they do based on what the other 99.5% of the students need. All you can expect from them in terms of music schools is that they get the paperwork where it needs to be when it needs to be there. Things may be different in a private school, or in magnet schools for the arts, but the majority of GCs out there do not work in those environments.</p>
<p>There is no license or standard of education required to set up as a private music teacher. All you have to do is keep the person paying for lessons happy. While the vast majority of music teachers that I know are dedicated, highly talented, conscientious professionals looking out for the welfare of their students, there are some out there who are in it only for the paycheck. They will say anything or write any number of rave recommendations just to keep the student coming back. There are also some that simply do not recognize their own incompetence and cannot tell decent from good, or good from great.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, that means that there will always be some number of students applying to programs at which they have no prayer of being accepted. When they play by the rules, it does not take much time to weed them out. That is usually where it ends for the clueless ones. Those who realize that they have to cheat on a pre-screen waste a bit more of the school's resources and a lot more of their own to get shot down at the live audition. If they cheat on an actual audition recording, they may cost a more deserving student an offer of admission and they certainly waste much more of everyone's resources until the fraud is detected by the applied teacher and the student is either dismissed outright or forced to switch majors.</p>
<p>It is true that some people cheat. I have no idea how many, but I do remember that at this time last year there was a young man (I think a violinist) who admitted to splicing his pre-screening CD. He argued vociferously with those of us who disapproved that it was okay because he would be great at the live auditions and just wasn't ready in November (as though he was the only one and had some priority). I don't know how he did, but he got through all his pre-screenings. This is an unfortunate reality, but there are kids who cheat on their SAT's. I also understand that there is a small industry in some foreign countries of people who will take your ESL exam for a fee. Nevertheless, if you have a kid who's really good and talented and works hard, they will be accepted at a good school - perhaps not every school, but a good one even though they might not speak English at all. It is highly unlikely that an unqualified musician will end up being accepted at a Julliard given the difficulty of the live audition which noone can fake their way through. </p>
<p>I agree with BassDad about the GC's. Even in private schools (unless music academies), they know little or nothing about music schools and are mostly useless. You need to rely on your music teachers (private, orchestra or choral director, etc) for this kind of guidance. You can't really blame them as so few kids apply to music schools.</p>
<p>Congratulations to all those who passed these pre-screenings. What a talented group we have this year!</p>
<p>I do think that one small part of this issue is that general guidance counselors do not understand who should and should not be applying to conservatories in the same way that they can look at grades and scores and tell you what colleges you should be aiming for. But, even in the field of applications to non-music schools, there are still kids who shoot "higher" than their records, and who should tell them not to do that if they want to? It's a free country, right? </p>
<p>I think most musicians understand that conservatories are like Ivy League colleges: even if you fit the profile, the number of available spots is exceeded by the number of qualified applicants. That being said, in my short experience of three or four years following the pool of jazz musicians in our local area, the really dedicated and gifted students get into at least one strong music program. I have not witnessed any huge rejections leaving someone adrift or in a place much below their expectations.</p>
<p>Aren't applications burgeoning in every corner of the college world? This is a bubble in the population of young people.</p>
<p>I think it goes beyond just the population bubble. It also has something to do with reinforcing positive self-image taken too far.</p>
<p>I recall one middle school principal who insisted that all the kids had to lip synch the eighth grade show rather than sing because he was unwilling to let anyone be excluded from a main role on the basis of insufficient talent. Then he was dismayed when most of the talented ones dropped out of the show for parts in a community theatre production. He couldn't understand why they would do such a thing.</p>
<p>Re guidance at high schools, DS is at a private high school (boarding and day) that has an arts emphasis, but diversified among theater, dance, visual and music. I don't think that they very often have someone interested in a strict conservatory environment. In recent history one person has gone to Oberlin Con in Jazz. As a result, the guidance operation has not been particularly useful to us, other than for the "essay writing weekend." It is very helpful for those pursuing LAC's. </p>
<p>Therefore, I have found that I and DS have needed to get real smart about the process to be competitive with those who have support more in the know -- those in the big cities with connections to the major conservatories. I do think, though, that we have had reasonably good guidance about where to shoot for, although, neither DS or I were sure until we went out and did some interviews with faculty and got their reaction. So, quite honestly, we have learned an awful lot from reading the CC discussions for Music Major, and are truly grateful for all the people that support and participate in this group.</p>
<p>Interesting discussion and I agree with many of the points made. </p>
<p>To those still waiting, the wait is often the hardest part. Good luck to all, and congrats to those past stage one.</p>
