Princeton among the Ivies

Colleges and Universities A-Z Princeton University
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<p>I cobbled these opinions together from various sources. They focus primarily on the undergraduate programs of the various Ivies. I think there is a ring of truth in them.</p>

<p>For undergraduate education:</p>

<p>Tier I - Yale, Princeton, Brown, Dartmouth;
Tier II - Harvard, Penn, Columbia, Cornell </p>

<p>Yale - Extraordinary academics (though skewed away from the hard sciences). Provides luminaries on the faculty combined with a stunning array of intellectual offerings (formal courses as well as unique extra-curriculars like Grand Strategy). Reigns supreme in the fine arts, offers great leadership and service opportunities. Greatest undergrad focus [tutoring, mentoring, residential college housing, funding for ECs] with the possible exception of Dartmouth. Market leading endowment performance has Yale rolling in dough. The brand name is second to only to one. It feels closer to the centers of American power than perhaps all the other top schools (Good Shepherd anyone?). Often rates rather low in "student happiness" surveys. Major issue - old New Haven, which is still depressing after all these years </p>

<p>Princeton - Phenomenal academics, probably the most balanced of the Ivies across all fields of study. World class in arts, humanities, social sciences, hard sciences AND engineering. Only Stanford can surpass Princeton among the elite private schools in this regard. Pound for pound it's the best academically for undergraduates of all the Ivies with the largest endowment for undergraduate academics and a pristine idyllic campus. Major issue - Old Nassau is elite and it FEELS elite --> Is Princeton too cultured & manicured? Does it simply have too much money?? </p>

<p>Brown - The place for independent students who are brave (or foolish enough) to design their own programs of study; very good academics especially in the humanities; new arts link with RISD may effectively place Brown in the same league as Yale; stellar and very self-selecting student body and lots of momentum because of strong University leadership. And then there's the aura of celebrity which hangs over the campus like a golden halo. Major issue - lack of research-heavy grad schools means Brown will increasingly NOT be perceived as a top school by rankings that favor engrg & medical focused universities (an issue also hurting Princeton). </p>

<p>Dartmouth - Weakest in a pure academic sense among the Ivies (due to its limited graduate programs), but still one of the very best in the nation for a classic liberal arts education. The focus on undergrads is rivaled perhaps only by Yale and the demanding rigor of its course work, especially in math, science and engineering is almost unparalleled among its peers (think more like MIT). Mentoring from senior faculty is reputedly the best in the Ivies, and lots of resources ($$$) are committed to the undergraduates and to undergraduate research. Does a fantastic job of creating a very strong bond among and with its students -- it really is a "tribe". Very self-selecting student body. Off-campus and international programs the best in the Ivies. Major issue - those long and cold and long and cold New England winters.</p>

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<p>Harvard - #1 brand. #1 endowment. And Harvard manages both aggressively. Overall, Harvard has more - more money, more Nobelists, more books, more museums, more labs, more of everything. The school is loaded with superstar faculty (Nobels, National Academy members, etc). Harvard College has the highest yield and one of the lowest admit rates; it may have more students that are really off the charts than any other school in America. The place is Institutional with a capital I. Major Issue - Harvard clearly favors its graduate schools, and the abandoned undergrads don't complain too much because they count themselves lucky to even be there. A low-level and pervasive unhappiness though can be sensed among many undergraduates, as most believe their peers are getting a better education and having more fun elsewhere.</p>

<p>Penn - Academically, great breadth across many disciplines. Unrivalled in undergrad business and nursing, top notch in arts and social sciences. Maybe the weakest among the research-oriented Ivy in the hard sciences. Increasingly prominent in humanities ECs (Kelly Writers House, Civics House, Humanities Forum, etc.) to counter pre-professional Wharton-itis. Lots of academic freedom and perhaps the most flexible after Brown; Penn works hard to ensure cross-disciplinary work. Students can take classes at all Penn's schools (except for Med), benefiting from what may be the second best group of graduate schools among the Ivies. Work hard, party hard ethos. Major Issue - Sheer size and "grittiness" mars the Ivy experience and an anemic job market in Philadelphia (no incentives to stay local unlike Harvard/Cambridge or Stanford/Palo Alto). </p>

<p>Columbia - Blessed with a long legacy and unrivalled NYC location. Any professor who wants to live in NYC most likely wants to teach at Columbia. That creates great resources for students. Unique Core Curriculum defines the academic experience, and Columbia is stellar in many areas. One of the very best in arts and social sciences, very strong in sciences too. Famously political and activist, though jobs on Wall Street seem to carry the day with students. Advising, facilities and access to popular courses draw chronic complaints from the students. Campus expansion may help, although there's never enough space in Manhattan. Major Issue - Does Columbia rely too much on the lure of NYC for students and faculty alike? </p>

