Pros and Cons of Public Flagship vs Private Colleges

My daughter declared a major at the end of sophomore year…and then she changed it. None of this was ever a problem. Every school is different.

I think you could be “nurtured” at big schools as well as small schools. My daughter’s prof kept a close eye on her during her entire first year. D joined an organization on campus who also looked out for one another and these kids became her best friends. D received more personalized attention than her sister, who attended a school with 5,000 kids ( she wanted a smaller school). Is this a function of the school…the student…a little of both?

@homerdog I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone on CC say everyone should just find an honors program at a state flagship. Yes, there are some who do not think any college is worth $300k or that only such expensive private schools will give a high quality education and outcome. I am one of those people. But that’s just my personal opinion. Every parent has to decide what makes sense for their child. Why the fact that some people don’t exalt $300k private school college educations should trigger you is baffling to me. Be secure in your choices and decisions.

I also think that some people do not recognize the student’s responsibility in achieving success. Nothing will be handed to them. I have/had several family members at LACs, and I have other family members at larger universities. The one student who comes to mind just graduated from a top ranked LAC…she had no internships ( again, nobody knocks on your door…you have to make an effort) and she is home right now “figuring it out,” according to her mother.

Even with our hard work and best intentions, it’s not easy …and things happen.

@itsgettingreal17 We are secure in our choice. Not sure why anyone would think we are not.

@lucyvanpelt As for a school not having someone’s major, I suppose that could happen but, in S19’s case, he’s not thinking his major is all that important. He’s probably wants something quantitative - math, physics, maybe econ - and then he may want to have a second major or just explore all kinds of subjects instead. I honestly don’t even know what kind of major he would want that Bowdoin wouldn’t have. If he likes physics and decides he wants engineering, he will go to grad school. Other than that, I think they will have what he wants for undergrad. He’s a liberal arts guy and not looking for any job-specific major like accounting or nursing.

@cypresspat I understand if a student has specific interests and wants to be at a school where professors are doing that work. I guess I’d just want to be sure that the student would be able to take advantage of that perk. Just because work is being done (really at any school) that is of interest to a student, I don’t think that means they can have the chance to be involved in it.

Honestly, S19 is a very specific type of kid and knew what he wanted. The only “bigger” school he applied to was W&M and that’s not really a big state school and still kind of like an LAC. Everything on his check list pointed to LAC. It was just a matter of getting in and then choosing.

We will evaluate separately for each child, but for now, our default position is that our in-state public universities are the only publics that should be on our kids’ lists (with the possible exception of big merit schools like alabama or maybe WUE if they really want to get further away). For a full-pay large price tag, we prefer privates, the reasons for which are mentioned above, impacted majors, getting classes, size, and overall fit.

I’ve noticed that I have a thing for medium-size private universities. Maybe I should make a tab in my spreadsheet workbook with just those.

@homerdog Your use of the word “trigger” indicates otherwise, imo. Being triggered by another person’s opinion that you don’t agree with makes no sense. Perhaps just a poor choice of words.

@cypresspat I appreciated your very eloquent posts and I also think that your youngest child is amazing in his clear thinking. He seems to be the antithesis of what one reads on the “stupid reasons why your kid won’t look at a college” which range from dislike for the mascot to too many trees on campus. Most kids are not that rational in their decision making process when thinking about college. It is clear why you would like him to shoot for the moon and why you feel some ambivalence about his feet being firmly planted on the ground.

Back in the day, I found myself turning down the elite New England LAC of my dreams for the honors program at the state flagship because that is what my parents were willing and able to fund. In my case it turned out well. I got to know my professors (some of whom were later snatched up by top 20 schools), met intellectually interesting fellow students, and was well-prepared to gain admission and funding from T-20 grad schools. I remained close with many of those students, and some of the professors as well. However, not all public universities are the same and not all honors programs are structured similarly. I have two “life of the mind” kids and our in-state options would not be optimal intellectually for them, admirable as those institutions are. Good faculty can be found anywhere and most are eager to work with motivated undergraduates. The potential downsides - impacted majors, large classes, opaque bureaucracies, fewer intellectually motivated and academically prepared peers, etc. have been summarized above.