<p>The general lack of knowledge of the quality, depth, variations, and sheer number of high level performance/music programs among gs's is part of the problem. Couple that with often hs music teachers may be too far removed or unaware of many of the options themselves, so advice from that area can also be lacking. Info provided may well be outdated, based on their own experiences decades past, or simply hearsay. The nuances of the differences in weighing talent and academics at the various institutions and programs is mindboggling.</p>
<p>Add to it the inabilty of almost all parents to analyze and evaluate their own kid's talent, musicality, level of outside participation and potential and the problem is compounded.</p>
<p>Not seeking objective professional assessment of the student's skill sets across a couple of sources (performing pros, collegiate level faculty) serves to exacerbate this further. </p>
<p>In some areas, paucity of local resources or financial considerations may make this process difficult even if one wants to exercise "due diligence".</p>
<p>Some people are enamored with "THE NAME", and the associated perceived prestige of the letters carved in the stone edifice. </p>
<p>Some are driven to bend the rules, and manipulate recordings, or substitute someone else's work for their own. Echoing stringfollies, there has been more than one discussion on the forum about "iffy" recorded submissions. It happens. I'd wager most are detected durng the process, and for those that may not be, deficiencies will be detected once the real work begins. DVD's are becoming far more common, and it would not surprise me if this in response to an increasing number of questionable submissions or past experiences at the institutions requiring them. </p>
<p>It's a daunting process, with many pitfalls even for the well intentioned and well informed. I could not imagine having to do this without the benefits of the internet.</p>
<p>Hey everybody, I still haven't heard back from NEC any ideas why? I applied as a composition major if that helps...</p>
<p>macbookdude, don't know if you saw this post <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1061636411-post147.html%5B/url%5D">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1061636411-post147.html</a></p>
<p>According to the timeline stated, they are still in the process of responding today and tomorrow.</p>
<p>Hi everyone--</p>
<p>We'll start sorting through our prescreening recordings tomorrow. It will take about a week. Some things that have been said on here make me want to chime in with at least one college admissions perspective. </p>
<p>With a high-profile election year behind us, one term that sticks with me is "low information voter." It's perhaps a polite euphemism, but there you have it. I wonder if "low information applicant" would stick were I to use it with my colleagues...</p>
<p>Here at Bard we do receive applications that are well below any reasonable standard of pre-professional training. And there are many reasons for this, to be sure. Some of it can be the big fish/small pond syndrome, in addition to the reasons already cited (too much "you can do anything you want" self-affirmation, poor guidance counselor input, or in our case, the idea that stellar academics will somehow compensate for so-so musical achievement). </p>
<p>As for input from private teachers, I'd say the overwhelming majority avoid any kind of malpractice, are candid in their recommendations (either explicitly or, in some cases, implicitly, by writing a bland, two sentence rec), and over time develop a better understanding of each school's unique quirks through trial and error. But some times they also feel pressured. I actually had a teacher phone me yesterday, saying s/he (don't even want to reveal the gender, so I guess I'll use "they" from now on...) is under pressure to help someone put in an application last-minute to us, but they know this individual isn't really ready. They're feeling incredible pressure from the student, but don't want to damage their "reputation" with us should they decide to send us another student in the future. </p>
<p>My advice to them, and by extension to others, is to let the schools decide. If someone really really wants to apply to Juilliard, even though s/he can hardly carry a tune, and won't listen to reason, then let Juilliard finally help this person understand where s/he would fit best. I suspect Ivy League schools have this same problem, and as it's a free country ("low information voters" still vote), there's nothing that can be done. As for creating an enormous backlog, it doesn't take long to eliminate someone who's playing Suzuki Book 5 on the prescreening CD, so to speak. It's actually incumbent on the top schools, those that receive 10-15 applications for each opening, to staff their operations in such a way as to make the whole process as smooth and efficient as possible. </p>
<p>We're moving towards DVD format as well. Right now it's "preferred"; in a few years we hope to phase out CD altogether. The initial impetus for this came from the teachers, actually, and solely for pedagogical reasons (to see an applicant's hands, posture, bow arm, etc.). Our secondary consideration was that we hope the DVD format would be easier on applicants. A Sony Handicam, and a computer with a DVD burner, seem easier to come by these days than nice/expensive recording equipment, or booking expensive studio time. I'm actually curious to know your thoughts on this. Cheating occurs but come audition time there is no where to run, and no where to hide, so that was only a secondary consideration. Finally, we actually waived prescreening for one applicant who has a stellar YouTube channel--we saw everything we needed to see right there. So perhaps that's another direction the future may take us.</p>
<p>I tell everyone I meet to use this message board as a guide to making wise decisions. Keep up all the great work you do. (Anyone here read "The Wisdom of Crowds"?)</p>
<p>I've also just written something on our admission blog about prescreening. It may be of interest to some of you, as I detail our process, and what we're looking for in our instrumentalists and composers:</p>
<p>I wonder if the amazing level of information we have been privy to here will soon make its way more into the mainstream. There is definitely a vacuum of guidance for those seeking arts education. Stringdads, a book?</p>
<p>jazzmomm, an interesting idea. I think the problem is that this sort of information rapidly goes out of date. The value of this CC discussion is that we get a lot of real time info as well as some of the more overarching topic areas.</p>