<p>hes kinda indie rock/alternative ish =P</p>
<p>Thanks.</p>
<p>Maybe he'll be there again next year.</p>
<p>ben folds is good stuff.
anyone here a big switchfoot fan?</p>
<p>Cricket has described an experience similar to that of my d, re the very small classes with world-class profs, the enthusiasm, etc. I just want to address very specifically the question of access to grad courses, because the Princeton catalogue can be a bit misleading. </p>
<p>For example, as a first-year student my d was in an undergrad seminar of 15 students, taught by a prof who has dual appointments at Princeton and a nearby, highly prestigious professional school. The prof is preeminent in the field on a global level. The course my d took was identical to the one this professor was giving his professional school students. However, because it was a class of 15, my d and the others got to know the prof well, went to outside lectures with the prof, had lots of outside conversations, etc., and my d began to do research for this prof (doing exactly the same work as another student at the prof's professional school). When asked to send out references on behalf of my d for paid summer internships, the prof was able to say all this in the recommendation. We have nothing to complain about, to say the least.</p>
<p>The only real problem with Princeton's courses is that there are far too many for any undergrad to take in four years.</p>
<p>However, because Princeton does not have professional schools, it would be easy for anyone perusing the website to miss many of the opportunities. Let's say a student wants to go to law school, for example. It is pretty easy to see that the Woodrow Wilson school and the Politics department offer undergrad courses and seminars that relate. There are others in Women's Studies and African-American Studies. If a student wants to focus on his or her writing, the Council for the Humanities offers a series of seminars by a, well, ridiculously preeminent group of professional journalists: <a href="http://www.princeton.edu/%7Ehumcounc/visiting-professors-of-journalism.shtml%5B/url%5D">http://www.princeton.edu/~humcounc/visiting-professors-of-journalism.shtml</a> Then there are the lectures and courses in the Program in Law and Public Affairs. And there is the James Madison program, where students (liberals or conservatives) can be Junior Fellows and go to dinner with amazing visiting judges, Kissinger, Scalia, etc. <a href="http://web.princeton.edu/sites/jmadison/about/mission.htm%5B/url%5D">http://web.princeton.edu/sites/jmadison/about/mission.htm</a> </p>
<p>What Princeton offers are the incredible resources of a world-class university located in a major metropolitan area (thus attracting many preeminent visiting scholars and lecturers) with the focus on undergrads you find at a LAC.</p>
<p>I have just returned from visiting both H and P (and Yale, which wasn't too cool...). Both are fabulous schools with great top-notch profs (many who have written the texts used as curriculum). Both have a great reputation (they're tied for No. 1 in US News rankings, although Harvard does have a better international rep). Both have large endowments from their many happy alumni.</p>
<p>I think that you need to figure out what kind of atmosphere/environment you want for your college years. Princeton is very suburban and has an expansive and beautiful campus. Harvard on the other hand is urban and situated in a great college town. But to me, Princeton seemed so much more relaxed in general. Harvard seemed to have a much more stressful and academic feel. The students I talked to at Harvard didn't regret their decision (though a couple did), but kind of felt that their four years of incredibly hard work and stress was a necessary evil in order to obtain a Harvard degree. Everyone I met at Princeton loved their school and was still managing to have a really fun college experience (they still do work though). </p>
<p>I also think that Princeton does have a better undergrad focus- mainly because the profs teach almost all undergrad classes and thus can focus entirely on these classes while Harvard's profs have to divide their attention between their undergrads and swarms of grads. </p>
<p>I also liked the social scene at Princeton more- the Eating clubs provide an established social scene with varied activities and feels. As a Princeton student you know exactly where the social scene is going to be- and there are so many clubs that you can always find something to do. Plus Philly and NY are only 1 hour away. At Harvard the social scene seemed to be much less important to students, mainly because they were more focused on their work. (Though Cambridge has so much going on).</p>
<p>I think that I've blabbered on enough for now. Good luck to everyone else with their decisions. For me, Princeton is 1st, Harvard is 2nd, and Yale is trailing far behind in 3rd. But I'm still going to see Stanford this weekend, so who knows what will happen...</p>
