Pros and Cons of Michigan

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Michigan
1

<p>Pros
-Many programs ranked in the top 10
-Strong in professional fields (fields that actually matter) such as engineering, business, and mathematics
-very strong reputation internationally
-One of America's top-ranked public schools
-Many out-of-state and international students for a public school (gives better experience)
-large endowment= more resources
-In a college city with many local eateries and great nightlife (bars, house parties, etc)
-Midwestern friendliness
-large student body means can find friends who have similar interests
-strong job recruiting in Ross and Engineering
-has a small feel even though it has a huge student body
-very good deal for in-state students: half of what out-of-state kids pay
-many modern, beautiful renovated dorms with nice amenities such as AC
-strong football Saturday tradition with amazing pregames
-school lets you transfer credits for almost all APs (so easy to graduate early if come in with many credits)
-offers many learning communities (MLCs) for students with similar interests freshman year
-strong Greek life without dominating the school
-lenient weed policies as long as you are off campus</p>

<p>Cons
-large class sizes mean less personalized attention
-long and cold winters
-very high tuition for out-of-state students (approaching $55,000)
-increase in tuition once you gain junior standing for engineering
-few scholarships/aid available, especially for out of state students, because endowment is spread out over large student body
-somewhat high acceptance rate gives it a slightly lower reputation than it should
-recruits heavily from a few high schools in the Detroit metro area = cliques from high school even before start of college
-school charges heavily for everything from football season tickets ($300 this year!) to meal plans (13$ per meal!)
-frequent housing shortages because one dorm is closed each year for renovation = many people stay off campus after freshman year
-appartments off campus can be very expensive
-upper-middle class students have the most power because of the high out-of-state tuition
-north campus is very isolated and can be depressing
-since the school is so big and the student body is intelligent, you need to fight for every opportunity. You need to apply for everything, even participating in clubs sometimes
-long commute to class since the dorms are built around the classes, especially if you are on north campus and not in engineering or music
-cops really look out for underage drinkers </p>

<p>Feel free to add more and/or agree/disagree with the points I have made</p>

2

<p>Con: Lack of competitiveness amongst student body, partly because of the culture and partly because of the caliber of the general student body. I am a firm believer of competition breeding the best. I feel that even my high school was a lot more competitive than Michigan.</p>

3

<p>Pro: Professors are generally good at what they do, especially a lot of the engineering profs. </p>

<p>However, the ones who teach classes related to the financial markets/derivatives are horrible. They are so out of touch with reality and what actually goes on in the market. </p>

<p>For example, a professor tried to argue with me that CPI swaps is a very common derivative. If he had worked in the financial markets, he would know that while CPI swaps exist, they are very rare because they are so hard to hedge.
Another professor tried to argue with me about going long volatility, without knowing the dynamics of it. Anyone who has a bit of real world experience would know that rolling a long vol position is unsustainable. </p>

<p>But other than my frustrations with finance professors, I have generally been satisfied with the quality of the faculty.</p>

4

<p>I disagree on several of your “cons,” bluedevils fan.</p>

<p>Re: off-campus housing: most upperclassmen live off campus by choice, not because there’s not enough dorm space. Space issues may now be a contributing factor, but from time immemorial most upperclassmen have elected to live in houses, apartments, co-ops, Greek houses, or whatever. It’s a time-honored tradition, and a big part of what makes Ann Arbor what it is.</p>

<p>Re: large class sizes. This depends a lot on your major. If you’re in a very popular major (psych, poli sci, standard pre-med sequence) you may have big classes all the way through. But there are dozens of less popular majors with outstanding faculties and relatively few students, resulting in small upper-level classes. In some fields, like philosophy, even the intro classes tend to be quite small. So it’s a mixed bag. Also notice that Michigan has fewer big (>50) classes than Cornell: 17% at Michigan, 18% at Cornell, and a number of other major private research universities are not too far off, e.g., 13% at RPI, 12% at Stanford, 11% at Princeton and MIT. And Michigan has fewer big classes than many other leading public universities, e.g., Wisconsin 20%, Illinois 20%, UCLA 22%, Georgia Tech 23%, Texas 26%, UCSD 35%.</p>

5

<p>Cons
-large class sizes mean less personalized attention</p>

<p>If you need your hand held then yes, not the best university for you I guess. There are plenty of opportunities with GSI’s and Profs through office hours and other though</p>

