Yale among the Ivies

<p>I cobbled these opinions together from various sources. They focus primarily on the undergraduate programs of the various Ivies. I think there is a ring of truth in them.</p>

<p>For undergraduate education:</p>

<p>Tier I - Yale, Princeton, Brown, Dartmouth;
Tier II - Harvard, Penn, Columbia, Cornell </p>

<p>Yale - Extraordinary academics (though skewed away from the hard sciences). Provides luminaries on the faculty combined with a stunning array of intellectual offerings (formal courses as well as unique extra-curriculars like Grand Strategy). Reigns supreme in the fine arts, offers great leadership and service opportunities. Greatest undergrad focus [tutoring, mentoring, residential college housing, funding for ECs] with the possible exception of Dartmouth. Market leading endowment performance has Yale rolling in dough. The brand name is second to only to one. It feels closer to the centers of American power than perhaps all the other top schools (Good Shepherd anyone?). Often rates rather low in "student happiness" surveys. Major issue - old New Haven, which is still depressing after all these years </p>

<p>Princeton - Phenomenal academics, probably the most balanced of the Ivies across all fields of study. World class in arts, humanities, social sciences, hard sciences AND engineering. Only Stanford can surpass Princeton among the elite private schools in this regard. Pound for pound it's the best academically for undergraduates of all the Ivies with the largest endowment for undergraduate academics and a pristine idyllic campus. Major issue - Old Nassau is elite and it FEELS elite --> Is Princeton too cultured & manicured? Does it simply have too much money?? </p>

<p>Brown - The place for independent students who are brave (or foolish enough) to design their own programs of study; very good academics especially in the humanities; new arts link with RISD may effectively place Brown in the same league as Yale; stellar and very self-selecting student body and lots of momentum because of strong University leadership. And then there's the aura of celebrity which hangs over the campus like a golden halo. Major issue - lack of research-heavy grad schools means Brown will increasingly NOT be perceived as a top school by rankings that favor engrg & medical focused universities (an issue also hurting Princeton). </p>

<p>Dartmouth - Weakest in a pure academic sense among the Ivies (due to its limited graduate programs), but still one of the very best in the nation for a classic liberal arts education. The focus on undergrads is rivaled perhaps only by Yale and the demanding rigor of its course work, especially in math, science and engineering is almost unparalleled among its peers (think more like MIT). Mentoring from senior faculty is reputedly the best in the Ivies, and lots of resources ($$$) are committed to the undergraduates and to undergraduate research. Does a fantastic job of creating a very strong bond among and with its students -- it really is a "tribe". Very self-selecting student body. Off-campus and international programs the best in the Ivies. Major issue - those long and cold and long and cold New England winters.</p>

<hr>

<p>Harvard - #1 brand. #1 endowment. And Harvard manages both aggressively. Overall, Harvard has more - more money, more Nobelists, more books, more museums, more labs, more of everything. The school is loaded with superstar faculty (Nobels, National Academy members, etc). Harvard College has the highest yield and one of the lowest admit rates; it may have more students that are really off the charts than any other school in America. The place is Institutional with a capital I. Major Issue - Harvard clearly favors its graduate schools, and the abandoned undergrads don't complain too much because they count themselves lucky to even be there. A low-level and pervasive unhappiness though can be sensed among many undergraduates, as most believe their peers are getting a better education and having more fun elsewhere.</p>

<p>Penn - Academically, great breadth across many disciplines. Unrivalled in undergrad business and nursing, top notch in arts and social sciences. Maybe the weakest among the research-oriented Ivy in the hard sciences. Increasingly prominent in humanities ECs (Kelly Writers House, Civics House, Humanities Forum, etc.) to counter pre-professional Wharton-itis. Lots of academic freedom and perhaps the most flexible after Brown; Penn works hard to ensure cross-disciplinary work. Students can take classes at all Penn's schools (except for Med), benefiting from what may be the second best group of graduate schools among the Ivies. Work hard, party hard ethos. Major Issue - Sheer size and "grittiness" mars the Ivy experience and an anemic job market in Philadelphia (no incentives to stay local unlike Harvard/Cambridge or Stanford/Palo Alto). </p>

