Prospective Law Student -Advice needed

Graduate School Law School
1

<p>I am currently a high school senior and this upcoming spring I will graduate from high school and community college. I am set on attending Law School, and would really appreciate some advice from you guys. Please hear me out.
I have been following this forum closely, learning quietly, and by now I have gained some respect for most of the moderators and other frequent repliers on here. You guys seem to give sound and appropriate advice on a regular basis. I hope you may assist me in the same manner.</p>

<p>My situation is quite unique, and some of it must remain confidential, however, I will do my best to present my case...</p>

<p>I came to the US around five years ago as a political refugee. I was born in South America where my dad was involve in politics --won't specify country-- and my first language is Spanish. I am now 21, and will graduate high school this spring. I am obviously older than the regular high school senior, which is due to the harsh circumstances in which I left my native country. You see, I wasn't able to validate any of my previous studies --I was one year short from high school graduate back then. Once here in the States I didn't know any English, and to my loss, my unofficial records were handled poorly. Thus, My high school record suffered badly. </p>

<p>To make things a bit more complicated, since my arrival here, I’ve always been obliged to work in order to provide for my family. Since my early days in this country I have been juggling too many responsibilities –definitely too many for a 16 year old. On a good note though, my situation has significantly improved, I am now fully trilingual, very mature, and my life is reaching a stabilizing point. My mother re-married, and I am not longer the man of the house. As of now, I want to start focusing on my future career and put forth all my energy towards earning a Law degree from a top institution. </p>

<p>The first step is obviously an undergraduate degree. As of today, my high school GPA is 2.5, and my SAT is 1010 (V580, M430)…I know this is a very poor record, and that even as a US minority, it will be tough to get into a top school. I do belief however, that I have the potential to do significantly better. I took the SAT with no preparation while working 40 hours a week, in strenous labor which certainly doesn’t help. On a more positive vein, during my past two years of high school I have been a dual enrollment student at a local community college. I will earn a high school diploma and a 2 year degree concurrently. My college GPA is significantly better, and though not perfect it may help me transfer into a decent school. It is 3.7 to be specific.
I am looking at regional schools in the Northwest, where I reside. I am also thinking about applying to a few stretches. However, I will most likely attend The Evergreen State College if I don’t receive enough financial aid from the other schools. TESC is close to my house, and is also inexpensive. I will probably graduate in as short as 6 quarters from now –thinking winter 07’. Given this situation I feel it is paramount I start getting ready for Law school right now. As some of you probably know, this school gives no GPA to its students, so the LSAT will be the only quantitative factor in my application. Should I retake the SAT or start focusing on the LSAT? </p>

<p>As far as Law School goes, call me crazy if you want, but I am hoping for a top 10 ---more like a top three and columbia. I am particuarly interested in International Law and Human Rights. I believe only a top, well-known school can give me the platform to make a difference in this area. I am strongly committed to preventing similar situations to what I lived through. I wonder how I could best prepare for a Top Law School? I have two years left for my undergraduate degree at the most. Should I pursue Graduate School instead, and the Law? Would I be more competitive that way?</p>

<p>There are just so many variables to consider. Something I have been doing for the past months. I now however, must turn to you, the older and wiser, in hope to receive some guidance. In my opinion, if any stat reflects a bit of my potential, I’d say it is my 3.7 community college GPA. During my time there I have developed a strong resume, extra-curricular, leadership, work experience, strong recommendations, etc.</p>

<p>Should I try to attend a top undergraduate and then Law? Or graduate according to my initial plan (2 years at a local school) and then pursue Law? Please help me out here.</p>

<p>Thanks!</p>

2

<p>My concern is that law schools will look askance at any college that does not give grades. </p>

<p>It may be better to attend a more traditional college, even if you have to do some more CC work and then transfer. </p>

<p>Ultimately, if you get good grades, and do well on the LSAT, then you should have a shot at top schools. (There are a few others which will also serve you well for what you want.) </p>

<p>Being a minority will clearly help, but I believe this is only true if you are an American citizen. Therefore, if you have not already, make sure you get your citizenship. (Look into this further if necessary.) </p>

<p>Aside from that, you should have a lot of great material for a personal statement. </p>

<p>Finally, it seems like you've mastered English, so prep long and hard for the LSAT before you take it -- this is always a key factor.</p>

