<p>In my understanding Take 5 is post-graduation so I’m not sure how that is relevant. Also a small percentage of kids who take advantage of that?</p>
<p>Like I said, I don’t have a big problem with it but would like to understand it.</p>
<p>The Take Five is not post grad. See here:</p>
<p>[Take</a> Five Scholars Program FAQ : College Center for Advising Services : University of Rochester](<a href=“Students : College Center for Advising Services : University of Rochester”>Students : College Center for Advising Services : University of Rochester)</p>
<p>The diploma is issued after the 5th year. Approx 44+ students per year take advantage of it on average.</p>
<p>Collegeboard lists 1343 freshman. 201 of these statistically won’t graduate after 6 years with 67 of those not returning freshman year. Using your 73% rate (collegeboard doesn’t give 4 year rates) 362 won’t graduate in 4 years. 362 - 201 = 161 who do end up with a diploma. 44 is a decent percentage of those (27%). </p>
<p>Some others may have taken time off for other reasons. Eons ago in my college days (not at UR) I ended up taking a year off for a medical issue, but I still graduated - just in 5 years. The college wasn’t to blame. My other half also took 5 years due to changing majors junior year (also not UR). He still graduated (and has a successful business in his major now). The college wasn’t to blame for his taking 5 years.</p>
<p>Most graduate in 4 years. Some never do. Those taking longer can have a plethora of reasons, one of which, at UR, can be Take Five.</p>
<p>Note: My numbers for Take Five are from an average of the years it’s been around and the “over 1100” have taken advantage of it. I don’t know current enrollment. It’s possible it’s more attractive now than when it first started as that seems likely, but I honestly don’t know, so an average seemed “right” for the basic stats.</p>
<p>I see what you are saying about not graduating until the Take 5 year, although honestly I don’t understand that either since my understanding is that a Take 5 year specifically has to be outside of and beyond any requirements for fulfilling a 4 year degree.</p>
<p>FYI, my 73/83 numbers were taken directly from the “Welcome” brochure received with acceptance letter a few days ago.</p>
<p>FYI, now that you mention Take 5, it sounds wonderful when you first hear about it and a great marketing selling point (extra year for free!), but it’s lot more complicated and restrictive than what you might assume from seeing the opportunity referenced as a major plus in a guidebook.</p>
<p>While Take 5 has to be above and beyond a 4 year degree, some students apply for it earlier and stretch out the classes for their 4 year degree into that 5th year in order to put some Take 5 classes earlier. As mentioned before, my guy is seriously considering applying for it. If he gets approved, he may do that. If not, he’ll stay on a 4 year graduation path. He didn’t choose UR because of the program. He’s just contemplating it now that he’s there.</p>
<p>Your stats are likely accurate if they came in the welcome packet. 