<p>-long and cold winters</p>

<p>Yep, its Michigan. Not too much snow in AA though</p>

<p>-very high tuition for out-of-state students (approaching $55,000)</p>

<p>Yeah, that does suck</p>

<p>-increase in tuition once you gain junior standing for engineering</p>

<p>That too</p>

<p>-few scholarships/aid available, especially for out of state students, because endowment is spread out over large student body</p>

<p>Yeah, getting any kind of money or aid as an OOS student sucks</p>

<p>-somewhat high acceptance rate gives it a slightly lower reputation than it should</p>

<p>Probably. But at least its going down. That has a lot to do with keeping it mostly IS students</p>

<p>-recruits heavily from a few high schools in the Detroit metro area = cliques from high school even before start of college</p>

<p>Ehhh, maybe at the very beginning of freshman year, but there are enough people there that are completely new that this shouldn’t be a big deal</p>

<p>-school charges heavily for everything from football season tickets ($300 this year!) to meal plans (13$ per meal!)</p>

<p>I’m not sure how that compares to other school’s meal plans (or if you number is even right). Tickets are a lot, but at least its a very high quality product. Except in 2014…I’m happy I’ll be graduated by then</p>

<p>-frequent housing shortages because one dorm is closed each year for renovation = many people stay off campus after freshman year</p>

<p>There are shortages? I didn’t know that. Most students after freshman year aren’t off campus, they just aren’t in campus housing. And that is by choice</p>

<p>-appartments off campus can be very expensive</p>

<p>Its a college town. Its Ann Arbor. Nothing new</p>

<p>-upper-middle class students have the most power because of the high out-of-state tuition</p>

<p>Power? What power? I’ve never felt like any student has power over me. Are you talking about the student govt? No one cares about them and hardly anyone votes.</p>

<p>-north campus is very isolated and can be depressing</p>

<p>I’ve never been depressed on North. Its not like you’re an hour away from Central…
Plus you probably won’t be living there after your freshman year</p>

<p>-since the school is so big and the student body is intelligent, you need to fight for every opportunity. You need to apply for everything, even participating in clubs sometimes</p>

<p>Ok? Any club that you need to apply to is something “prestigious”, so of course they weed out people</p>

<p>-long commute to class since the dorms are built around the classes, especially if you are on north campus and not in engineering or music</p>

<p>Might be. But again, you probably won’t be on north after your freshman year if you don’t want to be</p>

<p>-cops really look out for underage drinkers </p>

<p>good?</p>

6

<p>-cops really look out for underage drinkers</p>

<p>I would argue this is not true, AAPD are very lenient with underage drinkers. It’s very rare for someone who goes out regularly to ever get MIPed. Many other universities are much worse.</p>

7

<p>Its pretty ridiculous that U of M charges $300 for season football tickets. I know that all athletic events at Duke and Wake Forest for example (Basketball, Football, Lacrosse, etc.) are free and open to all students. The worst that could happen is you have to wait a couple of extra hours in line for the big basketball games.</p>

<p>Is that just a “public school” thing to charge students to attend athletic events? I wonder if other Big 10 schools have the same policy…</p>

8

<p>The biggest cons are OOS tuition, lack of financial aid and one of the few schools where tuition increases the third and fourth years. I wonder why they raise tuition the last two years? Oh wait, never mind, I just figured it out: for the same reason dogs lick their b^&*@, because they CAN…</p>

9

<p>Who the hell wants to go see a Duke football game? Of course tickets are free. It’ll help try to fill the stands. </p>

<p>The Michigan football program is one of the most storied programs in the country. Its producing top quality product. They’ve sold out every game for decades. They aren’t going to just give those tickets out with so much money to be made. </p>

<p>Yeah, there is still an obligation to the student body. And yeah, with the price hike and especially the new admissions policy they are starting to shake that obligation. But at least we are still getting these tickets at a subsidized price. I mean, as an OOS student we’re already paying a ton in tuition… so its the least they could do.</p>

<p>But like I said, anyone that’s a Sr in 2014, I’d be ****ed. Worst home schedule in history AND you have general admissions</p>

10

<p>

Hah</p>

<p>AAPD is one of the most relaxed police departments in the country regarding underage drinking. You have to do something truly stupid to get an MIP.</p>

