Princeton vs Dartmouth vs UChicago vs Williams

Colleges & Universities A-Z Princeton University
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<p>Hi! I'm having difficulty choosing amongst Princeton, Dartmouth, Williams and UChicago. The aid is best at UChic, but I'm appealing the packages at Princeton and Dartmouth, and the Williams one hasn't come in yet. </p>

<p>I would like to be an English major and I'm from Jamaica. I know that most of my extracurriculars, i.e. Music, Creative Writing, Student Gov, are offered at the above schools, but I hope people can shed light on the facilities and resources involved in the above. I also would like to participate in an amateur dance class (I'm not very good at all and I wouldn't necessarily like a competitive environment), and maybe join some sort of international club. I know that these maybe aren't the best reasons to choose a college, but I figure that with my major that is pretty common, an aid package that hasn't been finalised and the existence of heavy snow in all four areas (:O), I can begin to factor extra-currics into my decision!</p>

<p>If anyone has any input regarding location, campus attitude towards Internationals, special attributes of the school (e.g. Princeton's Eating Clubs, UChic's core, Dartmouth's D-Plan, Williams' tutorials) it would also be much appreciated.</p>

<p>(This is also my first post, so if I'm including this thread in the wrong area, please tell me! thanks)</p>

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<p>Congratulations! Princeton’s weather is noticeably less wintery than the other 3 locations. But in all honesty, Princeton’s faculty and students will be a very small, but noticeable, click more able than those at the other places you are considering.</p>

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<p>Thanks, Alumother! I’m not too fussed about Winter (I think), but it’s good to know :). Also, I’m not quite sure what you mean by “click more able”. Again, thanks for replying!</p>

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<p>I mean a little bit more able. :)</p>

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<p>^Wow what a statement.</p>

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<p>Williams is the most different from the others in that it has a wholly undergraduate emphasis. The Oxford-inspired tutorial program is unique in the U.S., and allows two students to interact with a dedicated professor for the entire semester. Location wise, Williams and Dartmouth are the more rural choices, Chicago is in a major city and Princeton is suburban. Princeton is arguably the more clique-y of your choices what with its eating clubs (was historically the ivy league choice of the southern gentleman). From a graduate/professional school perspective, all of these schools are feeders to the best programs.</p>

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<p>Yeah, I know everyone will hate what I said about students and professors being more able. I mean on average. On average. Or else the whole system is completely random and based on prestige. </p>

<p>And Dad2, I don’t actually believe you know what you are talking about when it comes to Princeton’s social system. The clubs have their issue - kids get rejected from the Bicker clubs and a percentage finds that very hard and never comes round to believing that their alternate choice was the best for them. But it’s actually one of the more socially inclusive schools around, just because the clubs are so visible and easy to find. They are very often open to everyone, and passes are easy to come by. </p>

<p>Remember, I graduated in 78 and hated the clubs. My kids have loved them. I’d tell you if the truth were otherwise.</p>

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<p>I disagree strongly with Dad2 about the cliquey nature of Princeton versus Williams and Dartmouth–that’s an old canard that is no longer true.</p>

<p>In terms of the OP’s questions, I’d like to highlight a few areas. Princeton’s creative writing program is widely acknowledged to be one of the best in the country. Its professors include/have included Joyce Carol Oates, Jeffrey Eugenides, Chang-rae Lee, Paul Muldoon, Edmund White and Toni Morrison and it offers amazing opportunities to meet and work with some of the best teachers/authors in the field. In terms of dance, the Princeton academic dance program has been around for over 40 years and offers numerous classes for the non-major. Here’s a link to the program, [Courses</a> - Lewis Center for the Arts](<a href=“http://www.princeton.edu/arts/arts_at_princeton/dance/courses/]Courses”>Courses - Lewis Center for the Arts). In addition, you can take non-credit classes in ballet (daily classes offered) and modern dance (twice weekly classes offered ) for free. Here’s the link [Co-curricular</a> Offerings - Lewis Center for the Arts](<a href=“http://www.princeton.edu/arts/arts_at_princeton/dance/co-curricular/]Co-curricular”>The Broadway Dance Series: Bandstand) If you’re interested in performing, there are lots of dance groups on campus, with varying degrees of expertise. </p>

<p>In terms of other areas, Princeton requires all students to do junior papers/projects and senior theses. Creative writing concentrators often write plays, novellas, poetry etc. The existence of these research papers/projects tends to bind the student body together–a sort of “we’re all in this together” type of mentailty. In addition, it can lead to work that is often of a high level and can serve as a springboard to additional future research. The school has a huge emphasis on undergraduates and undergraduate teaching and professors are readily available for help, conversation and friendship. </p>

<p>While people might have differing views on the eating clubs, there are 5 of them which are available to anyone who wants to sign up. As Alumother has stated, the clubs are often open to everyone and on a given Saturday night, you can find your friends walking up and down Prospect Street going to parties–it’s nice to have a focal point for social life and kids at Princeton know they can always go to a party on a weekend if they want to. But the clubs are not the be all and end all of social life at Princeton. There are constant theater, music, dance and sporting events and Princeton students are extremely supportive of each other. Moreover, New York City is about 1 hr and 15 minutes away, served by an on-campus train line, and students can and do go into the city to meet friends, go to clubs, interview, go to shows etc.</p>

