https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator_cha.asp (figure 4) suggests that most (78%) college students choose public. About 70% of high school graduates go to college (not necessarily 4 year college), so even if all of those choosing private were in the upper half (unlikely), only 44% of them would be choosing private.
@ucbalumnus I was answering the OPs original question. My answer wasn’t representing national data in all schools. He asked a specific question. In summary, to me it seemed to be why do the best students at his high performing type school eschew the state flagship, in a nutshell.
Going back to the OP’s question of why the privates seem more special to many HS applicants, I can say that at my kids’ HS, being the one who shows up in April with the sweatshirt that says makes you a standout amongst the hordes that are heading to the all-too-familiar public institutions that, even if outstanding, just seem so ordinary to them. However, the great majority who do get accepted by the elite privates, in the end, wind up choosing the in-state UCs. This goes for the families with parents who are doctors, lawyers, etc. Some do attend a mid-level private if they get a free ride, even though their parents can afford a much higher rated UC. So in my experience, it seems to come down to value for the dollar for the vast majority of families, regardless of what they can afford.
My kids were offered very generous merit awards from OOS publics. But with 60-80% acceptance rates, I didn’t feel comfortable pushing them into these schools after they’ve put in so much hard work over the years. On the other end of the spectrum, one of my kids got into Vanderbilt, along with our state flagship. Sure, Vanderbilt’s classes are smaller, the walkways are uncrowded, and the facilities nicer, but they decided to give her no aid. It would cost 160k more to send her to Vanderbilt over the 4 years than the flagship UC, and that’s with zero COA increases. With greater travel costs and increases certain to outpace UC, the difference would likely be higher. In my opinion, the niceties that a smaller private could offer just didn’t amount to 160k for a single student. If the academics were far apart, I would have given it much more thought.
Agree with privatebanker. Elite colleges with elite amount of money have done an elite job of making elite students (and sometimes their parents) that they are failures (in other words, not elite people which they think they are but are not) unless they get into one of these, even if they don’t end up attending one.
IMO the best result is to get into an elite college, and if you can attend there free with financial aid and grants, by all means go there just to experience what the elite education hoopla is all about; and if you have to full pay at an elite private college, decline the elite college and just go to Honors state college for free on merit money. When everything is said and done, it’s hard to lose by going to college for free. This is my most honest post so far. Lol
OP, here are a few examples of what I may be asking.
I was recently at Duke and they have “DukeEngage” which is a free summer program where students go all over the world to help with special community projects. For example, one project involved undergrad students designing and implementing a long-term water access solution for communities in Madagascar. Another was engineering students designing a pedestrian bridge for better access between two communities in Bolivia.
In addition, our tour guide explained that she wanted to take Farsi (Persian) for her foreign language requirement and even though only 3 students signed up for the class they still assigned a professor to teach this very small class. She said it was like having personal one-on-one attention.
Lastly, she is also taking a Journalism class where her professor, who works for the NY Times, flies down every Thursday from NYC to teach her class.
I don’t know if these experiences are unique to private college undergrad students but it sure isn’t the experience I had in college attending a second tier UC.
Maybe having a $9 billion endowment at an elite college gives students a deeper and richer college experience?
Many times different issues get conflated on these threads. Three things come to mind.
All parents/students should limit their consideration to colleges where the student will be able to graduate with zero (or near zero debt). Unfortunately this in not the case in many instances. I was watching a recent town hall broadcast when a freshman year student (at a small NE private school I think) prefaced her question with the fact that as a freshman she was already carrying $25k in debt. That just sounds insane.
Only when financials are understood should students/parents look to the college experience that they want. Bonus points for students that are opinionated as to what they want to study because that allows for more detailed head-to-head comparisons. When considering colleges, quality programs count. Many say undergraduate education doesn’t matter. If that’s the case just go to your local community college or skip college all together (many successful people never graduated from college, right?). But if you do want to attend college try to find the best program that fits your style for the money you have available.
When you are researching colleges be aware that not all schools are created equal. That just makes sense. Much of that has to do with money, history, and maybe some luck. But given two schools (that you can afford), an area of study, and a little time, it’s pretty easy to get the info you need to quantitatively and qualitative rank the schools.
@socaldad2002, yes, these examples you give are things that private schools can do if they wish. They make all their own decisions rather than have to get state-level approval like state universities must. It’s the concierge version of college, and it better be for the price they’re asking. Of course if you’re lucky enough that they’re willing to throw lots of money at you then the choice becomes easier, as long as it meets your other requirements.
I just think that a family has to make the decision as to whether it’s worth the tremendous cost difference, and I continuously see that families don’t think it is, even when they have the ability to pay. Yesterday my kid came home and told us a familiar story that one of their fellow students had gotten accepted to Carnegie Mellon, rated number #1 for her major of choice–computer science–but decided instead to go to Cal Poly San Luis Obispo because of the cost differential. We do here of the odd case of someone going to Columbia, Yale, or Stanford and the like but they are rare, even though we have a top-rated HS in an affluent community.
@socaldad2002 I think it does depend on the specific public school and specific private. NYT’s David Brooks used to teach a weekly class at public William and Mary. And from what I’ve heard from current students, W&M will still have three-student upper level classes even if no one else signs up.
Well, what are the top schools in this country? A quick answer is HPYMC. Not a public in there. It’s a bit unusual that the top universities in a country are all private.
So if you have the money, you go for the best. Why not? Especially in education. There are exceptions. The UCs, UVA , UT-Austin are string contenders over most private schools.