3

<p>Your original post suggests you have given this a lot of thought. I suspect what ever decision you make, will be the right decision for you.</p>

<p>With that said, if you wish to get into a Top 10 Law School you will have to have demonstrated exceptional academic performance in a difficult academic setting. Grades from a community college or going to a college that does not give grades would not fall into that category.</p>

<p>Law schools like students who already have graduate degrees. Yale law school admits quite a few students with more than undergraduate degrees. You could apply to both law school and graduate school and if you don't get into the law school of your choice, go to graduate school and try again later. There are a number of graduate schools offering programs providing a good foundation for work in international law and human rights. </p>

<p>Your SAT score isn't important but your LSAT will be extremely important. Take an LSAT prep course. If you can't afford it, go through all the LSAT prep books you can find and practice like there ain't no tomorrow, because there may not be without a good LSAT score. </p>

<p>Are you sure you want to go into international law and human rights? Most of international law is actually business law. You won't need a law degree to do most human rights work, but then, again, human rights is a very broad category. If you are interested in changing things in a foreign country, have you considered education that would put you on the foreign service track?</p>

4

<p>Evergreen is a well-regarded college.I'm sure you won't be the first graduate to go to law school from Evergreen. I just googled, and it looks like it has an excellent OCD---Office of Career Development. If I were you, I'd stop by and visit it before you enroll, explaining that you want to attend law school, and ask how they process law school applications and what law schools its recent grads have been accepted by/have matriculated to. It looks as if Evergreen has some sort of special committee that helps. Now in truth, I doubt many go to top 10 law schools. But then find out the same information for any other colleges you are considering. There may not be much difference. </p>

<p>Due to your unusual background, I'd throw a transfer college application into some superreaches. Transfer applications are often due March 1, so get cracking immediately! You might shoot for Stanford--no I'm not kidding. It's unlikely, but, with your background, worth a shot. About half their transfer acceptances are from community colleges and, based on some past experience with other kids, they like "stories". Of course, you should also try for the U of Washington. </p>

<p>But do NOT feel as if you are doomed if you end up at Evergreen. It's not the only college in the country that doesn't give grades--there are several that I know of and I'm no expert. Law schools do not just "boycott" these colleges. I just check the list of Harvard Law students. There's one from Evergreen currently attending--see </p>

<p><a href="http://www.law.harvard.edu/admissions/jd/colleges.php%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.law.harvard.edu/admissions/jd/colleges.php&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>But again, go see OCD at Evergreen now and find out for yourself how law school applications from Evergreen turn out.</p>

<p>Good luck!</p>

5

<p>I'm a bit confused as to why you think you have to get through Evergreen in six quarters. You may be better off taking longer. I also don't quite understand your question about pursuing graduate school.</p>

<p>Again, go talk to the OCD folks at Evergreen or any other universities to which you have applied. But here's some information that may be of help:</p>

<p>Your official gpa for law school admissions is based ONLY on courses taken before you are awarded your first bachelors degree. Graduate program grades will NOT be included. So, it may be better for you to take longer getting that first degree than to race through and get one in a year and a half and then go to grad school and then try for law school. Even if you go to Evergreen, and thus have no grades, you will be asking for letters of rec from professors who are unlikely to know you very well, since you will have spent so little time there. ESPECIALLY without grades, that's going to hurt you. </p>

<p>Grad school can cost money too. While Ph.D. programs are often funded, it doesn't sound as if you are in great shape to get into one, especially if you only go to a four year college for a year and a half. You'd probably have to go for a master's degree first, and those programs often require that you pay for them. Adding debt for a master's program to debt for law school doesn't seem wise to me, especially since you seem to only want to pursue the master's based on some ephemeral idea that it might help you get into a more selective law school. Personally, I think you'd be better served by going into the same amount of debt to spend more time as an undergraduate and obtaining a more extensive and more impressive undergraduate record. </p>