I recently found myself comparing my experience with that of my eldest child, who attends a LAC and is getting everything you’d hope out of such an experience. I think there is something unique about a residential college experience with respect to forging those close bonds with classmates and with an institution. Additionally, there is almost no way that a student would fall through the cracks or be able to pass classes without showing up. Professors notice diligent students and steer them to academic and professional opportunities of all sorts.

It sounds like your son has done his due diligence - I am wondering if he has looked at mid-sized R 1 privates as compromises between the qualities that you prize from your LAC experience and the research outcomes that he is targeting. I’m thinking places like Case Western (which is better than most in its category for socioeconomic diversity), Rice, Emory, etc. It sounds like he has a specific major in mind so these may not be suitable. He might also want to look to LACs in consortia, especially those that have a higher than usual % of Pell-eligible students to counterbalance the perceived social elitism that is unpalatable to him.

Congratulations for raising such a sensible, kind young man. He sounds a bit like my youngest in his inclinations and approach to the world, but happily, I’m a couple of years from having to navigate this process for a second time.

@evergreen5 I like mid-sized privates as well but they aren’t all the same. Some are better with undergrads than others. Some have better advising. And they are all hard to get into!

@homerdog @privatebanker We also were in the position and chose to be full pay at a top private for many of the same reasons. We don’t love paying 70k+ per yr, but who would? We do see the many benefits for our kid and that’s what we cared about. We aren’t against the state schools or anything like that. My brothers and I were all products of state flagships and have done quite well in life. My son would do quite well at the state flagship as well, but we can’t imagine a better situation for him than where he is.

People make choices for all kinds of reasons. I won’t belittle the comparison to that of a car purchase or any other commodity. Most of those lose value. A college education, hopefully, gains value over time. I could go out and purchase a luxury car anytime I want, but I don’t (probably wouldn’t be able to pay for college if I did as I’m a no debt guy). I’d be the guy with the car in the parking lot that said “wash me” and the trunk would be dinged by the golf clubs that permanently reside inside. But it’s great for the next guy / gal. Paying for something that is important to me is the only reason I need.

If you are able to make that choice, that’s a great thing (regardless of the choice - as you have options). It’s also great there are many lower cost schools offering fantastic opportunities to our young people. Many don’t have the choice. Going in to debt is a serious thing and shouldn’t be taken lightly. As a financial advisor to the back room thru the Board Room, I’ve seen the tragedy created by unnecessary debt, over aggressive investors, unrealistic people in general.

The CC community tends to take this topic quite personally, as if to say there is a right or wrong decision. Preposterous, as no one knows your situation. I make the assumption that everyone does the best things they can for their kids. Who cares if that’s not good enough or too good for someone else. I really don’t get the turf war!

@twogirls Yes, it’s up to the student. Absolutely.

Believe me, S19 will not be allowed to flounder around and left to try to figure it out. We’ve made it clear that internships are a must and important both for helping him figure out what he likes in terms of a job after school and in terms of building a resume. He’s not going to school to lead a life of the mind. There’s an end goal even if it’s not a clear one yet. He’s 100% on board with that. He’s already made a Linked In account and has been researching alumni who might help him with a summer job after freshman year.

In the case of a lot of LAC students, they can use their degrees to work in many different fields. We see his education as one thing and his job search as another. He will be working on both for the next four years.

@itsgettingreal17 As for the word “trigger”, maybe it was an exaggeration. I’ve had parents in our town flat out say to my face that they don’t understand why we would pay so much when S19 could end up with the same job as their students who will be business majors at BigTen schools. So that does trigger a response in me - but I don’t say it out loud! For us, it’s not all about the end game.