<p>Columbia - Blessed with a long legacy and unrivalled NYC location. Any professor who wants to live in NYC most likely wants to teach at Columbia. That creates great resources for students. Unique Core Curriculum defines the academic experience, and Columbia is stellar in many areas. One of the very best in arts and social sciences, very strong in sciences too. Famously political and activist, though jobs on Wall Street seem to carry the day with students. Advising, facilities and access to popular courses draw chronic complaints from the students. Campus expansion may help, although there's never enough space in Manhattan. Major Issue - Does Columbia rely too much on the lure of NYC for students and faculty alike? </p>

<p>Cornell - Big Red!!! Awesome academics can't be touched in engineering and the hard sciences. Unrivalled and unique offerings (agriculture school, labor relations, hotel mgmt) within the Ivies. Don't pooh pooh the admit rate - Cornell is the biggest among the best and - more importantly - it has a slightly different mission that the other places, namely it's the land grant school for NY state. It's a major research center even for undergrads. Another idyllic - perhaps isolated - locale for college and the life of the mind. Student diversity varies tremendously between the undergraduate schools (there are seven). And the academic programs are very structured, (aka, rigid). Major issue - Immense academic pressure at a competitive place (read grind), and those bitter winters high abve Cayuga's waters.</p>

<p>i would dispute your statement that Cornell's programs are rigid. Certainly some are more structured than others (perhaps in Architecture, ILR and maybe to some extent engineering or hotel due to their unique specialization) but I would not call the majority of programs at Cornell rigid. Most students are in the College of Arts and Sciences which has a broad set of distribution requirements not too unlike Yale's. Arts and Sciences has a wealth of classes in all disciplines and the major requirements are no more structured than what I've seen at the other Ivies I've visited.</p>

<p>WOW!!!!!! What a THIEF you are!!!!!! </p>

<p>You have the audacity to completely copy a post I made, almost in its entirety may I add - and take credit for it. What a pathetic person you are!!!!! </p>

<p>If this was real life you'd be fired for plagiarism and then sued for stealing. </p>

<p>Since it's an Internet thread, I'll take this as a compliment for the research I have done and perspective that I have developed.</p>

<p>I find it shocking that people think Yale rates low for student happiness. The vast, vast majority of the student body is fanatical in its devotion to their alma mater. There's a saying, "Harvard students are happy to be at Harvard. Yale students are happy."</p>

<p>A lot of the above isn't accurate at all.</p>

<p>One of the most inaccurate statements is that Yale ranks low for student happiness. Yale has the happiest students of any school I have ever spent a significant amount of time visiting, which is a list that would include almost all the top 50 univs and colleges in the country and several dozen around the world. The school has the strongest focus on undergraduates in the United States (even surpassing all of the small LACs), the greatest academic programs and the most vibrant student life "scene" of any top university by a wide margin. The area of undergraduate dorms is significantly denser than any other campus, meaning that everything to do and everyone's friends are accessible within a 2-3 minute walk, which, in my opinion is the main reason why the place is buzzing with activity 24/7. </p>

<p>Also, New Haven has become one of the top 4 or 5 college towns in the United States. See my posts at <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/yale-university/449186-yale-s-location.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/yale-university/449186-yale-s-location.html&lt;/a> and the other links I posted there for very detailed descriptions of what it is like now. In terms of location, the other Ivies don't measure up.</p>

<p>Finally, in terms of overall undergraduate quality of science and engineering, Yale is easily the best in the Ivies -- only Caltech and MIT can compare. Obviously, Yale isn't a huge engineering school like Purdue, Michigan, Stanford, Minnesota or Georgia Tech, but in terms of educational quality, research quality and research per student, it is on the level of Caltech. For other sciences, Yale is a world leader in both quality terms and quantity terms. Yale's recent acquisition, from Bayer World Research of Germany, of a massive new science campus a couple miles away from the main campus -- which just by itself, is larger than MIT's entire campus and is already completely built out in terms of cutting-edge laboratory space -- will only accelerate this university's world leadership in the sciences. This acquisition comes on the heels of $1B in new science buildings on the existing central campus.</p>

<p>Low on student happiness? Whut?</p>

<p>/For God, for Country, and for Yale</p>

<p>Just to set the record straight, my original post didn't have any statements about students' happiness at their respective schools (except for Harvard kids wondering if they were being abandoned by the administration and Cornell students dealing with the pressure).</p>