<p>While many students at Yale or Harvard Law school have graduate degrees, a lot of those students were accepted before they got the degrees and deferred to obtain them. There are a lot of Rhodes, Marshall, Fullbright, Gates, Watson, Keesey (spelling?), Rotary, etc. scholars, as well as many students who got school specific fellowships to study abroad after graduation, e.g., the Henry, which is only offered at Harvard and Yale Colleges. In other words, a lot of the graduate degrees held by students from top schools were special fellowships and, in most cases, the students had already been accepted to law school and deferred attending law school to use the fellowship. I think the post from thinkingoutloud implies that graduate degrees HELP students get into Yale Law. That is undoubtedly true in some cases, but you can't just count the number of graduate degrees held by JD students and conclude that going to graduate school helps a lot to get in. One reason is that, as I'm tried to explain, a lot of those with graduate degrees were accepted before they got them. (In other words, they applied to law school and for the Rhodes, Marshall, etc., as seniors in college, got into law school and were allowed to defer when they won a Rhodes. ) Another is that many students had the kind of credentials that could have gotten them into law school directly from college, but chose Ph.D. programs. People who got into Ph.D. programs in economics or philosophy at schools like UChicago probably could have gotten into a top law school in the first place. </p>

<p>There's a poster on another website who calls himself PhDCandidate. He has a Ph.D. degree from a respectable large Midwestern U in philosophy and has taught philosophy for several years at respectable colleges, including Fordham. He applied to UChicago Law ED and did not get in. His conclusion is that his great record in graduate school still did not offset his mediocre undergrad gpa. Just anecdotal evidence, of course, but still...</p>

<p>I'm not an expert...and I'm not claiming I am...so do go see those OCD folks.</p>

6

<p>I agree the OP should do further research on how law schools will treat a program like Evergreen. However, I have to imagine it's harder to get into a good law school without an undergraduate GPA. (The HLS student from Evergreen is quite likely a URM, and again, I'm not sure if the OP qualifies as such yet.) </p>

<p>So, while it's possible that Evergreen may turn out to be a decent choice, given the finances involved, it may or may not be the best choice. (A little borrowing now may also be worthwhile.) </p>

<p>I do agree that the OP shouldn't try to rush through college, especially since they should be developing their academic skills as much as possible before law school. There's obviously a ton of reading involved in LS.</p>

7

<p>Wildflower,</p>

<p>You write extremely well. Jonri's right - you may indeed be able to gain admission at Stanford, or another school of that ilk. Your high school grades are unlikely to matter much, in view of your compelling personal story, but you might think about signing up for the next administration of the SAT, and taking as many practice tests as you can fit into your schedule between now and then. </p>

<p>You could also get a fine education at Evergreen. If you go there, your recommendations are likely to play an particularly important role in your law school applications, so you should make a particularly effort to get to know your professors. The LSAT plays a big role in everyone's law school applications, so I would plan to make a serious time commitment to prepare for that.</p>

<p>You should also give serious thought to developing further your talent for writing. Having some publications under your by-line can open a lot of doors for you, at law schools and elsewhere.</p>

<p>You should certainly aim for the top laws schools, but don't feel that if you fall short in your quest to gain admission to one of them that you can't make a meaningful contribution in international law and human rights. Being trilingual may open doors for you that would remain closed to monolingual graduates of other schools. Moreover, the impact a lawyer can have on the lives of his or her clients can be huge, regardless of her/her educational pedigree.</p>

8

<p>Never mind the obviously excellent writing skill, the grammatical construction is superb; it almost makes those SAT scores seem implausible.</p>

9

<p>I don't claim to know the ethnicity of the current HLS student who attends Evergreen. However, I know that this is not the first Evergreen student to attend Harvard Law and that not all of them were minority. It's hard to find proof of this, but I did find a picture of one of them on line, so please feel free to check the website of Swindler Berlin, a law firm. You will see a photo of a white female attorney who has an undergrad degree from Evergreen and a JD from Harvard. I assure you that she's not the only one--just the only one I could find a picture of on-line. </p>

<p>There are a number of connections between the two schools. For example, the founder of the gay students association at HLS, back in 1978, is a professor at Evergreen who was recently honored by HLS as one of its most outstanding alumni. (He is URM.) One of the senior fellows at the Berkman Center for Internet Law at HLS is Dr. James Moore. He is an Evergreen grad, and is not a URM. True, he doesn't have a law degree from Harvard, but he's certainly a very visible presence at the law school. </p>

<p>Using google, I found an associate at Cravath--one of the most prestigious firms in NYC--who is an Evergreen grad with a law degree from UVa. Her name doesn't sound as if she's URM. I also found an attorney at Tonkon Trop, who graduated from Evergreen and Boston College Law. Photo shows she is white. </p>

