<p>I think you will find that senior/alumni combination almost everywhere. Medical school admission has pushed back so early and become so time-consuming, that I think it’s more common than not almost everywhere for students to wait until after they have finished college to start the medical school application process. Intellectually, I know many students still apply when they are college seniors, but among the children of my friends who have gone to medical school recently (at great medical schools), not one applied until after graduating from college.</p>
<p>I would pick Princeton in an instant, simply because of the better location.</p>
<p>New Haven is not a very nice town. I was there for one day, and had my car broken into, and I don’t even drive a fancy car.</p>
<p>In Princeton, it is much nicer, and you can still go to NYC, and Philly.</p>
<p>That being said, my nephew just graduated Yale, and apparently loved it.</p>
<p>I agree with underachiever- if you look at PtonGrad2000’s stats on page 2, you’ll see that somewhere around 105 to 120 students/alums apply to medical school every year.</p>
<p>However, if you add up the typical pre-med majors- Anthropology, Ecology and Evolutionary Biology, Molecular Biology and Psychology- that alone is about 200 majors a year. Then you add in a number of very strong chemistry majors, a handful of engineers and a large but unknown number of shadow pre-meds who major in softer subjects like politics, sociology and Woodrow Wilson- and you’ll see the potential applicant pool to medical school could easily be at around 400 students a year. Obviously a handful of biology majors will go on to earn PhDs- but excluding them- the others would want to go to medical school if it were a viable option.</p>
<p>Career opportunities for anthropology, psych and bio grads are very limited in their respective fields excluding MD programs. </p>
<p>The evidence indicates that Princeton administrators either actively discourage the weaker candidates from applying or the students self-select out of applying, realizing that their profiles are not competitive for admission to U.S. MD programs.</p>
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<p>I find this paragraph to be full of baseless speculation and somewhat insulting to the many students of all those majors cited that have absolutely no interest in medical school and never did. It’s probably just a fraction of psychology or chemistry majors that ever plan on applying to med school, to single out a couple. Of course, there are lots of kids in all majors that consider becoming a doctor as a passing thought, just as they consider many other careers, but med school is a huge time/money commitment and it certainly isn’t for dabblers. You have to really be able to see yourself as a doctor for a lifetime before you choose that path. Many kids fortunately realize early on that the career is not always as easy or glamorous as the tv shows make it out to be. And there is some self-selection among applicants at every school because, for one thing, many people will decide they just don’t love the type of science needed enough to excel at it. However, I bet almost every capable student who goes in with a real vocation for medicine, and those who along the way suddenly find a passion for it, will be motivated to do what they need to do to get where they want to go. And I would remind you that rankings for med schools is a lot less significant than it is for law schools, as the degree is very controlled and doctors, barring special circumstances, will always have jobs available.</p>
<p>I agree with WildWood. A much better indicator would be the number of people taking organic chemistry, a pre-med requirement. Given that nearly everyone who takes second-semester orgo is either pre-med or a chem major, this should provide a much better estimate. There were 197 students in orgo II in '10 and 188 in '09, so there is no way Princeton has 400 pre-meds per year. Or, judging from the fact that physics 102 is nearly exclusively pre-meds (yes, some pre-meds take 104, but 104 is mostly engineers) and is noticeably smaller (~100 per year) I wouldn’t be surprised if the number of intended pre-meds per freshman class fell way south of 150.</p>
<p>Wildwood and FightThe Tide- I certainly didn’t intend to insult any large group of students- but I was being realistic. I’m sure you know that the economy is really bad right now- nearly 10% unemployment, 15+% including discouraged workers. Many new grads have to work retail since they do not have relevent professional experience. Hopefully, the job market gets better in the next few years, but the economy is very cyclical. You have to prepare yourself so you can get a decent paycheck when you graduate.</p>
<p>If you want to get hired today- the most important skills are accounting and computer programming. Princeton is OK on the former and world-class on the latter. If you have some experience in one of these two areas, you will be very marketable. </p>
<p>Anthro, psych and bio as undergraduate degrees don’t really prepare you for anything in a professional sense. That is why there is great appeal in medicine as a career- high pay, high status, lots of work but lifetime job security.</p>
