<p>"elitism" huh? if you went to the eating clubs or read between the lines you wouldnt think that lol. Perhaps you should check out the picture shown with the article..elitist= drinking. You have to be totally whacked to be walking around naked with a gift wrapped box on SNL style instead of a fig leaf hahaha. And whether you want to admit it or not there is toooo much drinking goin on.</p>
<p>Brown man, “supposed” is a good choice of words. </p>
<p>The best review of Princeton’s eating clubs in comparison with Harvard’s final clubs and Yale’s secret societies comes from a series of articles done by the Yale Daily News whose reporters visited the three campuses and had this to say: “In comparison to Harvard's final clubs or Yale's secret societies, Princeton's eating clubs are in many ways less exclusive. Even the selective bicker clubs have open application; any student can go through the bicker process. Neither final clubs nor secret societies accept applications; students are simply "tapped" for membership, or at Harvard, "punched."</p>
<p><a href="http://www.yaledailynews.com/articles/view/17212%5B/url%5D">http://www.yaledailynews.com/articles/view/17212</a> = on Princeton’s Eating Clubs
<a href="http://www.yaledailynews.com/articles/view/17230%5B/url%5D">http://www.yaledailynews.com/articles/view/17230</a> = on Harvard’s Final Clubs
<a href="http://www.yaledailynews.com/articles/view/17253%5B/url%5D">http://www.yaledailynews.com/articles/view/17253</a> = on Yale’s Secret Societies</p>
<p>The criticism of the eating clubs is woefully outdated and the recent newspaper article was clearly sensationalized. Fifty years ago, the clubs were far more exclusionary. Today, half of the clubs are simple “sign-in” clubs that any junior can join through a random selection process based on the number of available spaces. The other clubs have a student-run selection process but it is no more elitist than similar processes at Yale’s secret societies or at Harvard’s final clubs. The difference between the eating clubs and these social organizations at the other schools is that almost all parties at all of the eating clubs are open to students across campus whether or not they belong to that club. The parties vary in quality but typically they’re all a good deal of fun. The cost of belonging to an eating club is only very slightly more than a meal plan at the University for which it substitutes and additional financial aid is now available to students so that those who need it are able to pay this additional cost.</p>
<p>It seems to me that the eating clubs as a whole are the exact opposite of ‘elite’. If they are meant to be exclusive and vehicles for social stratification, they are doing a very poor job indeed. In fact, nearly 3/4's of all Princeton juniors and seniors (plus a large percentage of the sophomores during their spring semester) belong to the clubs. Furthermore, students of all classes tend to show up at the open parties (though drinking age limits are observed). It’s difficult to see how a phenomenon so widespread and open to anyone who wishes to participate can be said to be ‘elite’. On the contrary, I would say that it is clear that they are rather 'common'. They're also a lot of fun for most students. The facilities are beautiful and they offer a full range of activities including community service. For those who do not wish to participate as full members, there are also social memberships which are much less expensive and even those juniors and seniors who have no formal connection with the clubs whatsoever often show up at the parties. </p>
<p>I have some ambivalent feelings about the clubs and it is certainly true that a couple of them could be said to have an air of exclusivity (Ivy is like this). I was not a member of any of them, but I attended plenty of parties and generally enjoyed them. Calling them elitist, however, is a little like calling membership in the YMCA elitist. It just doesn’t make sense. There are far too many members and it’s far too easy to participate for such a label to be justified. Also, despite the sensationalist stories in the newspaper article, most parties at the clubs are pretty low key affairs and everyone is wearing clothes!</p>
<p>The composition of the Princeton undergraduate student body is also decidedly different from the stereotypes typically offered. Here are a couple of examples.</p>
<p>Class of 2009 % of Students on Financial Aid (U.S. News & World Report)</p>
<p>55% Princeton
52% Harvard
45% Yale
43% Stanford</p>
<p>Class of 2010 % of Students From Public Schools</p>
<p>61% Princeton
54.4% Yale</p>
<p>(<a href="http://www.princeton.edu/main/news/archive/S14/41/92C18/index.xml?section=newsreleases%5B/url%5D">http://www.princeton.edu/main/news/archive/S14/41/92C18/index.xml?section=newsreleases</a>)