<p>It really depends on your personal preference. For me, I really liked the fact that Harvard is in an urban city/college town (there is a greater concentration of college students at Boston than at any other city in the world). I also liked all the graduate/professional schools at Harvard because I'd be able to take classes at those schools (except for Harvard Business...but you can take classes instead at MIT Sloan). You can also cross-register at MIT so if you ever want to go into engineering, you have the best tech school in the world as a next-door neighbor (engineering is Harvard's only weak department). Another advantage of having grad schools is that they attract all the top speakers. When I did my overnight stay at Harvard in March, there were 4-5 famous speakers speaking at Harvard's various grad schools and one at the College all in one day (including the CEO of Samsung, a Undersecretary of Defense, and a micro-biologist) and they're all open to undergrads. When I was at Princeton, I couldn't remember seeing/hearing about any speakers on that day (but that is not to say there aren't any). So, for me, Harvard really is unbeatable in terms of resources (not to mention H's phenomenal libararies) and they're all available to undergraduates as well. BTW: Princeton's engineering department is NOT that much superior to Harvard's. P's is only a few rankings above Harvard (both are in the 20s). If you really want to do engineering, don't go to either...cos they both kinda suck. However, at Harvard, you can take classes at MIT which is what a lot of H engineering students do)</p>
<p>In terms of general atmosphere...I agree, Princeton has a more relaxed feel. I felt that at Harvard, there was a more intense atmosphere. H students seem to do a lot more (academics, extracurriculars, jobs, athletics, etc)...so much that they seem almost stressed. But I think it's totally up to the person. You could limit yourself to only a few activities (which was what my host adviced me to do) but then you'd be missing out on a lot of the amazing opportunities at Harvard. And also, the eating clubs at Princeton really turned me off when I visited. The fact that they're the only dining option for upperclassmen (besides cooking for yourself) also sucked.</p>
<p>NB: just thought I'd touch upon cricket's post about his experience at Princeton. I had a similar experience when I visited Harvard...students walking me to classes instead of just giving directions, extremely nice professors, etc. I had the most wonderful host imaginable who took me all over campus to different dorms and even to some of the grad schools. My point: it's only one person's experience (yes, I'm including myself in this as well). Don't let one person's extremely positive or negative visit influence your decision too much.</p>
<p>So, in conclusion: it's your decision (though you probably can tell that I'm totally biased...lol). And you really can't go wrong with either choice. So happy choosing!</p>
<p>EDIT: Oh, and I forgot the primary reason why many people (including me) chose Harvard over other top colleges (yes, I've decided): the other students! The student body at Harvard is truly amazing - definitely more diverse than P's. Also H wins the vast majority of the cross admits to P and Y.</p>
<p>Actually I think Princeton has some pretty good dining options. For one thing, for the first two years you can eat at any dining hall, so you can meet friends from any residential college for meals (friends from pre-orientation, classes, ec's, etc) or you can eat in whichever dining hall is convenient (like if you have a class closer to one dining hall for lunch, for instance). Or, you can eat at Frist, or at a friend's eating club. And upper classmen can choose to eat at eating clubs, cook, have a meal plan, (or a combination of these) and there is the four-year college upcoming. I suppose you can eat at any of the little restaurants within walking distance too. </p>
<p>You're absolutely right that we cannot expect anyone to have exactly the same experiences at any college as another person, and that my observations and experiences are mine, as yours are yours. That's why it's great to talk to a lot of people and of course to visit schools when possible. But I would note that even on just this thread, Nopoisonivy, Aparent5, and Senioritis04 had similar experiences and noted the same atmosphere at Princeton: academic, but friendly and helpful with a lot of school spirit. </p>
<p>Of course there are great people at Harvard! Sheesh.
I'd say Princeton's admits --41% from minority backgrounds, 50% on aid, students from all 50 states and 46 countries, 58% from public schools/42 private or parochial-- are a mix of people of all sorts of backgrounds. And each of us is unique anyway.</p>
<p>Your post implies that you chose Harvard over Princeton, and I think that is not so. You liked Princeton well enough to apply, but did not have the dilemma of having to choose between the two, along with your other fine choices, no? But the very fact that you had the choice of Harvard and other top colleges in this very tough admission climate says a lot for the type of student and person you must be. Congrats on your successes, and have a great four years!</p>
<p>have you made your decision yet?
this is in reference to something you said a while ago about harvard bashing at yale...