@homerdog I know what you mean about the highly-selective ones. Looking further down the continuum of selectivity, Villanova, Santa Clara (moving over this Sept to national in us news), U Miami, Lehigh. WPI, GW, Fordham. I’m also eyeing USD, TCU, Loyola Chicago… Of course each has its own character. Ultimately, price and quality of academic program will also need to be weighed against the flagship and it could go either way, depending on the likely major, vs fit. My understanding of recruiting prospects at any of these schools for some specific majors (e.g. engineering vs CS vs science/math in arts & sciences) is woefully insufficient. Watch them surprise me with some other major entirely! (just trying to channel my nervous energy here while I await junior year)

Sometimes kids flounder, despite our best efforts. Stuff happens. The college years are often when issues emerge. Sometimes high performing kids burn out by the time their junior or senior year approaches. I have seen high performing kids…at several different schools…take a semester off…and then return and eventually graduate. Very often we, as parents, are caught by surprise.

As far as an end goal, my daughter didn’t have one until she was well into her senior year. That’s when her light bulb moment clicked…and actually stayed on. Her experiences up to that point helped her…a lot. She built a great resume despite not knowing exactly where it was going…

@evergreen5 Can’t speak specifically about many of the schools you mentioned but know a fair amount about Lehigh. You mention woeful recruiting at these schools (I assume compared to larger state flagships known for engineering). Lehigh is actually a very good engineering schools with very good engineering placement. In addition to a regular engineering program, they have a unique combo called IBE (very selective) where the student gets a major in both engineering and business (also has a great business school). Engineering classes taught by engineering profs and business by business.

Have a great buddy who went to Tufts UG engineering. His daughter went to UMass Honors engineering and got a fantastic job at Exxon Mobile right away. He told me he would send his son to UMass Honors UNLESS he was selected for Lehigh’s IBE, which he was, so that’s where he is. Loves it.

You can get some info on the program from their website but it may be a good reason to track down the head of that program to get lots of details. We found Lehigh to be quite helpful and communicative.

@rickle1 Sorry, I meant that my knowledge is woeful, not the recruiting itself. As in, we would need to do some research! Thanks for the thoughts on Lehigh – very helpful!

We are lucky in this country to have a wide variety of choices for higher education and not so lucky that the cost of attendance, even at public universities, is extremely high, sometimes out of reach. Not only do our children have to search carefully for the best possible experience, we, as parents have to search for the place we can afford to send them. Most of us are not in a position to write off one set of schools vs. another. Nor should we. Every child is different and every family’s finances are different.

That being said, like @cypresspat, I have a certain bias based on my own experiences. I went to a competitive SUNY (I’m dating myself by saying that it was the most competitive public institution in the US at the time I went) where, as a very quiet and awkward young person, I was totally lost. Everyone seemed to know each other before they even reached the campus. The people I knew from high school were the ones I was trying to escape. (It’s hard to meet people from all over the world when your school accepts the vast majority of its students from within its own state.)
There was no real advising or guidance and I felt as if I was simply in high school 2.0. Sure, there were some smart kids around me but my general sense of the place was that the cohort was lower than the kids I’d had with me in AP classes in high school. Far from opening up a new world, this felt extremely limiting. I really disliked my college years. Since then, I have talked to others who had very different experiences and loved their time at SUNY so again and again, over the years, I tried to rein in my bias.

When my children’s time came to look at college, my husband and I encouraged them to look at a variety of schools. We have relatives and friends who are passionate supporters of lots of schools, both public and private. I have a good friend who was very similar to me, ended up at SUNY, and just by luck was advised to enter a small major that gave her a very personalized enriched experience. I recognized that not everyone had my experience at a state school. In other words, we were looking at fit over public/private per se but we were also prepared to sacrifice for their educations and we counted ourselves extremely blessed to be able to make that choice.

