Become a National Merit Scholar or get high enough test scores (or successfully apply for merit scholarships), and you’d have more tuition-free options.
“There is a fine line between doing your best and killIng yourself doing APs. My kid’s high school set up such that she can naturally take 9-10 APs by the end of senior year, without killing herself”
-In addition to that, APs are highly overrated. In D’s HS, they were limited to only 6 APs, 3 in Junior and 3 in Senior year. That did not hurt their application a bit. D. actually ended up in SI position at college where she was leading Supplemental Instruction sessions in Chem. class (paid position) with up to 40 kids in her class, many of who had AP Chem. in HS. She never had AP Chem., but obviously had much better background in Chem. than any of these kids and they told her that she was very helpful to them. APs may actually be easier at some schools than regular classes at other schools.
“IF one or both of my kids dream of a Harvard medical school or Yale law (I seriously doubt it, but IF), then have we hobbled them for life by sending them to University of Arkansas? It’s not exactly UVA or Ann Arbor or UCSF. Some have told me they went to similarly low-ranked undergrad schools and really distinguished themselves, ending up in top PhD programs. But how common that is, I don’t know.”
I don’t get the CC obsession with PhD’s. From where I sit in the business world, a PhD doesn’t really mean much of anything, except perhaps in hard sciences. I certainly won’t pay any premium for a PhD.
The business world would be one of those in which having a doctorate has little meaning. In other fields, such as science or academia, it is most definitely required.
To go back to the definition of “underprivileged” being tied to ethnicity (post #87)… Our church Youth group goes on a mission trip every summer- to Appalachia. They (we- I went twice as a parent volunteer) Build and help maintain a variety of homes, community services etc (I helped install flooring in a home that had dirt floors. In the USA. In 2011) The majority of people we met/ provided service to were white- and WAY underprivileged. Participating was a life changing event for my kid - and it came up in some of her essays. No idea if adcoms were “fooled” (after all, it represented 3 weeks of her high school career- she went 3 summers) and she didn’t get into her only Ivy, but she was accepted to 3 “top 20” schools.
IMHO volunteering isn’t a sign of liberalism- it’s a sign of compassion, which is a positive human trait no matter your political beliefs
Does Appalachia not have flooring installers of their own?
Sending unskilled labor to areas of high unemployment is a popular theme for organizers of mission trips and has been for some time. Pat Conroy wrote about it it “The Water is Wide,” for example. I don’t get it either.
The most common thing I hear about those trips is that the volunteers get more out of them than the poverty stricken wretches they are helping. And that is considered a selling point. I choose my volunteering and charitable giving carefully, and these trips seldom make the cut.
I see I’m not the only cynic about the home-repair/building, stove-building trips to Appalachia and third-world countries.
Fwiw, I know a couple of kids who do these Appalachian trips every summer, and they’re both great kids… Otoh - the first thing I always think is - How many jobs are taken away from locals who otherwise would have done the work?
I am sure there are lot of people in Appalachia who can install flooring. Not a lot of Home Depots and IKEAs though. Pretty confident there are no professional floor installers in much of the region either. If you have never been in that region, it is very hard to understand how rough the people live there.
As far as volunteering, as far as I recollect, the data shows that political conservatives donate more in money and labor than political liberals. I agree that it should not be a political arena, but I do think that there is a point to be made that there is a risk that volunteering for Get Out the Vote is viewed more favorably than volunteering for the NRA. Given the well documented political leanings of Universities, I can understand how people may think that volunteering should be limited to certain “safe” organizations.
Wow. A couple points
- We did employ at least a dozen local people during the time that we were working there. basically, we paid for the materials, and served at some additional labor .
- Many of the students on the trip worked with local young people to provide enrichment/educational opportunities in music, arts etc.
- If you don’t think that the type of activity I described is a valuable service- don’t participate. But I think any activity that helps others has merit. If I had gone to Guatemala wouldn’t there have been unemployed or underemployed people there?
Again- my point was that underprivileged doesn’t have to mean not white. It was a short (competed to others) experience, but powerful and impactful to my kid. Did it influence her acceptance into colleges, who knows? But that’s not why we did it in the first place
^^ This. Really - is it so surprising that some people in Appalachia are really, really poor and are just as underprivileged (see, I didn’t need to use quotation marks) as those who live in urban slums? Maybe it’s just my upbringing (in Appalachia, go figure!) that when I saw the word underprivileged used in post 79 I thought immediately of poor, rural white populations.
As far as taking jobs away from locals…eh. That may be true. On the other hand, I know that when my church (I live in the Midwest now) goes on service trips, I’d actually prefer they go to Appalachia than to Mexico or the Dominican Republic. Church groups are going somewhere - why not here?
@fatdog11 You will find studies that show that if you go to a lower level (less prestigious) school that you may never catch up, but you will also find studies that say you can. It is quite murky and a lot of it becomes people justifying their choices.
Personally I am on the fence. Husband graduated many years ago from Carnegie Mellon and I think that his degree has always helped him get a foot in the door and satisfied several bosses who were snobs about education. He did not go to grad school, but he has been able to hold his own in jobs that are filled with Ivy MBA’s. Carnegie Mellon is well respected and since it is the strength of his real estate experience that has gotten him jobs, the combination of the two has worked. Not sure if he would have been as successful if his only degree was from Brooklyn College.