I'm sure there is yale bashing at harvard too, you know?</p>
<p>i think you were just posturing for a way to figure out how you can eliminate HYP down to just H without sounding like you were picking H because it's H lol</p>
<p>No, I'm choosing between H and Y. But I posted on this thread cos I personally have met David_Rune, so I'm just trying to convince him to come to Harvard (lol :P) since he's already eliminated Y. And no, I'm definitely not choosing H just cos it's H...I never even really liked H until I visited (I applied to SCEA Yale). Needless to say, I had a great time. And yes, I'm sure there's Yale bashing at H too. But definitely not to the same degree. When I visited H, no one batted an eye when I said I also applied to Yale and Princeton, whereas at Yale, most people literally attacked me for even considering Harvard. To be fair, there are negatives to Harvard too. Very little school spirit (even my interviewer said so) and relatively larger classes when compared to Y and P. Oh, and yeah, everyone hates Harvard (lol).</p>
<p>"H students seem to do a lot more (academics, extracurriculars, jobs, athletics, etc)..."</p>
<p>I'm not sure where you are getting that. When I visited H, Y and P I got the same impression and heard the same comments from students: these are young people who are incredibly energetic and accomplished, busy running music, politics, dance, social and other groups, playing varsity, club, and intramural sports, and starting their own businesses. I don't think you will find a difference in this regard among these three schools. I have been on the Princeton campus a lot this spring and am amazed at how many of the extracurriculars are as demanding as full-time jobs...on top of heavy academic loads. And on top of going to all sorts of parties, formals, semiformals, etc., that are time-honored traditions and much-loved by students, as they are at H and Y. </p>
<p>In fact, both H and P's students have been criticized for doing too much. H's online guide for frosh advises them not to do more than 2 activities and not to feel the need to start a new club when a related one already exists. And one well-known article on this topic is based on the author's experiences at Princeton:
<a href="http://career.ucsd.edu/parents/TOK.shtml%5B/url%5D">http://career.ucsd.edu/parents/TOK.shtml</a></p>
<p>It was probably the more relaxed atmosphere I found at Princeton that gave me the impression (and also maybe the fact that I visited on a Monday morning). As for Yale...Bulldog Day perhaps isn't typical of an average day at Y (my host didn't do ANY school work the entire 2 days I was there...she was either out partying or watching TV or visiting friends...she also told me that the work load was lighter than HS's which I found hard to believe).</p>
<p>aparent5 -- I have to say, that article makes me feel like a prospective mutant. :p Good bit of perspective, though.</p>
<p>Here is a student response to "Princeton or Harvard?" from a thread a few pages back.</p>
<p>Quoting CHRISTOPHER:</p>
<p>"I always loved Harvard. I was set on going there for years, but I had a change of heart after thoroughly researching PHYS (pronounced "fizz"--princeton, harvard, yale, stanford). Princeton to me emerged as a clear choice, I decided to apply early, and I'm happy to say that I'll be a Tiger next year. Here were some of the things I found that debunked the myth of Harvard in my mind and caused me to apply to Princeton instead:</p>
<p>-Yes, Harvard has a larger endowment than Princeton. BUT, remember Princeton is a smaller school. If you look at the size of the schools' endowments in proportion to the size of their student bodies, Princeton has the largest endowment per capita out of any university in the world, bar none. (This means that Princeton has the most money to spend on each student.)</p>
<p>-Princeton offers an undergraduate-oriented experience. Princeton's has 5 students per faculty member, while harvard has 8 per faculty member. You will see comparably impressive faculty names at both Harvard and Princeton, but at Harvard, many of those professors are not accessible to undergraduates, whereas at Princeton nearly all of those world-renowned faculty members teach undergraduates. Remember, Princeton has a comparatively tiny grad school population, so nearly all of those names that you see are working in undergrad classes that you could take. In my last visit, it was amazing to see professor Einstein's and John Nash's classrooms. You will actually be able to take classes as an undergraduate with professors like Cornel West (a "star" professor who left Harvard for Princeton because of Princeton's more accepting atmosphere). In fact, he even teaches a freshman seminar (which usually range from 10-15 students). </p>