11

<p>

Huh? I agree that Michigan is strong in professional fields, but the parenthetical statement is disconcerting.</p>

12

<p>

</p>

<p>No, the worst that could happen is that through tuition and fees, all students end up subsidizing those “free” seats for students who are into intercollegiate sports, whether or not the subsidizers are into intercollegiate sports themselves.</p>

<p>We don’t get a detailed look at Duke’s athletic department spending because as a private university it doesn’t need to disclose these things, but the general pattern in the ACC is that athletic departments are heavily subsidized by the central administration: Virginia $13.1 million/year, North Carolina $9.1 million, Florida State $7.8 million, VaTech $7.8 million, Georgia Tech $6.9 million, NC State $5.4 million, Clemson $5.3 million.</p>

<p>These subsidies represent funds from the university’s general fund that are not going to educational services–in effect, a tax on the student body generally.</p>

<p>A basic principle of economics is that there’s no such thing as a free lunch. The same principle applies to tickets to sporting events. The question then becomes whether it’s fairer to charge the students who are actually attending the event, or to charge the student body generally to make the event “free” to those who care to attend.</p>

13

<p>

This makes sense in theory but I am struggling to find out where Duke for instance is implementing these “hidden fees” to compensate for lost athletic ticket revenue.</p>

<p>Here’s a rundown on all fees assessed to undergrads at Duke:
[Duke</a> Financial Services - Bursar - Explanation of Fees](<a href=“http://finance.duke.edu/bursar/TuitionFees/Fees.php]Duke”>Explanation of Fees | BURSAR | Duke)</p>

<p>You"ll find pretty standard fees associated with Dining, Residential Programming, and funding Student Organizations but nothing related to “Events”.</p>

<p>I suppose it could be built into the tuition structure at the university but at that point, its basically a “sunk cost”. Paying $700 to attend every home football game, basketball game, and hockey game seems a bit excessive…</p>

14

<p>

There is a charge for the most popular sports (men’s FB, BB, ice hockey) at Minnesota but it is less than $100 for season tickets in any given sport. Of course, there probably aren’t as many students willing to pay $300 to watch Golden Gopher football :wink:

<a href=“http://www.math.duke.edu/~hain/athletics/acad_council_dec_2010.pdf[/url]”>http://www.math.duke.edu/~hain/athletics/acad_council_dec_2010.pdf&lt;/a&gt; (see pg 7)</p>

<p>[The</a> well-endowned athlete | The Chronicle](<a href=“http://www.dukechronicle.com/articles/2011/03/22/well-endowned-athlete]The”>http://www.dukechronicle.com/articles/2011/03/22/well-endowned-athlete)

</p>

15

<p>

</p>

<p>Not true as far as I can see, but, in any event, I guess I can’t see the cops doing their jobs as a bad thing.</p>

16

<p>I will break down the cons as listed by the OP:</p>

<p>-large class sizes mean less personalized attention</p>

<p>Much is made of class size. The main difference between Michigan and smaller research universities (with 6,000 or more undergraduate students) is that intro-level classes with typically enroll 200-500 students as opposed to 100-300. At the intermediate and advanced levels, class sizes will generally be the same at most major research universities, small or large. As such, I do not think Michigan is significantly more “impersonal” that the majority of its peers, private or public.</p>

<p>-long and cold winters</p>

<p>Can’t argue with that. But the same can ve said of many of America’s top universities, including Brown, Cornell, Dartmouth, Harvard, MIT, Northwestern, University of Chicago, University of Notre Dame and University of Wisconsin-Madison.</p>

<p>-very high tuition for out-of-state students (approaching $55,000)</p>

<p>Is this a con in relative terms or in absolute terms? While I agree that $55k is a lot of money, relative to its peers, Michigan is a pretty good value. 80% of America’s top 30 universities are more expensive than Michigan. The only top 30 universities that I can think of that are cheaper than Michigan are UNC and UVa. Cal, Rice and UCLA cost roughly the same. The remaining 24 top 30 universities are more expensive.</p>

<p>-increase in tuition once you gain junior standing for engineering</p>

<p>That is a con indeed. Michigan should not distinguish and charge the same tuition for all students.</p>

<p>-few scholarships/aid available, especially for out of state students, because endowment is spread out over large student body</p>