I, on the on the other hand, have done well with my English degree from Brooklyn College. First in Marketing Communication and later as a teacher who got her grad degree from another CUNY school, Hunter College. I am in a top public school district and paying for a more expensive degree from Teacher’s College in Columbia would not have helped my career in the least.
That being said, for my own children, we went with NYU because we felt it was the right fit. We also felt that the choices we had for in-state degrees were not right for our children and would not have challenged them the way NYU did. One graduated as a vocal performance major, but was able to have two minors (Business of media entertainment and technology and English lit.) NYU also allowed her to have many many internships throughout her 4 years in the city.
My other D is a studio art major there. She has great connections with working, exhibiting artists and plans to continue there to get her Masters in Art Education. Was on the fence about the need for an NYU degree in education, but again the prestige factor comes in to play if she wants to teach in NYC’s private schools. Beyond that, NYU has been an incredible experienced and has really encouraged her to challenge herself and excel.
So in the end, whether to go the prestige route for undergraduate school is a very personal decision. If your D will be challenged and happy in a less prestigious school, then consider saving the money.
@JustOneDad, even if there are flooring installers in Appalachia, who are going to pay them? You don’t expect them to work for free, do you?
I’ve always felt that the most practical and useful use of resources for missions trips is for the volunteers to stay behind and just send the money they would have used to organize the trip. Imagine if the people of Guatemala got all the money that the volunteers would have spent for airfare, food, lodging, etc.? What a monetary windfall! Then the natives can employ their own and organize the work more efficiently, instead of training high schoolers who are lifting a hammer for the first time.
I recommend that students volunteer their time and services to local organizations instead of “wasting” money going off to far flung places. Personally, that sounds like a more efficient and effective use of resources.
With respect comeonpeeps (love your username btw) I disagree with part of your point. You are absolutely correct that organizations in need would get more $$ if there were no volunteer expenses. But in some of those “far flung” parts of the world- making sure donations are administered as intended can be a real concern. Also- in my mind, the primary benefit of service for the person DOING it is getting your hands in, and seeing a different view of the world (where near to home or far away) writing a check provides none of those benefits. Personally, I feel that service is just as important for the volunteer as the recipient.
"“IF one or both of my kids dream of a Harvard medical school or Yale law (I seriously doubt it, but IF), then have we hobbled them for life by sending them to University of Arkansas?”
-I have no idea about Yale law, however, going to ANY USA Med. School is a great accomplishment. And most likely than not Harvard Med. graduate will work in the same office / clinic / hospital along the side of U of Arkansas Med. School graduate. (I do not know if it has a Med. School or not, I assume yes, as you mentioned it). Now, Harvard graduated MD may not even be a better doc. at his/her place of employment. In addition, if ANY Med. School is in plans, there is no reason under the sun (absolutely none) to spend your money on UG. Med. Schools adcoms do not care about the name of your UG. Several of D’s Medical School classmates expressed regrets that they ever attended any Ivy / Elite for UG, they had no advantage at being accepted to Med. School or while at Med. School. If one is planning on Med. School, it makes a perfect sense to attend on full tuition / full ride UG that fits a student well, and the choices are plentiful and many in fact are taking this route. Specifically, as D, had many friends with parents physicians, we are very familiar with several cases when parents made sure that kids are going for free and even attending Med. School for free at the place where physician parent is employed. Parents who know how hard to pay off the student loans and more so the huge loans after Med. School, just do not want their kids to go thru that, they perfectly aware that Med. School name will not make much difference.
I agree toowonderful that volunteering is mutually beneficial, for both the giver and the taker. I went on one mission trip and wondered if my presence there was the best value to the people in need. When the destitute are living in huts and sacrificing their best food to feed the volunteers, that didn’t sit right with me. Their first need is money to raise up their standard of living, not my company nor my lack of skill with a hammer. I am not discounting what volunteers get out of the experience, but for the most dire places, that benefit should be secondary.
Volunteers can still do great things in their local communities. There are countless inner city children in need of educational support, soup kitchens in need of servers, senior citizens in need of company, etc…
As far as making sure donations are used as intended, you just have to do your homework and trust that the organization is following through. Anyway, I think that volunteering is a great thing and everyone should do it. I just question the most efficient use of the resources.
Is there a difference in career prospects, though, for Harvard Med. vs. U of Arkansas Med. graduates who are interested in medical research rather than practicing medicine?
Can you succeed in life going to a non-prestige public? Incoming CEO of Boeing went to Iowa State. His predecessor went to Yale. His predecessor went to Tennessee Tech.
Where you go (where your parents can send you) can make a difference the first few years, but who you are and how you work and who you meet/cultivate and how driven you are make much more difference in the long run.
Caveat: In certain client-focused businesses, where your employer has to sell your credentials and show your resume to new clients over and over, your academic degrees and where you obtained them can matter for the rest of your life. Your experience and capabilities matter more, but the degrees never go away. This applies, for example, in consulting and government contracting, and I think that it also applies in law, although in that case only for the law degree, not the undergrad degree.
I work for a government contractor. My group submits a couple of dozen proposals to government agencies each year. There are three of us in the group with essentially identical skills and experience. My employer always bids me on the proposals because I have better degrees. I’m more valued than the other two because I have those degrees – even though they’re more than 30 years old, which makes the whole thing ridiculous.