(<a href="http://www.yaledailynews.com/articles/view/17694%5B/url%5D">http://www.yaledailynews.com/articles/view/17694</a>)</p>
<p>Finally, hedoya, I agree with you that there is too much drinking among undergraduates but this is certainly not unique to Princeton. All college campuses have this problem. It comes with the age group and the new found freedom most undergraduates are experiencing. To Princeton’s credit, it has not ignored this issue as have many universities and has, in fact, devoted significant administrative resources to educating students about the dangers.</p>
<p>/\ thank you I was beginning to think all of my friends were stumbling around on weekends due to a mysterious ailment. By the way excellent presentation above. Glad you just happen to have that available LOL. Not sure if anyone but the parents really care how " exclusive" the clubs are though once you are in you are in.</p>
<p>Princeton's binge drinking percentage, available by searching on <a href="http://www.princeton.edu%5B/url%5D">www.princeton.edu</a>, is actually somewhat below the national average.</p>
<p>Binge drinking you may be correct but I said alcoholism and how do you gather stats on that? Chocolate Martinis anyone? Its called denial. The picture in the article says a thousand words. Most everyone here thought it was pretty funny by the way.</p>
<p>Here is where?</p>
<p>Of the many people I've known who went to Yale and Harvard over a period of several decades, including various family members of mine and family members of friends, several were members of Porcellian and Skull & Bones. Another couple were punched, but declined to participate. Every single one of them was wealthy, well-connected, and a graduate of a well-known prep school. Not a single one of the (more numerous) public school graduates were ever invited to join, to my knowledge. Compared to that, the Princeton eating clubs seem comparatively egalitarian. On the other hand, it seems that the clubs/societies at Yale and Harvard have almost no effect on the rest of the student body.</p>
<p>Welcome to Princeton.</p>
<p>You know there are frats much more exclusive than our party scene? Half our scene is non-exclusive.</p>
<p>In any case, yes, you may be descended by some billionaire... but, sorry people, it's the 21st century and people in their garage can become the next billionare. in fact, most ppl are self made than inherited... with estate tax mounting, it's pretty clear that what you can do is much more important than just "tagging along" .. yea, you can make 1 million in your life with connections, but there's also billions to be made, and that money is reserved for the entrepreneurs.</p>
<p>now, of course, connections >> anything</p>
<p>I'm a rising soph, so I guess I have the fresh, "independent" view of the eating clubs:</p>
<p>Like people said, 5 are sign-in, and so are open to everyone. You don't need passes, just your ID, and sign-in parties are, in my opinion, lots of fun, though some people slight them because they aren't as exclusive.</p>
<p>To get into the other five bicker clubs, you need passes, but as mentioned, they're extremely easy to get, members sometimes give them out outside the club. However, to be totally honest, there are certain cliques you need to be in to fully enjoy certain clubs. Cottage is almost entirely football players, members of one fraternity, and sorority girls. Ivy has plenty of very wealthy members. Tiger Inn, the most relaxed of the "big three," has many water polo and wrestling team members, though it's really diverse in terms of what connections people have.</p>
<p>Again, it's easy to go out to Prospect, go into Cottage without being in a fraternity or a certain sports team, and enjoy one's self, but you won't know nearly as many people in the club, because you don't have the advantage of seeing them in your daily life. As a result, unaffiliated people in Cottage or Ivy may feel marginalized. I'm not implying that the club members themselves try to ostracize the unaffiliated partygoers, but it's a phenom that just happens.</p>
<p>One thing that I've been starting to see at Pton, more distinctly than divisions based on sports teams, fraternities, or bank statements, is racial self-segregation. I hope I'm not the only one who's noticed, but most Black students are in Quad, Terrace, and Cap on a typical Saturday night. Most asian students are in Colonial, and meanwhile, Ivy and Cottage are filled almost exclusively with White students. I honestly don't think any of the clubs are racist (students are picked on their activities more than their skin color, Black football players still get into Cottage), but there's a distinct sense that certain parties don't reflect the diversity of the school. I've been in Cottage and been the only Black person in the club (maybe there was one somewhere, but definitely not in the 40 or so people in the basement).</p>