<p>Michigan is one of just a handful of America’s truly elite universities that actually offers scholarships. This should be a pro, not a con. The fact that some universities can merit scholarships while schools like Cornell, Northwestern, Penn etc… offer no scholarships whatsoever, is definitely a plus. Michigan is also relatively generous with financial aid for in-state students. I agree that Michigan should improve its financial aid offerings for OOS and international students. I think this will be addressed in the near future.</p>

<p>-somewhat high acceptance rate gives it a slightly lower reputation than it should</p>

<p>Yes and no. Among high school students, this is definitely true. Michigan is considered less of a prize, and therefore, less desirable. However, in academe or professional circles, Michigan’s higher acceptance rate does not impact its reputation. Also, Michigan’s acceptance rate will drop to 25% or even lower in the next 2-3 years.</p>

<p>-recruits heavily from a few high schools in the Detroit metro area = cliques from high school even before start of college</p>

<p>While cliques form at most universities (even the likes of Harvard have huge cohors of 10-15 students annually from select private high schools such as Andover and Exeter etc…), the majority of students come to Michigan with few friends and are eager to make new ones.</p>

<p>-school charges heavily for everything from football season tickets ($300 this year!) to meal plans (13$ per meal!)</p>

<p>Agreed.</p>

<p>-frequent housing shortages because one dorm is closed each year for renovation = many people stay off campus after freshman year</p>

<p>There is no real shortage of housing, but there is shortage of desirable housing.</p>

<p>-appartments off campus can be very expensive</p>

<p>Sure, but still reasonable compared to cities such as Boston, DC or NYC.</p>

<p>-upper-middle class students have the most power because of the high out-of-state tuition</p>

<p>I am not sure what you mean here. </p>

<p>-north campus is very isolated and can be depressing</p>

<p>North Campus is neither “very isolated”, nor is it depressing. I would use the word “inconvenient” or “annoying”, but no more.</p>

<p>-since the school is so big and the student body is intelligent, you need to fight for every opportunity. You need to apply for everything, even participating in clubs sometimes</p>

<p>Although there is often a formal process involved, it is hardly exclusive. The majority of students who wish to participare in most opportunities usually get what they want, especially if they plan well.</p>

<p>-long commute to class since the dorms are built around the classes, especially if you are on north campus and not in engineering or music</p>

<p>Agreed. Michigan’s campus is large. But good planning can easily take care of it.</p>

<p>-cops really look out for underage drinkers </p>

<p>Isn’t this the case in general, not just at Michigan?</p>

17

<p>

</p>

<p>Duke undergraduate tuition & fees: $45,620.
Michigan non-resident undergrad tuition & fees: $39,144 (fr. & soph.); $41,870 (jr. & sr.)</p>

<p>No need to look any further. Duke’s not going to name it, for gosh sakes; they’re going to hide the cost of subsidizing “free” student tickets to athletic events by rolling it into tuition. And yes, you can dismiss it by calling it a “sunk cost,” but basically that’s saying you’re going to passively accept any cost they force-feed you. </p>

<p>I’d say Dookies who aren’t interested in intercollegiate sports are being screwed big-time by being forced to subsidize those who are getting “free” tickets. Frankly, even as a football fan, I’d rather pay the $300 for football season tickets than the extra $4K to $6K tuition. And if I were not a football fan, I’d be really, really pi**ed to pay the extra tuition so the students who were into football could go for “free.” </p>

<p>Of course, not all of the tuition differential goes to athletic support, but I’d wager that central budget support to Duke athletics is a non-trivial part of the equation. Michigan is much more transparent about it. The athletic department pays its own way. Part of that is that students who want to attend football games pay for that privilege, without cross-subsidies from the rest of the student body. I would count that as a virtue of Michigan, not a detriment.</p>

18

<p>I’d much rather have the choice to pay for football tickets to the most winningest team in CFB history than be forced to pay for Duke football tickets … ugh</p>

19

<p>"-increase in tuition once you gain junior standing for engineering</p>

<p>That is a con indeed. Michigan should not distinguish and charge the same tuition for all students."</p>

<p>Watch what you wish for Alexandre. If UMich does this, the Frosh will likely be charged more, as opposed to the Jun/Sr being charged less :0</p>

20

<p>^^^^I was thinking the same thing!</p>