<p>The tradeoff is that it is very difficult to get in, and admissions officers do not care at all from which undergraduate institution an applicant graduated- whether Princeton or William Paterson. They also don’t care if you majored in chemical engineering or sociology. What they do care about is that you graduated in the top 5-15% of your college class. GPA is virtually everything, conditional on your MCAT meeting the threshold.</p>
<p>400 students is, I think, a pretty good estimate. A lot of students take classes like organic chemistry II at a local school over the summer, or as a post-bac. More likely, students drop out of the pre-med track either as freshmen or sophomores when their GPAs are wrecked by Princeton science courses.</p>
<p>cmburns</p>
<p>When I went to school years and years ago, many potential pre-med students took organic chemistry and immediately decided that pre-med was not for them. It had nothing to do with grade deflation , but had everything to do with the fact that the course was really hard, people often didn’t like it and didn’t do that well in it and that the courses and course load required to be a doctor didn’t seem that appealing. I would suspect that this is the same at many schools. Many people come in vaguely interested in pre-med and then decide that it’s not for them.</p>
<p>I don’t really understand your theories about psychology and anthropology. Since neither of these majors requires the biology and chemistry courses that are prerequisites for medical school, I doubt that the vast majority of students majoring in these fields are somehow frustrated pre-med students. They are just as likely to be potential lawyers, museum executives, businesspeople, teachers, NGO officers etc. Moreover, your assumption that people at Princeton are solely concerned with professional careers when picking a major is simply wrong–in spite of the economy, students at Princeton often just choose to major in subjects that interest them.</p>
<p>It’s somewhat hard to argue with you, because you seem to be making up your own facts and then confirming that you’re correct (neat trick by the way). You are making huge and I believe unwarranted assumptions that 400 students come in interested in pre-med, and that grade deflation forces a large percentage of them to decide not to apply to medical school.</p>
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<p>I believe this is patently false. From everything I’ve read on these forums and the Studentdoctoer network, Med school admissions DO take into consideration undergraduate institution, not as a prestige factor, but as a “rigor” factor. I know some like to say that its done all by the numbers, but many others with experience say that simply is not the case. But to be sure, no med school is going to take a disproportionate number of students from any single undergraduate institution, so they will probably favor the higher gpa applicants from any given school, all else being equal (which it often times is not). But this would make no difference overall to the number of Princeton students being accepted, as they are competing against each other. The same is true of Yale or Springfield U students. Again, the average MCAT scores are very important here as a point of comparison for the rigor of institutions and the general quality of its applicants.</p>
<p>It is interesting that cmburns chooses to make up information and present the information as fact. </p>
<p>400 students is, I think, a pretty good estimate. FightTheTide presented a logical analysis showing that 400 is a very poor estimate. <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/13151353-post45.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/13151353-post45.html</a> When your arguments have no basis ignore the facts.</p>
<p>A lot of students take classes like organic chemistry II at a local school over the summer, or as a post-bac. I did not know one premed student that took courses like orgo at another university. The Princeton Health Professions Advising recommends that It is always best to take your pre-med requirements at your home institution. Medical schools prefer that you do, and some of them voice this preference quite strongly. We do not recommend that you do your pre-medical requirements over the summer. Medical schools prefer that the pre-med requirements, including Physics, be fulfilled on one’s home campus during the regular school year, in conjunction with a full courseload. Students choose to attend Princeton to get a good education; yet you argue that premeds prefer to prepare for the orgo section of MCAT by passing up the opportunity to take the highly regarded orgo course at Princeton? From HPA Our Organic Chemistry courses have always provided students with an excellent background for doing exceptionally well on the Biological Sciences portion of the MCAT, where you are tested on your knowledge of Orgo. Is it your argument is that Princeton students ignore the advice on the best way to prepare for medical school ?</p>
<p>I would not speculate whether students at other universities take science courses during summer school other universities. Cmburns, if you have any factual basis for your statement please present the basis and a link to your source.</p>