<p>-The two campuses are a matter of preference, but for me Princeton wins out. One of the reasons I chose to apply early to princeton rather than harvard was that I went to harvard summer school this summer and took a course in literature. First of all, I'll admit that the immediate area of Cambridge, the bums on the road playing music, and the hustle and bustle of cars, can be very charming. It gets old and distracting, though. For my 8 weeks there, the campus was constantly under siege by tourists, and I know a couple of people who had valuables stolen when thieves jumped through the first story dorm windows. I did not feel like my things were safe inside my dorm. Strangers even found their way into my dorm once (despite the ID card swipe at the front). Being in an urban area also means that it was very loud in mine and many other dorms. In the hot summer especially, keeping windows open is a must, which isn't good when you have a highway right next to you with police sirens and fire engines waking you up at all hours of the night. In contrast, Princeton is situated in a (virtually) crime-free area with a nice town next door for basic needs. There are also some really neat areas in the areas immediately surrounding Princeton, too. P's campus is quieter. This, I didn't like at first, until I passed by their train station and saw that New York and Philadelphia are just quick train-rides away, and that the different res. colleges routinely host events in NYC like cheap broadway trips, etc. The campus population is much more tied with the city than you would think. And the nice thing? You can get as much hustle and bustle as you want with your Pton friends in the city, and you can always come back to a safe environment where you can focus on learning without all of the problems of an urban campus. (Personally I like Princeton's gothic architecture, too). </p>
<p>-In terms of prestige, Harvard is a universally recognized name. If that's all you're going for, go to Harvard. Princeton is less widely recognized to the layperson, but as I've found out since my acceptance, the school is very prestigious. I only told a couple of people in secret, and within less than one day, the whole school new. Even total strangers from surrounding schools knew. Parents knew. Even with all of this, I'll still admit that H is more of a brand name, but that's because Princeton does not have a large grad school program, and its undergrad program is also comparatively small. Most of what happens that makes Harvard so prestigious happens at the grad schools. If you're taking rankings into consideration, I've heard (haven't verified--i'm not much for rankings) that princeton has been #1 or co-#1 in USNews for the past 5 years straight. If you look at the USNews' selectivity ranking and Princeton Review's selectivity ranking, both place Princeton about 3 places above Harvard (these selectivity rankings take into account not just percent admitted, but also the quality of the applicant pool). A new ranking is out that averages all the other rankings and takes into account previous years' rankings and statistics places Princeton at the top. Harvard has inflated its admission numbers to low percentages partly by sending out pamphlets and applications to students across America who are registered with the Student Search Service (which students sign up for when they take the SAT), encouraging them to apply, knowing fully that most of them are underqualified. This is one way in which they bolster their admission percentages. On the other hand, I have never received one unsolicited letter from Princeton, because to my knowledge, they don't send them. Princeton's applicant pool is self-selecting (people find and choose the school independently), which makes their admissions statistics, which are comparable to harvard's, very impressive. It's also why Princeton is ranked higher in terms of selectivity--because the applicant pool is more qualified--not as much of an element of kids who are fooling themselves because they got a letter from Harvard telling them to apply. While Harvard peddles prestige, Princeton's reputation has come independently from the quality of the students, faculty, administration, and campus.