<p>You have a number of great choices–location is one of the factors I would think about. Dartmouth and Williams are very rural, located in very small, beautiful towns, Chicago is located in a vibrant midwestern city and Princeton, to my mind, sort of offers the best of both worlds. It’s located in a beautiful, active suburb, with lots of nice stores and restaurants right near the campus, but it’s also only a short train ride from NYC.</p>

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<p>Thanks so much!
@Dad2 I had heard about the Williams tutorial programme, but I didn’t know it was unique in the US. Do you know anyone who experienced the programme and found it especially helpful? Thanks!</p>

<p>@Alumother I have a godmother who went to Princeton in the 80s, and she implied that the eating clubs were considered very elitist in her time, but have gone through some significant changes since then as far as she knows.</p>

<p>@midatlmom Thank you so much for the extremely detailed and helpful response! I knew that Joyce Carol Oates and Toni Morrison were professors at Princeton, but I hadn’t heard about any of the authors you mentioned (especially Jeffrey Eugenides! Wow!!) and I was under the impression at first that these were mostly researchers, but I have since done some research and discovered (as you have rightfully stated) that there are several opportunities to work with them in the classroom. Thank you so much again for the information about the Ballet programme–I really like dancing, but don’t want to go into it as a major. The Junior/Senior projects I knew about, but was very interested to see how those work with Study Abroad programmes, and if the two conflict in any way. In terms of the Eating Clubs, it brings me much relief that they are neither seen as overly elitist or necessary; my alumni interviewer stated that she hadn’t bickered for an Eating Club yet she had had an excellent time there, but it’s good to have some confirmation as to a wonderful and fulfilling life outside of the clubs! Finally, thanks also for the input on the locations. It’s good to know that at Princeton there is much to do off campus!</p>

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<p>My son took creative writing from both Oates and Eugenides. Eugenides in particular was an astonishing teacher, and wound up inviting everyone to his house for dinner. Who should visit, that day, but Richard Ford. </p>

<p>And if you love dance but don’t want to major in it, the Princeton dance clubs are a big fun thing. DiSiac, eXpressions, etc. My daughter was in one of them, loved it. Audition for all of them and you are likely to end up somewhere.</p>

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<p>A little more on the Princeton Eating Clubs</p>

<p>particularly because one of the schools being considered, Dartmouth, is about 45% Greek</p>

<p>(from a previous post on another thread)</p>

<p>*oldfort, so let me see if I can understand this</p>

<p>at Princeton, only about 33% of the student body is a member of an Eating Club since only Juniors and Seniors can join. A full 6 of the 10 eating clubs are NON-SELECTIVE and a student is guaranteed a spot in one of their favorite eating clubs, yet your daughter thinks that this is “snobbish and exclusive” and prefers Sororities, which are 100% selective, leading to potential students that will be shut out of the Sororities membership at the school. In addition, the Eating Clubs are only for eating and socializing and not for sleeping, so the members will mix with the non members in one of the 6 Residential colleges versus the Sororities, which immediately separate the students from the rest of the student body since they also live at the facilities…</p>

<p>further, the 4 selective Eating Clubs average about a 50% acceptance rate, so if you desire to join one of the 4 selective eating clubs, there is a good chance that you will be admitted to one of the four.</p>

<p>In addition, sororities immediately eliminate about 50% of the undergraduate population by not allowing boys to join the sorority - creating another level of this extreme selectivity. Princeton’s Eating Clubs are all fully coed.</p>

<p>somehow, I am not following the reasoning of your daughter, or could it be that she is a little misinformed of the Princeton Eating Clubs?*</p>

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<p>I teach at a name-brand private high school on the East coast. With a couple exceptions, the kids we send to Princeton are arrogant or athletes, or both. A friend with a daughter at Princeton said that the blind ambition among freshman is a turn-off. </p>

<p>The junior papers and senior theses while in theory may be commendable are in practice not such great pedagogy: kids lose class time and face time with professors, and I am unconvinced they actually learn how to write. (Anyone ever take a look at Michelle Obama’s senior thesis? Woah.)</p>

<p>Chicago has a reputation for nerdiness, but so what? It had a 15% acceptance rate this year, which means that it’s going to give Duke and Dartmouth a run for their money. Be sure that you don’t mind being cold; weather sounds like a petty consideration, but because you’ll be spending four years there, take it seriously when you check off the boxes. </p>

<p>I don’t know anything about Williams and Dartmouth except that the latter gives alums’ kids preference.</p>

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<p>gee, so the one on one with top professors in the world in their respective fields for over a year for the Princeton students that is a result of the junior year paper and senior thesis causes these students to lose face time with professors?</p>

<p>what planet are you from?</p>

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<p>thanks for underscoring that Chicago should be used in conversations when comparing admits to Duke and Dartmouth, but certainly not at the level of Princeton.</p>