<p>More likely, students drop out of the pre-med track either as freshmen or sophomores when their GPAs are wrecked by Princeton science courses. Grade deflation has had minimal effect on the grading of science courses. The grades in science courses have changed very little in decades. </p>
<p>So your argument is that perhaps since you were born Princeton premeds have been so discouraged in their science grades that they drop out of premed? So why do so many sons and daughters of physicians apply to Princeton? By your logic Princeton must have a terrible reputation!</p>
<p>The GPA of Princeton in natural science is not good for a pre-med. Princeton pre-med students need a shelter in humanity and social science classes to raise their GPA. When that shelter is taken away, they may have to change their plans accordingly. Taking additional medical related classes, performing medical related services and doing medical research in the gap years may give one an edge over undergraduate students. When you have a 3.4 (quite marginal for medical schools) GPA, you may resort to these activities to level the application a little bit against higher GPA undergraduate applicants. To find whether deflation has an impact on pre-med application from Princeton, one can simply look into the ratio of undergraduate/alumni applicants. A lower ratio would indicate an adverse impact even if the overall applicant numbers are not changed. At this point, an average Princeton undergraduate is not competitive for medical school (at least for natural science major). You have to do many extra things to beat out the candidates from other institutions. Outstanding Princeton students, however, should do fine just as those students with similar grades from other IVY league schools, MIT, Caltech and Stanford.</p>
<p>Underachiever, from your 19 posts, I cannot see where you are coming from. Please identify yourself as an undergraduate, high school student, parent or other so we can better weigh your perspective.</p>
<p>Where do you have more information from other schools on the undergraduate/alumni ratio of med school applicants? I agree that would be interesting information. As JHS suggested, it has been increasingly common to take a gap year before med school for applicants everywhere. I would also like to see the the average gpa in natural science courses from other peer schools as I believe they would be just as relatively low to the average of humanities courses, if not more, as at Princeton.</p>
<p>I would speculate that while an “average” student from Princeton with a 3.4 gpa may not be competitive for top med schools, neither would an “average” student from Yale with a 3.6. The more selective the med school, the closer to the top of your class you have to be. But again, while they won’t have quotas, med schools probably look to take around a certain number of students from particular institutions each year and will compare these students to their classmates. They are perfectly aware of the grading policies at most schools.</p>
<p>I hate to agree with a Yale grad (JHS), but he’s right. Trying to compare whether a degree from Princeton or Yale will give you better job/career/grad school prospects is silly. The prospects for graduates out of either school are about the same - tremendous. Both school have incredibly long lists of prominent graduates, as well as countless well-to-do working joes making $500K a year or so.</p>
<p>Don’t choose between Yale and Princeton, or any other top flight school, based on perceived career prospects. Choose based on the school atmosphere, setting and climate, and how it fits you personally.</p>
<p>Princeton is in a very safe richy town. Some would consider it boring.</p>
<p>Yale is in a gritty urban setting. Some would say it’s more exciting, while others would say it’s dangerous. It’s easier to do volunteer work with the poor in New Haven, if that’s your bend (although Trenton is only 13 miles from Princeton). It’s easier to go for a bike ride in the country in Princeton (although the area towards Lambertville is becoming more built up).</p>
<p>There are a host of other differences. The least of your concerns should be whether your chances are better at getting into law school or getting a job at Goldman - those chances are probably about the same, as long as you apply yourself at the school and like it while you’re there. If you’re miserable at a great school, you’ll probably fare poorly.</p>
<p>Your biggest concern should be positioning yourself so you actually have a choice of the two schools - most kids don’t get a choice. I’d recommend applying to both schools plus a number of others, and if/when you get in, make the choice based on which school feels best to you.</p>
<p>I would say they have the same exact prestige, although, of course, it would depend on your area of study.</p>
<p>I would go to Princeton, because to me, New Haven is a pit. That being said, my brother’s son went to Yale, and loved it.</p>
<p>At least at Princeton, you don’t have to worry about the local New Haven SWAT team crashing your Yale party like they did last October…</p>
<p>^ lmaoooo.</p>