<p>Granted, I'm in a fraternity, so I shouldn't have too much to worry about, haha.</p>
<p>The financial aid numbers above are highly misleading because they only give figures for students receiving direct grants (and not the actual amount of those grants), and therefore do not give you the entire picture. Columbia and Yale are by far the most socioeconomically diverse Ivies, overall.</p>
<p>The problem with the eating clubs at Princeton is that campus social life revolves around them. They involve students from all four years and dominate the "party" scene. That makes the social scene at Princeton totally exclusive: in my experience, the eating clubs are just as (if not more) snobby, segregated and exclusive as anyone might fear. Be prepared for that. At Yale, in contrast, the secret societies are limited to a handful of seniors who spend Thursday and Sunday nights having dinner together. They purposefully try to get a diverse group of 10-15 kids together, and invite non-members to their parties, as opposed to the eating clubs, where it is much more about status and exclusivity. The secret societies at Yale also don't operate on Friday or Saturdays, and since they only involve seniors, their overall impact on campus social life is practically nonexistent. As a result of the lack of eating clubs, as well as the residential college system (the only randomly assigned, comprehensive 4-year college system in the Ivies), Yale is much less segregated, so you find that many different groups are constantly interacting with each other. Harvard is in-between the two in terms of exclusivity because the finals clubs involve younger students (which makes them notoriously exclusive for freshmen males (!); however, Harvard is large enough that, luckily, the campus social life does not <em>completely</em> revolve around them and the campus is therefore less segregated. But don't take my word for any of the above - visit each school for 2-3 days each, including a weekend day, sit in on classes and dining halls, and talk to as many students/faculty as possible. That's the only way you'll really get a sense of what the culture of each school is like. I think if you really do this level of research on all three, you'll agree with my characterizations above.</p>
<p>What experience do you have with Princeton's eating clubs?</p>
<p>Weasel, I believe the accurate answer to your question as posed to posterX would be none or very little. However, since posterX has repeatedly claimed on this board (and most of the others for the Ivies) that he has visited hundreds of schools and knows them all intimately (or at least well enough to make overly-broad characterizations), I suspect youll get a different answer.</p>
<p>So heres a response to our old friend (and amazingly well-traveled) posterX.</p>
<p>In regard to eating clubs, I certainly agree with you that no one should take [your] word for it. In fact, I believe they would be very foolish to do so and Im afraid that even your fellow Yale graduates disagree with you. </p>
<p>I once again encourage anyone interested in comparing Princetons Eating Clubs to Yales Secret Societies and Harvards Finals Clubs to read the following fair and comprehensive articles written by Yale students who present a very different picture from the one presented by posterX. I apologize in advance to those of you who have seen these before, but the message just doesnt seem to get through to certain posters.</p>
<p>To quote the Yale author in the first article:</p>
<p>In comparison to Harvard's final clubs or Yale's secret societies, Princeton's eating clubs are in many ways less exclusive. Even the selective bicker clubs have open application; any student can go through the bicker process. Neither final clubs nor secret societies accept applications; students are simply "tapped" for membership, or at Harvard, "punched."</p>
<p><a href="http://www.yaledailynews.com/articles/view/17212%5B/url%5D">http://www.yaledailynews.com/articles/view/17212</a> = on Princetons Eating Clubs
<a href="http://www.yaledailynews.com/articles/view/17230%5B/url%5D">http://www.yaledailynews.com/articles/view/17230</a> = on Harvards Final Clubs
<a href="http://www.yaledailynews.com/articles/view/17253%5B/url%5D">http://www.yaledailynews.com/articles/view/17253</a> = on Yales Secret Societies</p>