I mention where mine came from solely because I like to use the same source when comparing - and collegeboard is a super easy source for me to access. Their stats are not always up to date, but should have similar dates for each school’s data.</p>
<p>Does anyone know when we can expect the financial aid package?</p>
<p>Out of curiosity I used the Take Five link to look at the PDF of the 2012 participants. A quick count came up with 65 of them (plus or minus a couple as it was a quick scroll through count). It does seem to be higher now than the overall average just with numbers (40% of those between 4 and 6 years vs 27%).</p>
<p>I keep learning…did not know you could take Take 5 classes before year 5. I assume most don’t, though, so don’t know why in general graduation would be held up.</p>
<p>Side note: really appreciate all the info and insights provided by Creekland, WOWM, Lergnom, etc, etc. </p>
<p>Very, very good chance that UR going to be D’s choice.</p>
<p>Creekland, I am surprised that UR doesn’t account for the “Take 5 effect” if indeed your are correct that the numbers are altered in that way. I do know UR is very savvy and aware in terms of marketing/image/reputation, etc, and those grad rates are important numbers, following closely behind the middile 50 SAT numbers and retention rate.</p>
<p>The link says there are currently 117 in the program and just the 65 in their graduating year. This leads me to believe a good number start earlier.</p>
<p>While I really do believe UR is an awesome place, it’s only that for the correct fit student (as is any college really). We let our kids decide their #1 place (within cost constraints, but fortunately, my two in college both got their #1). When kids are happy where they are going they usually do well IME.</p>
<p>Again, to anyone accepted, be sure to get on the Class of 2017 Facebook page. Many questions can be answered there by current students. This can help one determine if UR is the right fit for you or not. You’ve ALL done well to be accepted! Now (and until May 1) is the figuring out the best fit time.</p>
<p>Finalchild - I really don’t know if they do or not. Perhaps they can use “could graduate in 4 years” as “did graduate in 4 years” stats. Perhaps not. I’m not sure. How do schools with co-ops (and years or semesters off for that) handle their stats?</p>
<p>Not sure about all, but Northeastern is generally considered to take 5 years, so they only publish 6 years grad rates I believe (although there is an option to graduate in 4 for those intent on doing so which means less co-ops). And I believe the 6 years rate for Northeastern was right around 73%.</p>
<p>Final Child and Creekland - thanks so much for your conversation. I am excited about D considering it seriously. She got accepted on Friday and Monday the merit came through. She had an alumni interview in the fall and the guy was her very favorite interviewer, by far.</p>
<p>^^^ Congrats to your D! It’s a slow day at school today (aside from making an Answer Key earlier this morning), so I’m able to be on more than usual. Glad the conversation was useful! ;)</p>
<p>There are also a number of joint degree programs that are designed to take more than 4 years: GEAR (with the Simon School of Business), GRADE (with the Warner School of Education), REMS (with the medical school). The students finish their bachelor’s degree but don’t actually graduate until the end of the programs. There is also a 5 year program with Eastman and Arts & Sciences in which students can receive a bachelor’s from both schools (rather than just taking classes at the other).</p>
<p>These could also skew the 4 and 6 year graduation rates.</p>
<p>I still have not heard anything about my merit scholarships, so does this indicate that I won’t receive any? If not, when is the latest day to get notification?</p>
<p>There is an important reason why I making an issue of this and after you review the analysis, I will describe the reason.</p>
<p>There is a major issue with the coffee maker example. Instead of the coffee I will assume a college that cost $50K.</p>
<p>This college has a certain amount of money that it can give for need based aid or merit aid. No federal or state aid is used is in the college fund.</p>
<p>In September 2012, analysis shows this college will give our family $20K in need based aid, no federal or state aid. The cost of this college will be $50k cost - $20k need based aid = $30K family cost. Since this is well within the range of what our family can and is willing to pay, my student can apply. The September estimate can be off and there is more than enough room to make up for normal errors in estimated cost. </p>
<p>February 2013, FAFSA submitted. February 2013 student accepted. February 2013, notified that the student received an increase in merit aid ($10K) from the college coffer. Since Merit Aid went up, the college drops the need aid. The cost to the family is still $30K. All well and good, however there is no additional money for anyone else. The college just credited one account and debited another. Neither the college or family has a net gain. No additional aid is distributed to another student because aid was just renamed.</p>
<p>Now a friend gives our family $10K in February 2013. Is it income or a scholarship? The difference is very important. If it is income, only a small portion is applied to reduce need the following year due to the Expected Family Contribution calculator.</p>