<p>Evergreen grads, I mean those who attend Evergreen all 4 years, usually have transcripts 50+ pages in length detailing their performance in every class they've taken. It's not as if there's no basis for an evaluation. </p>

<p>I don't know if the OP will end up at Evergreen, but I think it's unfair to suggest that the lack of grades at Evergreen dooms its students when they apply to law school. It really doesn't.</p>

10

<p>Guys, now I am afraid to write! I may ruin my new-gained reputation or something, ha ha. Anyway, thank you for all your advice! It is indeed appreciated, and will definitely be taken into consideration. </p>

<p>As of today, I am applying to 20 undergraduate schools -- don't worry, due to financial circumstances I get application fee waivers. My dream school for an undergraduate education is Stanford, to which I am applying; however, I know it is a reach even for the best students. So, wherever I receive the best financial aid packet is where I'll go. I did apply for a two-year tuition waiver based on "diversity" at TESC, that's why I'm thinking I will more likely end up there. It is also ten minutes from my house, so I would have no expenses, which is certainly nice.</p>

<p>I do qualify as a URM; however, I want to feel deserving of acceptance at a top school. I wouldn't apply to a top law school if I didn't feel qualified. I do believe Law is in my blood though. My father was not only a Public servant, but also a Lawyer and a Law Professor. I do feel a calling for all three --Law, Academia, and Public Service. I believe that in order to fulfill my potential I need to attend a Top Law School, especially for the public service arena. </p>

<p>As far as rushing to college, I will not. It is just what I need to earn a BA from Evergreen or University of WA. It will take longer if I go out of state, but that not only means more time, but also money I don't have. If I end up at TESC, I could earn a BA and a BS concurrently in three years, which is something I am very interested in doing. We shall see. I've also thought of earning a distance LL.B from the University of London while attending evergreen. I know it sounds like trying to do too much but, I just find it exciting! Ever since I started at the community college I’ve been taking 25 credits per quarter. Yes, that is almost double full-time. In all honesty, I don’t know why, I guess because it was free, and/or because I wanted to redeem/prove myself. silly me.</p>

<p>As far as my law school choices, I am particularly interested in Harvard and Columbia. I've been looking at their joint-international degrees with U. of Cambridge, and London School of Economics respectively. I could earn a JD/LL.M degree in three years! At the same time, I also drool for Stanford and Yale. I know there are some other great Law schools but those are my final choices. On a similar topic, I would also like to earn an MBA and a M.A in International Relations...Should I do this before or after? I don't want to put too much on my plate, but those are my academic goals and I plan to pursue them aggressively.</p>

<p>On a different note, I took the ACT this past Saturday. I don't know how I did though. I felt a little silly however, sitting next to a bunch of 16 year olds. I think I should start focusing on the LSAT and just see where I am accepted. My circumstances certainly were unique; I hope some college may be “smart” enough to realize that.</p>

<p>Lastly, Greybeard, what kind of publications are you referring to? I am a writer for my CC newspaper. I don’t think that matters much though. Please feel free to enlighten this foolish young man. I'd appreciate it. Once again, thank you all! Your advice means the world to me.</p>

11

<p>College publications are certainly a good place to start. Keep a file of what you've written. When you transfer to a four-year school, you see what publications the students there put out, and consider submitting something there.</p>

<p>It was not my intent to discourage you from aiming for the very best law schools, but rather to point out that failure to attend one won't necessarily stop you from achieving your dreams. I don't think you could point to an American lawyer who accomplished more to advance the cause of social justice in 20th century American courtrooms than Thurgood Marshall did with his degree from Howard University.</p>

12

<p>Hey, Jonri. </p>

<p>The reason I believed the Evergreen student at HLS is probably a URM is that top schools usually only offer wide flexibility on grades to such students.</p>

<p>Also, while your research on Evergreen is certainly impressive, I really wish you would read other's posts more carefully before responding. I never said the lack of grades "dooms" Evergreen students when they apply to law school. I simply indicated that this might make it harder to get into a top program -- and I have to think this is probably true. The reason law schools use GPA is so they have a quick and solid measure of academic ability. If they have to look at a 50-page transcript, on the other hand, that's a great deal of extra effort, not to mention the subjectivity of such evalutations. Many law school may simply choose to toss such an application, unless there is a compelling reason not to do so. </p>