One concern was that our state schools, while highly regarded, require kids to choose a major before even being enrolled and there is very little flexibility to change that path after starting. We did not want them to be in a place where getting required classes would be difficult or where they would be treated as numbers rather than people. My youngest, who is not an assertive sort, needed a place where she would find guidance and excellent advising. They were not interested in heading for schools that would place them way at the top of the cohort, all three wanted real peers. Not a single one of my girls is motivated by GPA over learning. In fact, I’d say my eldest is almost anti-GPA, lol, if that’s such a thing. Ironically, they all did really well in college. And please don’t misunderstand, in no way am I saying that they thought they were too good for state schools. I’m only saying that public or private, they wanted schools where they would fit with the mission and vibe of the school. State schools that select from a broad swath of kids from all over the country like Michigan were high on at least one of their lists. Schools that select overwhelmingly from their own state probably would not have worked as well.

I don’t know how they would have done at a larger, state university. All I can say is that they all thrived at the schools they chose. My quiet youngest worked one-on-one with a professor to develop and complete her thesis and acknowledges that this was a great facet of her education. This was required for her major; it was not something she had to seek out or compete for. In all likelihood, this particular thesis and area of study would not have been available to her at our state universities. She also developed very close relationships with a very strong set of peers as they worked on p-sets together; collaboration was emphasized. Those collaborations grew into friendships that will go well beyond the college years.

Sorry this ended up so long. Essentially it goes back to my first paragraph. Different kids have different needs and different families have different priorities and different means.

I make no secret of it that I prefer LACs, in general. I pushed them for my kid. But I do warn those who get really think that their kids will get that special nurturing treatment that @cypresspat has experienced. Friends for life and lotsa love and nurturing while on campus sounds idyllic. Perhaps the chances of this happening are better at a LAC, any small college, but I can’t attest to that. It can depend a lot on the kids, the college and that special mix that occurs.

As a case in point, my son who went to a largish OOS university, where he basically knew no one has a number of friends that are very close and get together st a drop of a hat, as well as times of need. For a couple of years after graduation, they were still going back to State U for game weekends and hanging around the old haunts to a point that I was beginning to narrow my eyes. This is not a particularly social kid either. He just got into a nice comfortable group of people that hung out a lot and still enjoy that company. Those college years and experiences bring the warmest of memories to that group of young people. I see the same happening with my youngest who just graduated from a national university.

There are those who didn’t feel comfortable at their LAC as well. The wrong combo and you can feel like your kid was abandoned there. I know many a disappointed parent who paid a huge premium for their kids to get that extra that did not happen.

It’s wonderful if the school your student picks is a great match. Magical, to me. It’s not all about the job they get right after college either. It’s a place for some of our kids to grow up a bit, or a lot. If they enjoyed those years, grew up, got an education, made some good friends and weren’t stressed out too much, it’s a good match

I’m looking at college possibilities for a cousin’s son, and I do believe a smaller school would be the best match that would give him the best chance of successfully completing college and enjoying the experience. But there have been other kids, I’ve well known, for which the Big U experience was preferable. This is even with my ingrained bias for LACs.

@homerdog I apologize if you read my comments about the choosing a major as directed at your son. They were a counterpoint to the generic points you raised about majors at public U’s.

I don’t doubt that you have done your homework. I was just responding to a generic comment.

@3girls3cats and @cptofthehouse both of you make excellent points. It really does depend on the kid! LACs are wonderful, but they aren’t for everyone. Same with large State U’s.

Where do the Vals and Sals go? I’ve seen this question a few times over that years on CC, the answers is most, along with their peers, go to their state schools. There was a recent article in our local paper, The Austin Statesman, that listed the Vals and Sals from area high schools and out of the 32 highest ranking students:

17 will attend UT Austin

1 not going on to a four year college (attending a technical school for sound recording)

5 will be attending other Texas states schools (UT Dallas, UT Arlington, Texas State (2), Texas Tech)

2 instate privates (Rice, Trinity)

1 out of state public (Oklahoma State)

6 out of state privates (university of Chicago, Caltech, Brigham Young, Cornell, Johns Hopkins, Wellesley)

https://www.statesman.com/photogallery/TX/20190521/NEWS/521009993/PH/1/