<p>It's a well know fact (at least well reported) that Yale students enjoy their school immensely. And perhaps only Princeton alums are as fanatically loyal to their school.</p>

<p>Finally, Poster X - your statement about Yale re the sciences isn't true. Not by a long shot. Yale has deep strengths in the biological sciences. But the top schools in the hard sciences overall (biological sciences, physics, chemistry, geology and perhaps mathematics) are w/o question Stanford, MIT, Berkeley, CalTech and Harvard. President Levin has acknowledged that fact in several speeches [see "Yale's Fourth Century"]. Check any US News report, the academic productivity stats published by Academic Analytics and the soon-to-be updated NSF data. Sorry, but your arguments on this point are in vain.</p>

<p>That said, Yale is my favorite Ivy. After Penn of course;-)</p>

<p>this is very confusing...half of the things you state for one university "unsurpassed in humanities/social sciences" are repeated in the other universities...it does not give a clear picture for some of the universities, though you do present the more rudimentary differences...but I have to say, the descriptions of Yale and Princeton are quite contradictory when compared..</p>

<p>Debate_Addict, I'm not sure which statements are confusing you? All the Ivies are stellar, but each has points of strength relative to the others. Princeton is probably the most balanced and gets the highest rankings across all of the disciplines. What else is unclear to you?</p>

<p>Wait what? Yale ranks low on student happiness surveys?? BalletGirl, where on Earth did you get that information? The same goes for Princeton being "cold"...</p>

<p>According to the 2008 Princeton Review, Yale is ranked among the top 10 for happiest students...in terms of Ivies, behind only Princeton and Brown. </p>

<p>Lol these descriptions are a little flawed...
--New Haven really isn't bad, despite all the crap high school students on CC give it lol
--ditto Princeton...it may not be a big city but it's hardly elite-feeling...I'm actually not certain how Princeton would feel more "elite" than Hanover, which is even more of an isolated Ivy League town!</p>

<p>For the last time, it's impossible for any one student to "objectively" analyze the Ivies. Most Ivy League students only ever attend one for undergrad; a few transfers might attend two. No more.</p>

<p>a LOT of the info thrown around here on CC with regards to the Ivies is BS...a large chunk of posters are high school students who have visited some of the ivies for perhaps a day. Even a compiled list of other people's comments does not make them reliable. There are some posters, like Northstarmom, who know a great deal about a particular school (in her case, Harvard) and can absolutely give helpful, reliable advice. Many don't know any more than you do. I've seen so many objectively, patently false things written on this website about my own school it's kind of ridiculous...so, again, don't believe everything you read on the internet :-)</p>

<p>
[quote]
The school has the strongest focus on undergraduates in the United States (even surpassing all of the small LACs)

[/quote]

From this, I can conclude that you haven't spent much time at Dartmouth, Amherst, Williams, Swarthmore.</p>

<p>
[quote]
. The area of undergraduate dorms is significantly denser than any other campus, meaning that everything to do and everyone's friends are accessible within a 2-3 minute walk

[/quote]
</p>

<p>And from this I can conclude that you haven't been to Columbia, the entire campus of which covers all of 36 acres.</p>

<p>
[quote]
In terms of location, the other Ivies don't measure up.

[/quote]
Now this is probably among the dumbest things I've heard today. For a city, New York, Philadelphia, and Boston are all better cities than New Haven. For bucolic rural settings, Ithaca and Hanover are going to beat New Haven. And it all depends on what you prefer.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Finally, in terms of overall undergraduate quality of science and engineering, Yale is easily the best in the Ivies

[/quote]

And from this I can simply conclude that you haven't spent much time on planet earth. There is only one serious engineering school in the Ivy League, and that is Cornell. Then Princeton. Several Ivies have strength in life sciences thanks to synergies from their excellent med schools (Harvard's and Penn's being better than Yale's), but that's it.</p>

<p>Look, nobody doubts that Yale is among the finest schools in the nation, if not the world. All of the Ivies are. But no Ivy or any school is the absolute best at everything--period. I'm sure everyone with the possible exception of you can see that.</p>

<p>Ilovebagels,</p>

<p>Actually I have been to and sat in on classes at all of those smaller colleges you mentioned, as well as places such as Wellesley, Haverford, Bowdoin and other great schools. None of them have the deep undergraduate focus, 1000s of seminars, widespread fellowship and advising opportunities, and unlimited resources of a Yale, Caltech or Princeton. Although it is true that they have fewer students, in my opinion they simply don't have the resources to compete at the same level, even just in terms of the number of small classes available.</p>