<p>Cornell - Big Red!!! Awesome academics can't be touched in engineering and the hard sciences. Unrivalled and unique offerings (agriculture school, labor relations, hotel mgmt) within the Ivies. Don't pooh pooh the admit rate - Cornell is the biggest among the best and - more importantly - it has a slightly different mission that the other places, namely it's the land grant school for NY state. It's a major research center even for undergrads. Another idyllic - perhaps isolated - locale for college and the life of the mind. Student diversity varies tremendously between the undergraduate schools (there are seven). And the academic programs are very structured, (aka, rigid). Major issue - Immense academic pressure at a competitive place (read grind), and those bitter winters high abve Cayuga's waters.</p>

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<p>WOW!!!!!! What a THIEF you are!!!!!! </p>

<p>You have the audacity to completely copy a post I made, essentially in its entirety may I add - and take credit for it. What a pathetic person you are!!!!! </p>

<p>If this was real life you'd be fired for plagiarism and then sued for stealing. </p>

<p>Since it's an Internet thread, I'll take this as a compliment for the research I have done and perspective that I have developed.</p>

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<p>Yale does not rank low in student happiness... it's one of the happiest Ives. Check the Princeton Review list (ranked #9 in student happiness nationwide) or just ask any Yalie. Yalies are happier than students at almost any university.</p>

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<p>I agree bmwdan, also see <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1059701058-post5.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1059701058-post5.html&lt;/a> The post is 80% incorrect. For one thing, "Grand Strategy" is not an extra-curricular.</p>

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<p>Note to all: posterX has a notable Yale bias. Read his posts, and you'll realize it pretty quickly.</p>

<p>Not that I necessarily agree with anything in this list that he disputes, but a lot of the stuff he says is more or less totally lunatic. (Yale far and away the best of the Ivies for undergraduate engineering? I think not. Strongest focus on undergraduates in America? Don't think so.)</p>

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<p>Gotta agree with 1of42 here.</p>

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<p>Even biased, his statement about the happiness of Yale students is quite accurate. They love life at Yale so much it's almost unbelievable in some cases.</p>

<p>PosterX, pm me if you want to... I'm curious what your background is.</p>

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<p>For the record, BalletGirl is a Dartmouth troll with a dislike for Yale. He/she added the comments re Yale students unhappiness; I don't think I've ever seen anything stating that on this site. I certainly didn't hear that from any Yale alum I've met. </p>

<p>And I didn't add the points re Dartmouth's placement stats (bogus) or the students being a tribe (stupid).</p>

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<p>even if biased info was added, the original post gave me a pang of regret that i didn't apply to yale. thanks for the information, whoever happened to actually compile that info.</p>

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<p>Eh, I couldn't have gotten into Yale anyway ;)</p>

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<p>Yale is a great place, but people need to understand that it has a completely different atmosphere from Princeton. I couldn't imagine myself at Yale, and I'm sure that many Elis feel that same way about Princeton.</p>

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<p>rofl Grand Strategy is not an EC, it's a series of classes that about 10 undergrads in every class get to take. Wow. Seriously BalletGirl, other than stealing from red&blue, where did you get some of these obvious errors?</p>

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<p>Weasel8488, how would you describe Princeton's atmosphere?</p>

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<p>The most obvious difference between Princeton and Yale is the residential system. Most Princeton students spend two years in a residential college, and then live and upperclass housing and take meals at one of the eating clubs. At Yale, students live in the residential colleges all four years and eat in University dining facilities. </p>

<p>Yale is probably more liberal than Princeton. That being said, they are both a lot more similar to each other than to Columbia.</p>

<p>Yale is in the middle of a city. I didn't particularly care for New Haven, but a lot of people love it. There is certainly more to do there than in Princeton, a small town of around 15,000. Both schools are only an hour away from New York.</p>

<p>Many claim that Yale is much stronger in the humanities than in the sciences while Princeton is equally strong in both. I don't know how much this is true, but I do feel that for students studying the the more mathematical sciences (physics, computer science, and math itself), Princeton has better programs than Yale.</p>

<p>After being at Princeton for a semester, I have come to believe that students sometimes place too much emphasis on the quality of the academic programs when trying to decide between Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford, etc. It kills me when I see threads like "Which is better: Harvard or Princeton math?". Honestly, the academics at HYPS are top notch, and you will not make a mistake on that front no matter which one you choose. It's much more important to visit the school, stay overnight, go to some social events, and then attend the school that you feel fits your personality best.</p>

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<p>Thank you for your helpful response!</p>