<p>Now, the OP does in fact appear to be a URM (as well as a generally interesting candidate), so schools may be more willing to look beyond the lack of a GPA to work with in her case, especially if her LSAT is strong. Apparently, HLS has done so in the past, even when the person wasn't a URM. </p>

<p>However, the real question is not whether or not it's possible to get into HLS from Evergreen -- it's whether it's more or less likely to happen from Evergreen than from other schools. This is why I encourage the OP to do more research on how law schools might view Evergreen vs. other colleges -- because if they do in fact have a preference for schools that provide grades, this may be worth paying for.</p>

13

<p>Hey, Wildflower. </p>

<p>Just to note - I wouldn't feel bad about using your URM status when applying to top programs, especially when, in your case, it ties into an interesting personal statement. People use everything they can when they get into law school, whether it's having attended an ivy undergrad, played college sports, or an unusual background. </p>

<p>Either way, you'll probably have to have a pretty impressive academic record, so just make sure you develop it.</p>

14

<p>"The reason I believed the Evergreen student at HLS is probably a URM is that top schools usually only offer wide flexibility on grades to such students."</p>

<p>Frankly, I don't think that's much different than stating that the only Evergreen students who aren't doomed in attempts to get into top law schools are URMs. </p>

<p>Please explain the basis for the quoted conclusion. You state it as fact. Now, perhaps you have a basis for your opinion, but, if so, it's not set forth in any of your posts. You state that "apparently" HLS has overlooked the fact that there are no grades, even when the person isn't minority. Seriously, take a look at Swidler Berlin's website...and tell me it's "apparently." It's not just HLS--UVa is a top 14 school. Boston College is a top 25. Moreover, Evergreen is not the only college out there without grades--are you SERIOUSLY claiming that only URMs from Goddard, U of Central Florida, Hampshire, etc., get into top law schools--no white or Asian students do? If so, again, please state the basis for what appears from your posts to be a mere assertion by you. </p>

<p>You state "I have to think this is probably true. " I think that's called pure speculation. You also stated that the only Evergreen student at HLS is "very likely a minority." I also think this is pure, unadulterated speculation. The latter is a kind of speculation that I personally dislike--and which I don't think helps anyone. It is , in fact, the reason I responded to your posts.</p>

<p>The bottom line is this: Your post implies that only URMs from schools that do not grade can get into top colleges. If you have some BASIS for that statement, please post it. Thus far,you haven't. Your basis seems to be that you THINK this is PROBABLY true.</p>

<p>Lots of kids read these boards. Readers other than the OP will conclude that going to Goddard or UCentral Florida, etc., means that if they aren't URMs they can't go on to top law schools and will choose their colleges accordingly. Again, if you have some PROOF that what you are saying is true, please post it. Personally, I don't think what you are saying has any validity. I think all of these colleges get students into top law schools at just about the same rate as other comparable colleges that give grades and that you are doing a serious disservice by just ASSUMING that they don't. </p>

<p>As I've already said, the OP and any other prospective student should check this information out for each particular college before enrolling. This should be done whether or not the college gives grades.</p>

15

<p>Hey, Jonri. </p>

<p>I'm sure you're very capable of reading. I just think, for some reason, you tend to work yourself into a frenzy whenever someone disagrees with you, and don't really note what they're actually saying (as in your most recent post). Therefore, your replies often don't really clarify much, because you're simply attacking a strawman of your own creation. </p>

<p>"'The reason I believed the Evergreen student at HLS is probably a URM is that top schools usually only offer wide flexibility on grades to such students.'</p>

<p>Frankly, I don't think that's much different than stating that the only Evergreen students who aren't doomed in attempts to get into top law schools are URMs."</p>

<p>First off, I was simply stating the basis for my belief that the Evergreen student at HLS was probably a URM. Given that HLS usually only offers wide grade flexibility to URM's, it would seem to follow that they're more likely to extend non-grade flexibilty to URM's as well. </p>

<p>This simply seems like common sense. However, given that I'm speaking in terms of probabilties, not certainties, I don't believe this is the same thing as saying that non-URM's from Evergreen are "doomed" to rejection from top law schools (though such rejection does seem more likely.) </p>