<p>Personally, I didnt belong to an eating club and I have mixed feelings about them. They are not, however, elitist (with the possible exception of Ivy), and the parties are generally open to all. As Ive pointed out numerous times before, no activity that involves the vast majority of juniors and seniors could accurately be deemed elitist. In fact, as a group, theyre rather ordinary and inclusive, rather than exclusive.</p>
<p>Now, as for your claim that Columbia and Yale are by far the most socioeconomically diverse Ivies, there is simply no factual evidence for this at all. If it is simply your opinion, then you should state it as such. If you believe there are statistics to support it, then you should cite them.</p>
<p>The numbers and percentages I quoted above are not misleading and can all be referenced by the citations Ive provided. The numbers themselves come mostly from the Common Data Set forms published by each of the universities. I repeat them here with even more detail for those interested.</p>
<p>Class of 2009 % of Students on Financial Aid (U.S. News & World Report)</p>
<p>55%--Columbia (tie)
55%--Princeton (tie)
52%--Harvard
49%--Dartmouth
47%--Cornell
45%--Yale
43%--Stanford
42%--Brown
41%--Penn</p>
<p>TOTAL Percentage of Undergraduates From All Classes on Financial Aid During 2004-2005 (the most recent figures available from U.S. News & World Report)</p>
<p>52%--Dartmouth
51%--Princeton
50%--Harvard
48%--Columbia
46%--Cornell
45%--Stanford
44%--Penn
42%--Brown (tie)
42%--Yale (tie)</p>
<p>Starting from next term, Princeton is offering additional financial aid to those who would like to join an eating club.</p>
<p>Besides the fact that they are so closely clustered, those numbers you posted honestly have absolutely nothing to do with socioeconomic diversity, since they only include students getting direct grants. Not students who take out loans. They also do not adjust for the size of the grants. Princeton might give five students grants of $1,000 each, putting them in your percentages, but I wouldn't say that those five students outweigh the two students at Columbia or Yale who each get grants covering the entire cost of their tuitions.</p>
<p>Anyhow, my advice was only to visit each school extensively and not take anyone on this forum's word for what the social life is like. But I don't think my characterization that the Princeton eating clubs affect all four years of undergraduate social life, unlike any of the institutions at Harvard or Yale, is at all unfounded. The eating clubs affect everyone; if you don't get in, you might not have a place to go that Thursday, Friday or Saturday evening. The secret societies at Yale (or any other school that has them) are only places for early-evening dinner parties on Thursday and/or Sunday evenings for about 15 seniors, and besides, unlike Princeton's eating clubs , they are no longer "elitist" in the sense that they only take people from particular groups (that was partially true in the early 1990s and before, but no longer). They do not register at all on the scale of undergraduate social life. In other words, there is absolutely no comparison that can be made between them and an institution like Princeton's eating clubs. Harvard's finals clubs are somewhat in between, but again, they aren't nearly as extensive as the eating clubs either. I have nothing for or against H, Y, or P here, I'm just being honest based on my extensive experience at these (and other) schools.</p>
<p>Regarding diversity, my advice is the same as it is for eating clubs/social life. Visit each school extensively, staying over during the week and also a weekend evening. You'll see huge differences. Diversity "on paper" means nothing, especially given that minority "percentages" are roughly comparable among any of the top institutions out there. Diversity in the sense that people from many different groups are actually constantly interacting with each other in an intellectual, egalitarian setting means a lot more. You can only determine the extent of that by visiting, talking with a few dozen students, hanging out in a few classes and in the dining halls, and seeing what the residential systems are like (as well as the social life, of course...). Otherwise, you are honestly not making an informed decision at all, and you may regret that down the road because, to be honest, many of the top colleges out there are really not that diverse when it comes down to the day to day life.</p>
<p>
<p>Now posterX, lets drop the exaggerations and be TRULY honest here. Were ready at any time to accept your admission that neither of the above two assertions is true. Amazingly you must have had multiple undergraduate lives given your extensive experience at so very many schools!</p>
<p> [quote=posterX] those numbers you posted honestly have absolutely nothing to do with socioeconomic diversity, since they only include students getting direct grants