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<p>The junior papers and senior theses are what allow Princeton to be an intellectual powerhouse, despite eating clubs and spring classes on the lawn under magnolias, etc. Princeton’s a unique mix of intense thought/work, and parties on lawns.</p>

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<p>My daughter is a freshman at Princeton this year and she’s had a great time as well as a great education. Her friends are neither arrogant or cut throat. I’m sure you can find people like that at any college, pimenta 201. Maybe your elite school is full of those types. Maybe you didn’t like Michelle Obama’s thesis but take a good look at the alumni of Princeton, they’re leaders. Oh anyalm, my daughter is a dancer too and she’s had great opportunities this year. Next year, the dance program will be even better.</p>

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<p>Um, this is simply an uninformed statement. There is no loss of “face” time (whatever you mean by that). Most students take a full course load and the junior papers are on top of that and as japanoko has pointed out, students often/generally develop close relationships with their JP and senior thesis advisors. As to the writing component, while not everyone produces a work of art, working on a project where you are expected to come up with a tightly argued and cogent 100 page academic analysis is something most students are extremely proud of–in my judgment, the entire process results in students who are more organized, more analytical and better writers and thinkers than when they began. </p>

<p>And pimienta, I’m sorry that you don’t like the kids who have been accepted/matriculate at Princeton, but to be honest, I found your post kind of snide and I’m not sure I trust your judgment. I am an alumni interviewer for Princeton and the kids who are accepted and choose to attend don’t strike me as much different than the kids who choose not to attend or those who don’t get accepted. Most of the kids I interview are terrific–well spoken, idealistic and accomplished–regardless of where they wind up.</p>

<p>And by the way, I love Chicago and the funny thing is that I think that a lot of kids who wind up at Princeton have Chicago high up on their lists. Contrary to what you might think, there are lots of “nerds” at Princeton (as I’m sure there are at Williams and Dartmouth).</p>

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<p>I am going to respectfully disagree with pimienta. The personalities of many of the students at HYP or many other selective universities are very similar. The administrations are different and each has their own academic strengths but to characterize Princeton or Harvard students as all being arrogant is inaccurate. Since the majority of students at Princeton are from public high schools even a few arrogant preppies does not characterize the nature of the student body. Princeton students are very ambitious but not in a grade grubbing sort of way. You will make life long friendships. Princeton may have the highest rate of classmates returning for reunions in the country because Princeton students enjoy their years at the university and enjoy seeing their classmates again. The facts do not support the charge that Princeton students are “turned off’”.</p>

<p>I did my graduate work at MIT. My thesis advisor told me that the best predictor of a student’s ability to bear down to write a quality thesis on time was having previously completed a thesis. You may not have liked Michelle’s writing style but she was better prepared to write a masters or PhD thesis having completed her undergraduate thesis at Princeton. It is incredible to me to suggest that working with a professor one on one for independent research and a thesis means less “face time with professors”. This shows a lack of understanding of the role of thesis advisors, the time they spend with the students, and their dedication to personally tutor students.</p>

<p>One significant advantage for the best students is they are able to demonstrate their research potential and their thesis advisors can write meaningful recommendations for the students. Princeton students have an outstanding record in winning the most coveted graduate fellowships. The success of Princeton students is partly due to the independent research requirement. See: <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/12317531-post3.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/12317531-post3.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>Thanks again for the amazing responses!</p>

<p>@japanoko I’m not overly interested in Greek life, so I definitely wouldn’t count that as a deciding factor against Princeton/for Dartmouth. Unless Dartmouth provides an excluding environment for Non-Greek students, which would be a point against the school.</p>

<p>@ronib321 Thanks so much! I’m really glad Princeton has such a focus on their extracurriculars, and I love that they pay special attention to dancing.</p>

<p>@pimienta201 Correct me if I’m wrong about the theses: but aren’t they advised and reviewed by a supervisor? So can’t they not be terrible? I can’t be positive, but I wouldn’t count the quality/lack thereof as a significant drawback to Princeton’s curriculum.</p>

<p>@Alumother Thanks again! I thought the theses were just attempts made to introduce independent thought and writing, similar to the IB Extended Essay, except 5 times longer.</p>

<p>@midatlmom I was very proud of my IB EE! I know they’re not exactly the same, but I felt a tremendous sense of pride finishing it. I’m glad to know that at least at Princeton there’s a similar opportunity. </p>

<p>@PtonAlumnus Thank you so much for that link. It reminded me just how fortunate I was to be accepted into Princeton and all these other amazing schools, and just how difficult my decision is going to be. Although I’m not studying Science, it reminds me of all the President has done for women at Princeton, and again how different the 21st century of experience is from the past (from which much of its ‘elitist’ label comes from). Thank you so much, again!</p>

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<p>Your posts have been SO informative. Thanks so much! But here’s a question. My son needs to choose between 5 Ivies, including Princeton. He will only be 17 when he enters college and will not even be 21 when he graduates. Will he be left out of the social scene because he can’t (…shouldn’t…) drink? Can you enter the Eating Club parties when you’re underage? My son is extremely outgoing and will hate being left out… sorry if I sound naive…</p>