<p>As far as college towns, I agree with you that it depends on what you prefer, but please don't make assumptions based on what you see on paper or what the "conventional wisdom" is, because I don't. I have actually visited and literally spent weeks in every single Ivy League college town, and know many alumni from each of the Ivy League schools. My point was that the area around Yale (downtown New Haven -- the only Ivy League school located in a major city downtown) has become the best Ivy League college town, by a huge margin. Feel free to disagree, but don't insult me for it. In my opinion, Morningside Heights, West Philadelphia and Harvard Square are horrible college towns that are not at all centered around students, are flooded with boring chain stores, and require remote subway rides which draw campus life far away from the campus, killing the 24/7 vibrancy of the school. They may look good in theory, but they really don't allow the campuses there to function in a way that is vibrant and diverse -- when you have to take $30 cab rides to get home from your weekend party spots, you start seeing a lot of segregation among the student body, and nothing going on on the main campus. Ithaca, Princeton and Hanover are more like traditional "college towns", but are extremely remote and frankly, quite boring when compared to places like New Haven, Boulder, Austin, Cambridge, Athens, Madison, Charlottesville, Ann Arbor or even Northampton, Evanston, Chapel Hill, Auburn and certain other "college towns" that have larger populations (again, all places I have been to extensively). Yes, they have "rural attractions," but the college towns I listed above (with exception of Cambridge and Evanston) are also located within 10 minutes of hundreds of miles of hiking trails, beaches, farms and other great rural features.</p>

<p>As far as the quality of biomedical research goes, Yale tops both Harvard and Penn and is leagues ahead of the other Ivies (which don't even have major medical complexes, or have them but, in the case of Cornell, are located 300 miles from the undergraduate campus). For other sciences, Yale is also among the top universities nationwide -- ranking #1 in the ScienceWatch chemistry and engineering rankings, for example, just above Harvard and Caltech. You could argue endlessly about this, as we have on other threads, but the bottom line is that Yale is easily one of the very top institutions in the sciences, and by several available measures, #1 in the United States.</p>

<p>^^ Yale #1 in the nation in sciences? Lol. Don't get me wrong, I love Yale, but even I wouldn't stretch the truth as far as that!</p>

<p>It's actually not a stretch at all if you look at the quality and quantity of faculty research, graduate student placement (both incoming and outgoing), undergraduate student placement at graduate programs, graduate student yield, federal and non-federal funding sources, strength of new faculty appointments, faculty awards (both for senior and junior faculty), facilities, breadth of research fields ranked among the top 10 by COHE, departmental publication citation indexes, etc., especially relative to the number of undergraduate majors in the sciences. </p>

<p>I have done all of that.</p>

<p>Of course, there are a couple other possible competitors for the #1 spot - namely Harvard, Caltech and Stanford, so it depends on how you interpret all of the different variables.</p>

<p>PosterX if you have literally spent weeks at the campuses of all these top schools, I have to ask...what do you do with your life?</p>

<p>Well, I know they're trying to hype up the sciences here, but frankly it's just not the strongest area at Yale. Doesn't mean it's not of great quality, just that it's not the best or most popular or most well-developed of all the things this college offers.</p>

<p>adf8, I work in the "industry." I also have friends and relatives (from a very large family) who attended all of these schools, plus several who even attended two or three of them.</p>

<p>Frrph, in terms of some people not considering science "the best", I suspect the reason is because scientists and engineers just generally aren't as well regarded, culturally speaking, as leaders in arts, architecture, drama/entertainment, business, industry, politics, law, government, advocacy, nonprofits, etc. Yale is dominant in all of these areas as well as science, which is part of the problem. Even though both are incredible, many students will still have a preference towards the fields that carry more prestige. In other words, it is kind of like the comparison you might make between a $1,000,000 custom-built Ferrari and a $3,000,000 custom-built, custom-designed car from one of the smaller Italian shops. Or the comparison between a $20,000 hotel room at the Four Seasons Dubai and a $50,000 hotel room at the Burj Dubai. Most people would see both as "the best", and both are of the highest possible quality, even to the point of being absurdly good, but obviously there would still be people biased towards the one with more cachet.</p>