<p>and in case u were wondering about the rest:</p>
<ol>
<li>Stanford</li>
<li>Harvard</li>
<li>Princeton</li>
<li>MIT</li>
<li>Yale</li>
<li>U Chicago</li>
<li>Cornell</li>
<li>U Mich</li>
<li>UCLA</li>
</ol>
<p>Oh, and stefo, the NRC has the most accepted departmental rankings in the country, and in math they rank Princeton 1st, Harvard 4th.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>I don't think they ever ranked institutions as a whole, but rather in a number of disciplines, not all of which are offered everywhere.</p></li>
<li><p>The NRC rankings are now so seriously out of date as to be pretty much obsolete. Many of the Deparmental rankings are 10-14 years old now. The NRC originally intended to redo these deparmental assessments every 10 years, but the project has gotten bogged down in academic politics (at many schools, faculties are extremely hostile towards participating in any "ranking" of colleges or universities, except in the most general way - "good, better, best", perhaps.) It now seems likely that the new "rankings" (or whatever) won't appear until 2007, if ever.</p></li>
<li><p>At the moment, the USNews surveys of graduate programs and departments are about all we have to go on that is anywhere near current.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>as far as math goes, the putnam competition is routinely won by either mit or harvard, who a major math rivalry
princeton is nowhere to be found
harvard also offers math 55, a course that is far beyond any princeton (or mit) freshman math course (considering mits best freshmen cross register to take it).
also, harvard offers far more math course than princeton
so, judging by the students (imo kids choose harvard or mit) and the course selection id say harvard is without a doubt superior to princeton iun math
your ratings are bogus, whatever the hell they are based on</p>
<p>stefo30385, cmon, maybe princeton isnt quite as good as harvard for the putnam contest. last year, one of the fellows, ana caraiani was from princeton. it is rumored that she was in fact the highest scorer as well. and, shes a freshman.</p>
<p>Well Byerly, NRC DOES rate whole institutions as I just showed you, they just also happen to have program rankings. And, although I agree they are out of date, it's true that every university I've visited used it to rank its programs. Therefore, it is still considered the standard for ranking individual majors/programs.</p>
<p>I guess we can agree to disagree about the continued viability of the NRC ratings.</p>
<p>Rankings that compare Princeton and Harvard become practically useless when you realize that Harvard's Graduate schools are also considered in the equation. For undergraduate there is no doubt that Princeton is the Best and the #1 Place to Be. For graduate, that's another story.</p>
<p>For undergrad, Princeton is the better option by a long shot. For graduate school, Harvard is unbeatable. The optimal solution: go to Princeton for undergraduate studies ---> then go to Harvard for your graduate degree.</p>
<p>
[quote]
futajalon:
"you must be baiting you-know-whom? This 62-year old Harvard alumni interviewer loves to visit websites populated by teenagers and argue with them till dawn about posts like yours. Only post when Harvard is #1 or you're in for endless rancor. He posts 24/7 for lack of alternative social relationships. Watch him show up soon after this post."</p>
<p>Byerly:
"here's an update on those consus rankings"</p>
<p>LOL. Futajalon you are a psychic. I can't believe Byerly still posted after you said that!
[/quote]
</p>
<p>They are the same person.</p>
<p>Ubermensch I'm not psychic. I've watched this guy for years. I know his MO. He's so boringly predictable. Geniezclone. If you didn't have 255 posts I'd think NYCFan has morphed again and posted to throw the scent off himself. NYCFan, aka Byerly, is most likely chuckling at your post. He'll soon appear to attack my post. He can't resist. Ok, let me see if this will coax him out: NYCFan, aka Byerly, claims to have invented the acronym TTT. A former Tufts poster who went by the handle "Jumbo" claims the same and I'm more inclined to believe him. Stand by.</p>
<p>gianeve, all those rankings are for colleges, not grad school
so i dont think its fair to say that princeton "wins by a long shot", the schools are about evenly matched (or harvard is better if you look at the rankings)</p>
<p>and chibearsfan, you still havent replied to the post i made about harvard math</p>
<p>Princeton is the third most winningest school in the Putnam competition up till 1995, with MIT at second place with only one point more. Princeton has had more success than Stanford, Yale and Berkeley combined. With their recent successes, i doubt theyve dropped much since then. ( <a href="http://math.pepperdine.edu/putnam.html%5B/url%5D">http://math.pepperdine.edu/putnam.html</a> ).