</p>
<p>Im afraid youre wrong here as well. In fact those percentages DO include students receiving loans.</p>
<p>Now, as for your rather creative mathematics, suggesting that Princeton gives out a large number of small grants, thereby explaining its significantly higher percentage of students on financial aid, lets get a reality check here. The average size of an aid award at Harvard is $30,715.00. At Yale, its $30,219.00. At Princeton, its 28,368.00 (USNWR for 2005-2006 school year). </p>
<p>So, the average size of the awards is almost identical at the three schools. Princeton and Harvard just give them to a far higher percentage of each class to subsidize the educations of lower income students.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Well, this obviously puts to rest any lingering belief that you might actually have spent any time at Princeton. As has been stated repeatedly, both by me and by other Princeton students and graduates, everyone has a place to go. Half of the clubs have completely open sign-in memberships and even the bicker club parties are easy to attend. There is no truth to your assertion whatsoever.</p>
<p>Now, as for diversity of other sorts, here are a few more statistics:</p>
<p>Total % of Undergraduates Who Are White (U.S. News & World Report)</p>
<p>66%--Brown (tie)
66%--Cornell (tie)
66%--Yale (tie)</p>
<p>65%--Dartmouth
62%--Princeton
61%--Columbia
60%--Penn
56%--Harvard
46%--Stanford</p>
<p>Total % of Undergraduates Who Are International (U.S. News & World Report)</p>
<p>9%--Harvard (tie)
9%--Penn (tie)
9%--Princeton (tie)</p>
<p>8%--Cornell (tie)
8%--Yale (tie)</p>
<p>7%--Columbia</p>
<p>6%--Brown (tie)
6%--Stanford (tie)</p>
<p>5%--Dartmouth</p>
<p>Total % of Students Accepted to the Class of 2011 Who Are Minority</p>
<p>44% --- Princeton (<a href="http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/archives/2007/04/03/news/17914.shtml%5B/url%5D">http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/archives/2007/04/03/news/17914.shtml</a> )
42% --- Penn (<a href="http://media.www.dailypennsylvanian.com/media/storage/paper882/news/2007/04/02/News/Admission.Rate.Drops.To.Record.Low.15.9-2816943.shtml%5B/url%5D">http://media.www.dailypennsylvanian.com/media/storage/paper882/news/2007/04/02/News/Admission.Rate.Drops.To.Record.Low.15.9-2816943.shtml</a> )
42% --- Harvard ( <a href="http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=517933%5B/url%5D">http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=517933</a> )
41% --- Yale ( <a href="http://www.yaledailynews.com/articles/view/20617%5B/url%5D">http://www.yaledailynews.com/articles/view/20617</a> )</p>
<p>Unlike the financial aid differences, it does seem to me that these differences are rather slight, so your statement that there are huge differences in diversity among these schools is ridiculous.</p>
<p>Perhaps the only thing youve written with which I do agree is that visiting schools is very important. In Princetons case, a visit will surely disabuse the visitor of these absurd stereotypes about Princeton (and perhaps about other schools as well). So, in this, posterX and I agree; visit and ask questions of current students AND be highly suspicious of the statements of supposed experts on these boards who did not attend the university in which youre interested.</p>
<p>are there any african americans in any of these eating clubs? if so, which are they most likely to join?</p>
<p>Incorrect. When loans are considered, the percentages of students actually receiving aid are closer to 60-70% at these schools. </p>
<p>Also, % accepted is not the same as % enrolled. And you miss the point that diversity, on paper, means nothing. You have to visit to see what it really means - because there are vast differences in how students of different backgrounds interact between one school and another.</p>
<p>Now posterX youre really beginning to embarrass yourself again. </p>
<p>Okay, lets quote directly from the Common Data Set Form filled out by your alma mater, Yale, for the class entering in the fall of 2005 (the most currently available data compiled by USNWR) Here is the section reporting financial aid data:</p>
<p>Number of Enrolled Students Awarded Aid: List the number of degree-seeking full-time and less-than-full-time undergraduates who applied for and were awarded financial aid from any source. Aid that is non-need-based but that was used to meet need should be counted as need-based aid. [i.e. this includes all forms of institutional aid whether loan or grant].</p>
<p>---Number of students awarded any type of financial aid [including loans] = 2,265
---Number of students awarded need-based or scholarship grant aid [excluding loans] = 2,232</p>