<p>"Please explain the basis for the quoted conclusion. You state it as fact."</p>

<p>First off, Jonri -- are you really going to argue that HLS frequently offers wide grade flexibility for people who aren't URM's? I think it's pretty widely accepted that HLS generally requires pretty high grades across the board. When they do dip well below the median, it's generally for ethnic minorities. (Why would they allow in white applicants with crappy GPA's when there are thousands of of such applicants, from all backgrounds, with both high grades and high LSAT's?). I don't know anyone who would seriously argue this point. If you really need actual data, you're welcome to contact the HLS admissions office. </p>

<p>"You state that "apparently" HLS has overlooked the fact that there are no grades, even when the person isn't minority. Seriously, take a look at Swidler Berlin's website...and tell me it's "apparently.""</p>

<p>I did take a look at the website, and it does appear that the person in question is not a URM. That's why I said "apparently". (I think you may be unclear on the meaning of the word.) It is also possible, of course, that the person is 1/2 hispanic, in which case she would still be considered a URM, despite her features and surname. (I personally know several URM's who are blond, white, and have anglo surnames.)</p>

<p>"It's not just HLS--UVa is a top 14 school. Boston College is a top 25."</p>

<p>Actually, UVa is a top 10, and BC is not a top school in the sense that the OP is discussing. More importantly, we really don't know if those people are URM's or not. You certainly can't tell from a name (not all african-americans are named Shaniqua), nor can you really tell from a picture (there are actually a number of blond, blue-eyed people in Mexico, and most Hispanics are essentially white). </p>

<p>But the most important point, again, is that it is really irrelevant whether or not HLS (or UVa) takes ANY non-URM's from Evergreen. The relevant question, as I'm sure you'll agree, is whether going to Evergreen will make it signficantly more difficult for someone to get into HLS. I don't know if it will or not, but it certainly seems possible, and students should probably look into this. </p>

<p>"Moreover, Evergreen is not the only college out there without grades--are you SERIOUSLY claiming that only URMs from Goddard, U of Central Florida, Hampshire, etc., get into top law schools--no white or Asian students do? If so, again, please state the basis for what appears from your posts to be a mere assertion by you."</p>

<p>No, again, if you actually read my posts, you'll see that I'm not not claiming that NO non-URM's without grades EVER get into top law schools. I'm simply saying that common sense would indicate it is probably less likely. </p>

<p>The reason it is probably less likely, again, is that all law schools are heavily numbers-focused. The reason they are heavily numbers focused is because A) they want to be sure the student has a record of high academic achievement, and B) this makes processing applications much easier. It is foreseeable that a law school may deviate from this approach, and read a 50+ page transcript, when they are seeking out someone who is severely underrepresented at the program. It seems far less likely that they would do so, however, when there are literally thousands of applicants before them who already have actual grades and LSAT scores. </p>

<p>I'm honestly not sure why that reasoning would be difficult to follow. </p>

<p>"The bottom line is this: Your post implies that only URMs from schools that do not grade can get into top colleges."</p>

<p>No, it doesn't. You may have somehow inferred that, but my post never implied that. What it did imply is that non-URM's from non-grade schools will probably have a harder time getting into top law schools -- and this is most likely true. (My basis for this belief is stated above.) </p>

<p>"Lots of kids read these boards. Readers other than the OP will conclude that going to Goddard or UCentral Florida, etc., means that if they aren't URMs they can't go on to top law schools and will choose their colleges accordingly."</p>

<p>Yes, lots of kids read these boards, and that's why I think it's important that they have good information. Given that it probably will be more difficult for them to go to a top law school from a school that doesn't give grades, it probably is important that they're aware of this when choosing their colleges. I guess we're in agreement on this. </p>

<p>"Again, if you have some PROOF that what you are saying is true, please post it."</p>

<p>I don't have any conclusive proof that what I'm saying is true. It's certainly possible that HLS doesn't really care about grades, and all evidence to the contrary is just coincidental. On the other hand, you certainly have no conclusive evidence to the contrary. In light of all the available evidence, however, and the standard biases generally involved in law school admissions, it would certainly stand to reason that getting into a top law school without grades would generally be more difficult. If you have any proof to the contrary (e.g., that top school adcomm comittees prefer poring over lengthy evaluations vs. calculating indices when they have thousands of applicants to review), you should certainly feel free to post it. </p>