Its quite flawed to say that Princeton is nowhere to be found here...</p>
<p>yea, but harvard is still better than princeton in math, both in students and the quality or courses
that was the point i was trying to make</p>
<p>No, because you can't just use the Putnam to say that. Duke has been performing exceptionally well in recent years while Stanford doesn't do that well. Would anyone ever contend that Duke is even comparable to the likes of Harvard, MIT or Princeton for undergrad math?
Using Putnam rankings is just meaningless. The quality of math programs at Harvard, MIT, Princeton and Stanford are the same.</p>
<p>no school in the nation offers a freshman course comparable to math 55, not even mit</p>
<p>Thats great, now that proves absolutely nothing. Math 55 is a unique course. Fantastic. There are many advanced students at MIT, Princeton, Stanford, etc. that just start off in advanced analysis or partial diff eq. Harvard's system is just different. Maybe you should look at the NRC rankings that actually measure something, such as the quality of the school's faculty. THAT would tell you the quality of their courses. You can't say Harvard is better simply because it offers a course that other schools don't.</p>
<p>Princeton is one of the most well established math programs in the world. It is home to a distinguished faculty, including Andrew Wiles. Just look at the winners of Fields Medals (<a href="http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0192505.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0192505.html</a>), Princeton is home to the greatest math talent anywhere. Along with the Institute for Advanced Study that would offer Princetonians ample research opportunities, the two institutions dominate the Fields Medal. And lets not forget, Princeton alone also produced more medalists than Harvard. </p>
<p>The two programs are the best around, you're really being quite stupid to discredit Princeton's Math department.</p>
<p>IAS is not at all affiliated with the university, pimpdaddy
and sadly to quote byerly the NRC ratings are 7 years out of date
and math 55 is MUCH harder that analysis or diff eq, trust me, some of the best best math students in the world struggle with it
my point was merely to demonstrate that harvard has the best pure math program in the nation, which several ppl on this board dont seem to realize
i am only talking pure math, not applied (where princeton probly has harvard beat by a long shot)
and saying its less than the best is hardly discrediting the program, im just trying to disprove a misconception</p>
<p>Stefo, you are incorrect. I didn't say they are affiliated, I implied the fact that they have very close relations (<a href="http://etc.princeton.edu/CampusWWW/Companion/institute_advanced_study.html%5B/url%5D">http://etc.princeton.edu/CampusWWW/Companion/institute_advanced_study.html</a>)
The entire institute used to be on campus... Princeton students benefit from it just as a college would benefit from being near the NIH or Brookhaven.</p>
<p>I know Math 55 is hard. I know "the best best math students in the world struggle with it." In fact, I personally know three kids from my high school that have taken/are taking math 55. But it still remains that math 55 is ONE INTRODUCTORY course at Harvard. Saying its whole undergrad math program is better because it has one hard intro math course is kinda foolish, no? </p>
<p>I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you want to go into math and you're choosing between Harvard and Princeton, you CANNOT choose based on the strength of their programs because they are the same and they are both the best. Putting MIT aside because of their weaknesses in other areas (which negatively affect your undergraduate experience), if you are looking for the best in undergrad math you can get it at Harvard OR Princeton. If your only argument to show that Harvard is better relies on the fact that they have one course that Princeton does, it really goes to show how equal the programs are. Base your choice on the many differences between the schools. Pick between Cambridge, MA and Princeton, NJ. Choose between a small undergrad body and a large undergrad body. Choose either Orange or Crimson. But whatever you do, don't base your decision on the difference between Harvard math and Princeton math because there is none.</p>
<p>The way I see things, crimson is a much better colour than orange. It is higher than orange, on its own plane beyond basic colours.</p>
<p>im pretty sure that harvard also offers a greater variety of courses, which is pretty significant
and the i never said the differences are major, but they are enough to give harvard the edge if you had to choose the best math department in the nation</p>
<p>What edge? Look back at your original argument, all those arguments have been overturned. (As for the IMO one, theres an IMO kid in my friend's writing seminar and I dunno how many others are here but I'm guessing there are more.) </p>
<p>From what you're saying, it just seems like you just don't know enough about Princeton, which is fine cause I'm guessing you go to Harvard. A greater variety of courses that I'm too lazy to check on is the best you can do? Well that really doesn't mean much now does it? Berkeley, Michigan and Cornell probably have more courses than either Harvard or Princeton just based on their size. Princeton's dept is smaller and that comes with its own advantages that would easily outweigh Harvard's variety. </p>
<p>As gianievve said, Princeton does offer a better undergraduate experience and if you're decision is going to come down to anything, it should come down to that.</p>
<p>And on that note, I'm not going to post in a long long time because this is a waste of time and I really should finish my essay.</p>