IMO identifying top schools in the country is interesting, but not necessarily as valuable as identifying top programs in the country. Here’s what I mean. When I think of top schools, I think of schools that have breadth and depth with undergrad, grad, law schools, medical schools, and more. Typically, the schools I think of have a history of contributions to many academic fields. However, it may be better to look at top programs, because while I do believe, for example, that Harvard is a top school I do not think all of its programs are the top in the country.
About half of the new university based members of the National Academy of Science are at publics.
@socaldad2002, one thing to keep in mind is that you can’t compare your time a generation ago at a public with a private now. Again, more than 1 variable at work.
For instance, right now, everyone in the UT-Dallas business honors program can go on a mostly-free weeks-long educational trip abroad every year (you have to pay for airfare to get to and from the destination but then the honors program pays for the cost of everything else; and UTD tends to give merit scholarships and you pay in-state even if you get a small one).
Not all honors college have such amazing perks but many do have some nice ones.
Furthermore, a large uni is more likely to offer Farsi simply because it has more departments.
To build on what I said above, if the price differential is large enough, you can use the savings to fund multiple study-abroad or work-abroad projects, get your own private Farsi tutor, and probably even arrange for a journalist at a large newspaper (or who use to work at one) to give you your own private class and still come out ahead financially.
@cptofthehouse Once again, you are conflating “prestige” with “quality education”. The entire reason that you are claiming that HPYMS are “top colleges” is that they are wealthy. That is why they are ranked the highest, and the difficulty in being accepted to them is directly related those rankings. Conflating wealth and prestige seems to be pervasive here on CC.
@socaldad2002 You, on the other hand, are conflating “bells and whistles” with “quality education”. Heavily curated, watered down foreign trips, such as those offered by Duke, are similar go the vacations at fancy resorts to which rich people take their kids. Are also you going to claim that the kids of the wealthy have richer and more meaningful childhoods? Talk about Privilege!
The entire ideology of those “DukeEngage” programs is actually pretty awful. I am sorry, but a bunch of wealthy American colleges student are not qualified to figure out the entire social and cultural set of issues that go into implementing these solutions. In fact, the entire idea absolutely REEKS of privilege, paternalism, and borderline racism. Seriously, what the program is saying is that “At Duke we are SO superior to you benighted peoples, that our 18 year old kids, who have never left their bubble of wealth and privilege, can solve your most difficult issues in 3 hours a week, over 13 weeks”. Gag.
Time and again, “prestige” is being used as shorthand for “schools which the kids of the rich and powerful attend”.
well said @MWolf well said. your racism comment is certainly thought provoking.
@MWolf well said and I agree.
It always comes down to value and fit. My son attends Michigan (in-state) in engineering. Great experience, outstanding facilities, $20K/yr tuition, 10K living expenses, $30K total. The private alternatives - of which only a handful are ranked better - were over $65K. His cousin attended Caltech. $55K tuition + 15K expenses. His alternatives were equally expensive because his home state (NY) doesn’t have an engineering school of the same caliber. Public options were not much cheaper either.
The experience at Caltech was a lot more personal with outstanding facilities and professors. Not so much on the social side, including exposure to other students in the humanities and sports. At the same time, there is something to be said for size. My son at Michigan is heavily involved with his honor society and the symposiums and conferences that they put on. It’s a lot harder to do that when your school has only a small number of students.
Both kids attended the top private HS in their region. Most of the kids in the NY HS went private. Most of the kids in the Michigan HS went public. The vast majority of students at both HS could have afforded either.
@theloniusmonk @natty1988 Thank you both for your kind words.
@TooOld4School “It always comes down to value and fit”. Yep, though, because I got into alliterations when my kid was young and never got over them, I prefer: “Fit and Finances”.
I didn’t really pay anything for D’s undergrad since it was paid for by merit scholarships. She enrolled in an instate public honors program where she completed her engineering degree and premed reqts. Our instate public schools are amazing and they have very qualified smart students. She had priority registration and an honors program advisor that personally worked with her all four years. She graduated college with honors and took a job to save some money for medical school. (she is applying this summer) Her classes especially junior and senior year were no more than 25 students. (this is a university with a population of 30,000) Her teachers knew her personally by name. (not a number) She graduated debt free. The student body was very diverse and they too had study abroad trips and trips like those mentioned at Duke.The first week at her job she had orientation. Most of her group of incoming graduates went to top universities. They are coming from families with money who were paying their graduates rents because DC is expensive. The point is all these students were working in the same capacity at this company that supposedly recruited at top tier schools. D loves her job and in less than a year she received a promotion. Her boss is a Duke graduate. D’s success was based on performance.
She made best of her situation. I could not afford to send her to an expensive private school. Now when she attends med school whatever I saved from undergrad will pay for medical school. A lot depends on the student. In her honors program she has students with perfect grades and close to perfect scores. It’s a matter of making use of the facilities that your college offers. Her classmate was recognized as a Goldwater Scholar and is now taking part in a fully funded PHD program in BME at John’s Hopkins.
So I will say that if your child is dedicated and focused on their goals they will find their path to success. As I reflect back I have no regrets. My D is not an outgoing person but she found her way in a big public school.
It’s true that most students go public. That’s simply numbers. But why do so many of us buy into the notion that privates are actually better? To what degree is it about: Status? Facilities? Personal attention? Relationships? Class stratification?
We are indeed facing an education crisis, and it’s marked by tremendous debt, application cheating, subterfuge, and unhappiness. Could national attention to improving facilities, personal attention, and relationships at public universities address some of that? Yes. But it won’t address the real drivers which are (imo) status and class stratification.