<p>"Personally, I don't think what you are saying has any validity."</p>

<p>That's fine, you're entitled to your opinion. </p>

<p>"I think all of these colleges get students into top law schools at just about the same rate as other comparable colleges that give grades and that you are doing a serious disservice by just ASSUMING that they don't."</p>

<p>Well, you're clearly making an even larger assumption by assuming that there's no differential in treatment. As for whether there's a disservice, I think it's a far greater disservice to not point out to kids that this MAY be an issue when applying to law school. As I actually stated, the OP (and other students) should carefully research this issue, to determine if it is a problem, and, if so, how significant it is. I'm not sure how any reasonable person could argue with this.</p>

16

<p>I won't argue any further with you on this after this post, but I think your reasoning is entirely illogical. I'll leave it to readers to decide for themselves whether or not I'm right. </p>

<p>There are two concepts here:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Top LSs are more likely to accept URMs with lower GPA's than they are to accept whites with lower GPA's. I agree. (But there are many whites accepted at LS with below median GPA's and a wide variety of reasons they are accepted.)</p>

<ol>
<li>Top LSs will "usually only" accept students from colleges that don't give grades if they are URMs.</li>
</ol></li>
</ol>

<p>You say that #2 follows logically from #1 and that's "common sense." I don't think #2 follows from #1 and it is wholly illogical to argue that it does. You can claim that my paraphrasing does you an injustice, but you leapt to the conclusion that the Evergreen grad at HLS is a URM with absolutely no other evidence of that fact than point #1 above. I think that DEFIES common sense, rather than illustrating it. </p>

<p>You now rephrase your point #2 as follows:</p>

<p>"What it did imply is that non-URM's from non-grade schools will probably have a harder time getting into top law schools -- and this is most likely true. "</p>

<p>#1 is the ONLY evidence you have of the truth of #2, even as rephrased by you. Readers can decide for themselves whether #2 even as rephrased follows logically from #1 and if that's so evident it's "common sense." You are GUESSING that it's true...but your earlier posts certainly made it seem as if you KNOW it's true--why else post that the only Evergreen student currently enrolled at HLS is "very likely" a URM? </p>

<p>I honestly think that some high school kid could read your posts and receive the impression that he should pass up Evergreen or Goddard or Hampshire for a college of lesser quality, that costs more money and is a worse "fit" simply because it gives grades. I think that's bad advice.</p>

<p>You say:</p>

<pre><code>"Yes, lots of kids read these boards, and that's why I think it's important that they have good information. Given that it probably will be more difficult for them to go to a top law school from a school that doesn't give grades, it probably is important that they're aware of this when choosing their colleges. I guess we're in agreement on this."
</code></pre>

<p>No, we disagree somewhat. I agree with you that kids who read these boards need good information. I think the next sentence I've quoted above is YOUR PERSONAL OPINION, not "good information" and that they most definitely should not rely on your personal opinion that "it probably will be more difficult for them to go to a top law school from a school that doesn't give grades..." At least now you say it MAY be a problem. Your earlier messages clearly state it IS a problem. </p>

<p>I think how successful the candidate from a school that gives detailed evaluations rather than grades will be in the LS admissions process depends upon what mechanisms the particular college in question has developed to deal with the "handicap" of getting detailed analyses of your work rather than a letter grade. I think it's "common sense" that those mechanisms will have a LOT more bearing on how successful applicants from any given school will be than whether or not they are URMs. </p>

<p>Again, I urge the OP to talk to OCD or the equivalent at the colleges at which he is accepted to find out how they fare in LS admissions and that anyone else who is interested in a college that doesn't give grades do the same.</p>

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<p>I am currently a freshman at a University that is known for its grade deflation. After attending an information session about law school admissions and learning that college GPA and the LSAT are the overwhelmingly major factors that decide admission into a law school, I am starting to wonder if I am in the right place. Would I benefit from transfering into a less demanding school where I would earn a 3.6 GPA instead of receiving a 3.2 here?</p>

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<p>threadjack anyone?</p>

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<p>sorry i never used this before and i did not notice that this was your thread. Everyone disregard my message.</p>

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<p>Not a big deal...just forum common courtesy. Anyway, best of luck!</p>