Prestige of undergraduate school?

Graduate School Law School
101

<p>Having spent many years on the hiring committee of a major Boston firm, I’d like to try to help by clarifying a few things:

  1. The law school matters a lot. In sorting through thousands of resumes for few summer associate positions (the normal process is to hire for summer internships after 2L, with full time offers extended to most of those at the end of the summer), basically proficient HLS students will get at least a first interview, while you would have to be top 25% of class/law review at BU Law and we would almost never even consider a New England Law student absent a compelling hook such as a great hard science background for patent practice. And yes, Yale is just different - if a Yale law student wants a job, it is available. Also, take a look at any big Boston firm’s website and note the law schools of the partners (not the associates, most of whom will not be offered partnership). Less so than 30 years ago, but it is still a bit of a gentlemen’s club that looks out for its own.
  2. Undergrad school matters for law firm jobs. The first thing we look at is the law school and 1L grades/rank, but the undergrad school jumps out of the resume as well. You may not think it fair, but Ivy helps your chances, BU/Northeastern doesn’t really hurt, and UMass Boston or Bunker Hill does hurt. In the end, we are looking for bright intellectually curious young people and believe the undergrad environment shapes that significantly.</p>

<p>More importantly, please don’t choose a lesser school because you think you can be a star and increase your chances of getting into law school (my daughter is going through the same analysis re: impact of her choice on medical school odds and I am giving her the same advice). Law school applications are way down because it has become increasingly difficult to find the high paying employment that caused applications to skyrocket in the late 80s (there are a lot of reasons for that, including higher billing rates, the nationalization of practices, and clients’ resistance to paying for the training of new associates). There is a very good chance that those thinking law school now won’t be in four years. Also, those successful in the law, and successful in getting law jobs (and I believe good jobs in other fields) are those who are competitive and confident enough to trust their ability to succeed in the most rigorous environments. Pick the school where you think you will be challenged, where you will have the best faculty challenging you, and where you will have the best facilities in which to be challenged (and in which to have a fun college experience, i.e., work hard, but enjoy what should be the best years of your lives). </p>

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<p>@BostonLawyer - So do firms take into consideration the financial aspect of making a decision regarding undergrad - because while I was admitted to Brandeis, Northeastern, BU, BC, etc - they’d all entail an upwards of 80k in debt or more over four years - a lot more if my award is lowered for whatever reason in subsequent years. My parents combined salary is 100k - they really cannot handle cosigning massive loans for me - nor do I think it wise to hamper myself with a ton of debt before even stepping foot in grad school. Would you advise transferring during UG to a more reputable institution if possible? </p>

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<p>preamble1776 - I think I generally assume students attend the best school to which they are admitted and can’t recall ever thinking about whether a candidate may have attended a particular school for financial reasons. I wouldn’t presume to advise whether or not incurring substantial undergraduate debt is wise; I suspect the answer depends in part on particular family financial circumstances, confidence in future earning power, and what you are giving up in educational quality for financial reasons. I would note, however, that if you fear incurring debt (and I’m not saying such fear is misplaced) law school is likely to be a problem. It is not free, I don’t believe there is much, if any, financial aid available for law school (at least I don’t think there was any back in my day), and, as noted in my earlier post, employment prospects for all but the top students are pretty grim these days. I know nothing about how transferring works, and don’t know what less “reputable” school you plan to attend, but would question a plan to decline admission to a good school and transfer later to save money.</p>

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<p>@BostonLawyer - I think it’s weird that people never really think of that because almost everyone at my high school in the top 10% only attend schools that they can afford comfortably (read: UMass, Salem State, and Bridgewater) - the only time students really ever attend the best school they’ve been admitted to is if they manage to get into a hyper-generous ivy like Harvard - otherwise, it is extremely common for most kids to turn down Northeastern, Boston University, Tufts, Boston College, etc for UMass Amherst/Boston/Lowell or Salem/Fitchburg/Framingham/Bridgewater State solely because of money issues - we’ve been advised to do this not only to prevent general debt but also to be mindful of grad school costs. </p>

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<p>BostonLawyer, thank you for your very helpful and insightful posts.</p>

<p>So, what I’m understanding is that if you go to Yale, you will get basically any job you want, literally? If I went to Yale and wanted to work at Choate or Goodwin Procter, I’d just walk in and be offered a job, regardless of how well or how badly my interviews went? I don’t doubt it, but am I understanding your post correctly?</p>

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<p>There’s a difference between undergrad and law school.</p>

<p>There was no way I was giving an ivy league school massive amounts of debt-funded cash when I had a full ride and additional surplus scholarships to go to a state school.</p>

<p>However, it was crystal clear that you were expected to go to the best law school you got into, and this was back in the 1990’s.</p>

<p>In law, you are generally presumed to have attended the best school you could get into, so I took out over $100k for a T14. This was back when there was still a good market for initial hires.</p>

<p>I would try to avoid even the T14 today given the high risk of unemployment with massively increased expenses unless I had a full scholarship.</p>

107

<p>

That is markedly different from my experience (albeit in the 1990s) in a middle-class suburb of Massachusetts: almost all of the top 10% went to name-brand schools, and those who turned down schools like Tufts and Wellesley only did so to attend on full-ride or half-ride to places like WUSTL, Northeastern, Vassar, BU, etc. A few did the honours college at UMass Amherst, but most of our top 10% went private, either full-pay or merit ride. </p>