I noticed a difference in attitude in the students while at both campuses. The qualities of the different schools seemed to attract different types of students. The students at Harvard both at the summer school and the admission session were prestige-hungry and stiff. I realize that my exposure to the people was limited, but this was the very clear impression that I got. Just look at the Coop, which dedicates multiple levels of the store to selling Harvard-logo paraphernalia. By the end of the summer, I was sick of all the crimson. It seemed that students had lost focus on why they were really there: to study, to learn. It was so commercial, so touristy. In contrast, even though my visits to princeton were more brief, I was impressed by the student body and applicants. I didn't see any of the preppiness that everyone had talked about. As a matter of fact, I don't even remember seeing one popped collar in my entire visit. I got lost on the campus on my way to Frist, and several students, noticing the look on my face, asked me if they could help, and they personally guided me across the campus to the center. Everyone seemed down-to-earth and happy to be there, and happy to have such an educational opportunity, which I suppose is reflected in the rankings, with Princeton placed among P. Review's "happiest students" (harvard is not even on the list. in fact, H law school has some of the nation's law schools' least happy students). </p>
<p>-If you're looking for diversity, Princeton is very different from its image. Everyone seems to remember the extremely preppy Carleton from the TV show "Fresh Prince" applying to Princeton. The school was portrayed as a big country club. I didn't find this to be the case when I was there. Princeton is known to have the best financial aid program of all the ivies (no-loan program), and on top of that it is the 2nd least expensive ivy (behind cornell), which attracts a diverse student body. Also, the campus is very open to new people and new ideas. As i mentioned earlier, Cornel West, one of Harvard's former stars, came to Princeton because of this openness. I've also heard that gay students are happy and unified, and that the university administration is so supportive that it has gone as far as to create a permanent position in the administration at Frist that acts as a gay student resource officer. The campus has even openly welcomed debates and discussions with controversial speakers like Fidel Castro. Everyone has a voice on campus, liberal, conservative, gay, straight, black, white. In contrast, I've heard that Harvard is less cohesive. The sense of community at Princeton is part of the reason why kids love the school, and why they're so happy. In the spirit of Whig-Clio (the first debating society in the country, started at princeton), the students and campus organizations have lively debates, but in the end the campus is a flourishing and friendly community.</p>
<p>-I'll admit that Harvard beats princeton in the colors department. Orange and black do seem garish, but princetonians wear their stripes with pride. </p>
<p>For those of you faced with the decision, I urge you to question what you want in a college. When I questioned my fascination with Harvard, I realized exactly how substantive my reasoning was. I had bought into the hype, the Legally Blonde syndrome. I was making my decision based on the reaction I would get when I told strangers who've been indoctrinated with Harvard Hype. You will feel an empty satisfaction if you make your selection based on rankings or prestige. </p>
<p>I'm not trying to say that Harvard is not a good school. It definitely deserves a place among the top in the country. Ultimately, you need to question your own reasons, what has driven your success so far in life, and choose what school fits your aspirations."</p>
<p>I said "student" but I think Christopher is actually an '09, although I don't see him on the '09 list in 2009 subforum, so I am not certain. </p>
<p>And Christopher, if you're out there, maybe you have a link to that webpage you made, for any new Tigers. Thanks!</p>
<p>That is one of the most profound descriptions of Princeton I have ever seen. I am sold!</p>
<p>The overwhelming majority of common admits choose Harvard over Princeton, and always have. </p>
<p>It seems unlikely (as some here imply) that the kids choosing Princeton do so for noble reasons, while those choosing Harvard do so for shallow, ignoble reasons.</p>
<p>This writer explained why the tendency of the top students to prefer Harvard becomes, fairly or not, a self-perpetuating sort of trend:</p>
<p>"The Laissez-Faire Ranking identifies quality with selectivity. It takes
the historical and etymological view that a college is a "chosen company"
and attempts to rank colleges by the membership they attract. It lets the
best applicants point to the best colleges. Bright kids pay attention to
selectivity when they look at colleges because they want to go where their
peers are going. With their matriculation, they help compose a superior
community, thereby confirming received opinion."</p>
<p><a href="http://collegeadmissions.tripod.com/%5B/url%5D">http://collegeadmissions.tripod.com/</a></p>
<p>It never fails to amaze me how the only way Princeton promoters seem to know to promote Princeton is to badmouth Harvard. There is virtually nothing that "Christopher" says about Harvard in the post quoted above that is accurate.</p>
<p>I also have to question the sanity of anyone who would choose Princeton in order to take a freshman seminar with Cornel West. ;)</p>
<p>Funny how people only see what they WANT to see. while you may perceive princeton fans badmouthing harvard, you have to be blind to ignore byerly's constant badmouthing of ANYTHING NOT Harvard (and, in particular, Yale and Princeton). I don't see you calling HIM out for that.</p>
<p>Come on, he is sharing his personal experience. Of course it will biased but what isn't? Look this isn't the first and certainly won't be the last time someone "badmouths" Harvard, so frankly get over it. Byerly and cosar it is understood you have a profound admiration for Harvard but could you please not attack someone just because they had a negative experience at Harvard. Maybe you may characterize it as stereotyping and perhaps it is contrary to your experience at Harvard but it is christopher's opinion. At least that is my two cents.</p>