<p>So, 2,265 Yale undergraduates received some sort of financial aid (including loans) from Yale. There were 5,340 total undergraduates at the time these figures were compiled; therefore 42.4% of Yale undergraduates need and are granted aid. Youll note that an additional 33 students apparently received only loans and no grants from Yale. Presumably, these were students who didnt meet the requirements for grants but were given low interest loans by Yale anyway.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.yale.edu/oir/CDS2005_2006.pdf%5B/url%5D">http://www.yale.edu/oir/CDS2005_2006.pdf</a></p>
<p>Now if you are talking about loans taken out by students who dont need the money (as determined by Yale) there could certainly be more. These would be wealthy students whose parents got no financial aid from Yale because they didnt need it but who took out loans for other (perhaps cash flow) reasons. Clearly, no institution keeps track of that kind of private information and those are not students who would contribute to the low end of the Yale socioeconomic diversity scale.</p>
<p>If you have some citation to prove that 60-70% of students at Yale or any of the Ivies receive aid we would all love to see it.</p>
<p>So, the numbers reported by USNWR from the Common Data Set Forms are exactly what the institutions are reporting. Yale has just shown you to be wrong again.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>This is almost too silly to justify a response. I feel confident in asserting that the vast differences to which you are referring are all in your mind.</p>
<p>You're missing the point. It's up to each person to visit and see if they agree, not for you or anyone else to tell them that every single college out there is exactly identical in regards to how students interact, even in the face of different residential systems, exclusive clubs, class sizes, campus geographies, etc. The reality is that colleges are very different and it does indeed affect how people of different groups interact with one another.</p>
<p>Where do the 60-70% figures come from?</p>
<ul>
<li><p>"In 2005-2006, 63% of all Yale undergraduates received financial assistance of some kind" (Yale Admissions website)</p></li>
<li><p>"About 90 percent of students attending The University of Iowa receive some form of financial aid" (Iowa admissions)</p></li>
<li><p>"Two-thirds of all undergraduates receive some form of financial assistance" (Harvard admissions)</p></li>
</ul>
<p>I could go on and on for pages with these, but there's no need. Numbers like this won't tell you anything. They're all over the place because they're all measured differently, CDS form or not. My point is only that the numbers you cited above clearly do not give any indication of the level of socioeconomic diversity in anyone's freshman class -- even if you assumed they were accurate comparisons between the schools in terms of percentages of people on aid, which they aren't even close to being, they still would not account for the magnitude of aid awards or the percentage of students who are receiving larger awards versus smaller awards.</p>
<p>
Incorrect. When loans are considered, the percentages of students actually receiving aid are closer to 60-70% at these schools.
</p>
<p>
- "In 2005-2006, 63% of all Yale undergraduates received financial assistance of some kind" (Yale Admissions website)
</p>
<p>You’re not really looking at the right number, posterX.</p>
<p>Sure, sure. Yale aid + outside loans/scholarships = 63%. But that’s not really the important number here is it? We want to see, for starters, what Yale itself gives undergraduates. Since you chose the Yale admissions website, here’s a quote from the exact same page:</p>
<p>
[quote]
In the 2005-2006 year, over 41% of all Yale undergraduates received need-based aid from Yale.
[/quote]
<p>Now, let’s compare this number with its direct equivalent at Princeton:
[quote]
Princeton continues to enhance the economic diversity of its undergraduate population, as 55 percent of the freshman class enrolled in 2006 is receiving financial aid under the University’s groundbreaking “no loan” program.
[/quote]
<p>Sure, another 22% of Yalies manage to get loans or scholarships from elsewhere, but then, so do Princetonians. If were to assume that an additional 22% of Princetonians get loans from elsewhere as well, then a grand total of 77% of Princetonians get aid of some sort.</p>
<p>And frankly, the only reason why 22% of Princeton students would not get outside aid might be because, well…after the grants we get from Princeton, we really don’t need to as much, do we?</p>
<p>In any event, I can’t really tell if you’re deliberately misleading or just very confused, but I hope the numbers above put this matter to rest.</p>