<p>Have things changed that much since the '90s?</p>

108

<p>@ariesathena‌ - I can tell your right now (as a senior in a middle class suburb in MA) that most of the students in the top 10% of the class (read: 45 out of 50 students) will be attending a public - the only ones who aren’t are the ones who managed to get into Brown or Harvard - everyone else, myself included, is turning down virtually every large, selective private U or college that we were admitted to - even Tufts and Wellesley. Our bulletin board has maybe 15 schools represented - with only a person or two under each school, with the exception of UMass - which has well over 100 students under it. </p>

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<p>Preamble1776, i don’t quite understand then why did you and your classmates applied to these private schools? Schools like Tufts and Wellesley are relatively selective and may only take one or two students from an individual school. </p>

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<p>@padad - A lot of students (and even their families) tell themselves that they’ll just finance their education with loans (something that my family seriously considered with a few of my schools) - if wasn’t as if we all went in knowing it was unaffordable - it was something we came to realize after comparing all the financial aid letters. </p>

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<p>Then your guidance department is inexcusably terrible. Even an hour on these boards will show you lists of schools that do automatic admissions and full merit aid for top students, and others have a good combination of need and merit-based aid. </p>

<p>That said, with a top 10% of 50 people, you have 500 students in your class and about six thousand in your school system. There aren’t too many schools in the “suburbs of Boston” that have six thousand students in their school system. Some of those, like Brookline, are outstanding high schools; however, most others have a very high proportion of low-income students: <a href=“404 - Page Not Found”>500 - Server Error;

<p>I am making the assumption that middle-class families can pay for room, board, books, and transportation to and from a school, so that if a kid got a scholarship to Tulane, she would be able to afford to fly and live there. </p>

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<p>@ariesathena - I do not know of a single two income household where the family can afford to pay an upwards of 16+k a year for multiple children in terms of room and board. Many low income students applied to schools that promise close to, if not 100%, of their total need - and still, much of their financial aid package was supplemented with large loans - I have friends who applied to BC (college data reports they meet 100% of need) with EFC’s of 500 and were expected to come up with 19k in loans+out of pocket per year. </p>

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<p>Many parents started saving when their kids were young. Imagine saving $500 a month for 15 years. That said, i do understand that this may not be doable for many families. Wish you the best and remember to create your own opportunity by studying seriously. </p>

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<p>@preamble1776‌ : not out of pocket when three kids are all in college at the same time, but I can assure you that the average American two-income household is capable of paying room/board/books for their kids. Off the top of my head, the median lifetime earnings for a married couple is about two million dollars, and the average two-income household with college-age children is in the ballpark of $100k. This wildly differs from the average American household income of $50k because young and retired households have low earnings.</p>

<p>If you truly do not know anyone whose married parents are able to afford room/board/incidentals, then I would suggest that your town is not “middle class.” </p>

<p>There isn’t anything wrong with that - hey, by going to college, you’ll be doing amazing things for yourself - but the advice that we are going to give you regarding law school admissions is fundamentally different. </p>

115

<p>Given what you’ve implied, here is my revised advice:</p>

<p>“UMB gave me a full scholarship w/books plus additional stipends for summer internship whereas BU would mean around 30k in debt (after my petition) after 4 years.”</p>

<p>Do NOT take on that debt. Kids who take in that debt usually have parents who can help them out - let them live rent-free after college, help them to buy or finance a used car, spot them a loan if times get tough. If you’re a kid from, say, Malden, take the UMB scholarship, get internships that you truly could not afford if you had to work for every cent, and take a few years off between undergrad and law school. Use those years to work, build up a small nest egg (you have no idea how expensive law school is), and plan on applying to law school around age 25 at the earliest.</p>

<p>Costs of going to law school (since you want a T14, and assuming Harvard won’t happen, you will have to travel at least to NYC):
Application fees and LSAT fees - plan on at least $1,000
Travel to/from law school - another few hundred, assuming you stay in the NYC or DC metro area
A suit for interviews - $300
Packing up a moving truck and moving yourself to law school - $500
Cash in the bank to put down first/last/security on an apartment before your loan money comes in, plus buying yourself food and such - $2,000
Money to carry yourself through the usually-unpaid 1L summer - $2,500 </p>

<p>Then once you graduate, if you don’t have a BigLaw job lined up, you need to pay for bar exam fees, usually a bar review course, living expenses (if your parents can’t put you up), and, depending on which bar you take, travel and hotel in the state in which you are taking the bar. Then you also need to pay a fee when you are admitted to the bar, and some states have a fee for character and fitness examinations. Some states have heavy CLE requirements. </p>

<p>Yes, there are bar-study loans, but that only kicks the can down the road.</p>

<p>If your parents cannot help you with these costs, which obviously add up to quite a bit of money, then don’t take on debt for undergrad. Period. </p>

<p>How did I do? </p>

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<p>Heck yes they have changed that much since the 90’s!</p>

<p>From Forbes:</p>

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<p><a href=“College Costs Out Of Control”>http://www.forbes.com/sites/steveodland/2012/03/24/college-costs-are-soaring/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>Except, of course, top schools have increased their financial aid by a commensurate amount. </p>

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<p>In other words, ariesathena, “Let them eat cake!”</p>

119

<p>In other words, @BobWallace‌ , you don’t have a substantive rebuttal to that simple point. Thanks for admitting defeat so easily and so soon! What I said is generally called “the exact opposite” of “let them eat cake.” </p>

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<p>“If your parents cannot help you with these costs, which obviously add up to quite a bit of money, then don’t take on debt for undergrad. Period.”</p>

<p>I agree with this.</p>

<p>Because it’s consistent with actual reality.</p>