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<p>a couple small corrections: first, few yale students live in their residential college for all four years. the vast majority of yale freshmen instead are assigned to old campus, where they live in proximity, and a fair number (relative to princeton) move off-campus in their upperclass years, the latter fact made possible in part by the much more affordable housing stock in new haven. second, princeton is a town of more like 30,000, not 15,000. while princeton is just over an hour from new york (and philadelphia, in the other direction), yale is more than an hour and a half from "the city." this all said, your points remain that yale has a stronger, more established college system, and a much more urban setting.</p>

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<p>How does Yale have the "greatest undergrad focus"? In terms of both academics and social life/administration there is no way Yale's undergrad focus is comparable to Princeton's - the grad student population just makes it impossible.</p>

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<p>Echang, Princeton has just as many graduate students as Yale proportionally speaking. You are probably confusing "professional" students (law, medical, business, environmental management, drama, art, music, architecture, etc. who have their own facilities, faculty and classes, and which Yale obviously has much, much, MUCH more of) with graduate (Ph.D arts and sciences, who share faculty with undergrad) students. </p>

<p>Undergraduate focus is primarily dependent on the student-faculty ratios in the most popular departments for undergraduates (such as history, biology, etc.) -- and in many of those areas, Yale actually has a significantly lower ratio than Princeton. For example, Yale has over 100 history professors, more than any other university in the nation including enormous schools like UC-Berkeley. It also depends on average class sizes. Both Yale and Princeton have thousands of small seminar type classes available; Yale may actually have a slight lead in this regard. Undergraduate focus also depends heavily on the institutional culture overall, the amount of funding available for undergraduate student services such as fellowships, advising, etc. (of which, according to COHE, Yale spends more per student than any other university except Caltech, with Princeton a close third), the quality of the facilities, the integration of faculty into student life overall (as in the residential colleges), and many other factors. </p>

<p>Although professional students aren't directly a factor, their presence can actually help undergraduates, since those resources are significant, and allow undergraduates to take classes and take advantage of faculty, programs and research that they simply wouldn't be able to at a university without a law, medical or other professional schools (like Princeton).</p>

<p>In any case, both Yale and Princeton are great, undergraduate-focused universities. If you want to get a sense of which is better, visit for 2-3 days, sit in on tons of classes, stay overnight, talk with as many students and faculty as possible. Don't make your decision based on what any one person tells you what the "conventional wisdom" is. Because 8 times out of 10 it isn't totally accurate. Especially if they are biased like some of the above posters.</p>

<p>Good luck with your choice.</p>

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<p>Also, get into both. I hear it's kind of hard...</p>

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<p>Hi all, I'm here to set the record straight on a few issues.</p>

<p>It's true that Yale has about twice as many grad students per undergrad than Princeton (I checked the Times QS survey). I imagine that the ratios of grads to undergrads who share a faculty is comparable across the universities, although I can't point to statistics that say so. </p>

<p>It's true that Yale has professional schools and Princeton (minus its architecture school) does not. But how important is it to you to take that class in glass blowing or the uniform commercial code relative to another course to complete your liberal arts education, like Syriac or a politics class? Answers to this question will vary, and to some degree this question approximates in intent the question, "big school v. smaller school?" I, for one, knew I wanted to focus on a liberal arts education, so a university with many professional schools only meant less proportional funding for the programs I wanted to study.</p>

<p>I disagree that "undergraduate focus is primarily dependent on student-faculty ratios." As a matter of fact, I would be highly skeptical of any attempt to define something as vague and subjective as "undergraduate focus" with one metric. I don't know what "undergraduate focus" means at Yale, but I can tell you what it means at Princeton.
At Princeton, "undergraduate focus" refers first and foremost to the approachability of professors, who are always willing to reschedule office hours to meet with you or to schedule a lunch with you. It also, more specifically, refers to very close advising you get junior and senior year during your independent work. Some of you may know this, but at Princeton you have essentially three pieces of independent work: two junior papers (a fall one attached to a seminar, a spring one in which is just between you and a faculty member) and a senior thesis. It varies when people actually start on their theses, but it's common to correspond with your thesis adviser (or even meet with them) during the summer after your junior year.
That means at least 3 professors (less if you pick the same adviser more than once) who know you academically inside and out and can potentially write very good recommendations. I think this is something unique about Princeton and was a factor in my decision to come here. Other schools may have "senior thesis" requirements, but they tend to have the character of large essays rather than year-long projects. </p>

<p>Finally, I don't know why Princeton gets a rep as "more elite" than other Ivies. It's true we lean a little bit more to the right than others, but as a strong Democrat I'm not put off by it at all, and I don't think that is in any sense a measure of elitism. The eating clubs get a bad rep, but only from those who have never seen one, much less been in one. They sometimes project an image of a 19th-century men's club, but that's all it is, an image, no more than a 1920s-themed party is an actual speakeasy under prohibition. This is especially true now that the University financial aid covers eating club fees. </p>

<p>I should end by saying that it's true this is a biased post...but after all, I do go to Princeton. :)</p>