<p>If it is income, a gift or sale of stock, the Freshman year finances are the same since it was earned in 2013. The next year, the $10K is input into the Expected Family Contribution calculator and only a small portion of it changes need based aid. Assume $2K is applied to reduce need. Now the need is $8K, Merit Aid is $10K and the cost to the family is $32K instead of $30K. Assume the taxes on the $10K was $4k, that leaves the family $4K ($10k less $2K tuition increase less $4k taxes equals $4k for family) to use however they want.</p>
<p>The family can use the additional $4K to go on vacation or to lower the student loan. The family not the university decides how to spent the additional funds. College cost the family $2K more but they have an additional $4k to distribute however the family decides.</p>
<p>Now if the friends $10k was a scholarship then need based aid is removed by the $10K scholarship increase. The college still cost $30k with the combination of the friends scholarship and Merit Aid but there is no additional money for the family.</p>
<p>Do not confuse Merit Aid with income.</p>
<p>Why is it important? Because the U of R seems to be very open and responsive and they appear to be the type of university that would change if there was enough outside pressure.</p>
<p>I do not teach my child to do things because that is the way it is always done. Where would be today if the colonist said “that is the way it has always been”. Where would we be today if they didn’t fight for what was right.</p>
<p>Other colleges apply outside scholarships to student loans first and then to need based grants. The U of R could do that also.</p>
<p>I know, well then send your child to one of those schools. One of the reasons my child got accepted into the U of R is because we are a family that leads. </p>
<p>If my child earns an outside scholarship of $2K, I do not think it is unreasonable to give half that amount to someone more needy (that did nothing to earn it) and leave half for my child to lower their loan or overall cost of college.</p>
<p>For the University to determine how my child must spend what my child earned is wrong. My child earned the money and has no input on how to maximize the return on the college investment. You think that is fair. Sounds very similar to taxation without representation. The student should have input on how to apply money they earned.</p>
<p>I am willing to bet that the University of Rochester would be willing to change their policy about Merit Aid and outside scholarships if enough people complained.</p>
<p>Maybe if Merit Aid was increased $7000, have need based aid drop $6000 and drop the student loan by the additional $1000. I would prefer a 50/50 split but do something.</p>
<p>Ask the U of R to treat outside scholarships like income. Change need based aid in the percent of the Expected Family Contribution to give to other needy students and let the student that earned the scholarship apply the rest of the outside scholarship to loans, work study or overall cost.</p>
<p>If there is federal or state aid involved, I do not have a problem with outside scholarships changing that first but leave the rest for the student.</p>
<p>Lead people, do not follow.</p>
<p>changed my mind about responding!</p>
<p>Me too! I was just going to say “Wow.”</p>
<p>I can’t even get through the whole thing as it is so tedious, but I don’t appreciate the little tea-party like pep talk/challenge. If he wants to start some kind of movement and credible challenge to UR’s policies he will first need to find a style that more tidily makes his point. I’ve read all of these posts, and I still don’t get it.</p>
<p>And how did they get an increase in the first place? When was the original offer? Now the increase is 10K? I thought it was from $7500 to $14000?</p>
<p>ParentofTwins - Wow. That was a really long post. You seem pretty fixated on this whole thing. You’ve said you can afford it as it is, so now you and your kid can decide where to enroll in college. What exactly do you want here - for a bunch of strangers to hand you a kleenex and tell you that your poor kid is being mistreated because they gave him a scholarship and some financial aid, bringing the bottom line to something you can afford?</p>
<p>Do you really think UR is unique in this approach?</p>
<p>Are you really surprised? You seem very good and very interested in analyzing all the details - did you really not know this is how financial aid works?</p>
<p>I’ve been trying to give you the benefit of the doubt - that you’re just really disappointed that the finances didn’t work out and your kid is really disappointed. But you insist that they worked out just fine. You say you can easily afford what they expect you to pay. So why the big victimization complex about which fund it comes from? </p>
<p>We went into college applications knowing that some wouldn’t work out financially. It never crossed my mind to feel like some college was screwing my kid over if they didn’t give him enough free money to attend.</p>
<p>I figured I would look into what all the action is about on this thread. The solution is simple.
ParentofTwins, do not allow your child to go to any private school since they mostly do the Merit/Need aid calculations the same way. Then you won’t feel you didn’t get value for your money. </p>
<p>According to infoplease, the number of colleges and universities located in the United States are as follows.
Public 4-year institutions 629
Private 4-year institutions 1,845</p>