<p>marysidney – I totally agree – that’s what I was trying to say – but you said it better</p>
<p>There are lots of LACs that are not <em>as</em> selective, but I don’t know of one with reasonable academic rigor that admits more than 90% of the class, which is the definition of safety I thought CC was using. Anything less than 90% isn’t a safety, it’s a match of some sort.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>However, many of them now use “level of interest” so that they can reject applicants who appear to be using them as safeties. So a student who feels that s/he will only find a “good fit” at a small LAC may find that the intersection of “good fit” and “safety” is the null set (not a very good position to be in, as it can result in the kind of “let down” that getting “shut out” or only getting into “poor fit” schools causes).</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>A very low admission rate does not necessarily mean reach; some non-impacted CSUs have oddly low admission rates, even though it should be trivial for the student and counselor to check the CSU eligibility chart to determine whether the student will be admitted before even applying (i.e. the school is either an admissions safety, or it is out of reach – there is no uncertainty that a reach or match implies).</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I think a lot of this depends on how you frame the search. I’m firmly in pugmadkate’s camp of looking for the safety first, because that’s the heavy lifting. With D1, we started by touring schools that are safeties or lower matches. Since she hadn’t toured lots of reaches, she didn’t have much basis to compare reaches and safeties. Those first safeties and matches set the initial bar. Sometimes that initial bar was surprisingly high. For instance, a “safety” school tourguide talked about one professor who’d take students on research trips to Antarctica. At every school she visited after that, the info session would make some mention about the school’s fabulous study abroad opportunities “on almost every continent”. D1 would shoot me a sly glance and a big smile–it certainly meant that that particular safety school (which didn’t make her final list) shone pretty brightly. </p>
<p>Another good exercise is to make the student list three things that they liked about a school they visited, even (especially!) if they hated the school. Conversely, they should list three things they hated about a school, even (especially!) if they fell madly in love with the campus. That’s going to help with the search, and it’s also going to help with managing expectations. There might be things they didn’t like, but could live with. It’s important for them to figure out what dislikes fall in that category, and what falls in the deal-killer category. And it’s important for them to see that there are things they’d look forward to, no matter where they end up.</p>
<p>If your pocketbook is limited, it’s even more important to try to fall in love (or strong like) with a safety early on. If the reach school turns your kid down, at least they can turn to the safety thinking “well, at least THEY like me!”. But if the reach proffers admission but not enough aid, there’s nothing to fall back on but whatever charms the safety school offers. That’s why I think it’s much better to start the process of learning to fall in love with the safety early on.</p>
<p>My interpretation of “safety” is more generous than that they admit 90% of their applicants–more along the lines of the applicant’s stats being quite high relative to the school’s applicant pool. Your mileage may vary. :)</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I think that your requirements here are exactly the problem. Academic rigor can be found in almost any school if a student is interested, but with an attitude like yours, a child who finds himself in a school that isn’t “reasonably rigorous” may become discouraged and depressed. I am sure there is a school the student would love for other reasons, even if the academics were not as great as could be wished.</p>
<p>*CSU eligibility chart to determine whether the student will be admitted before even applying (i.e. the school is either an admissions safety, or it is out of reach *</p>
<p>Ok I don’t know anything about this- is acceptance dependent on certain GPA/scores so you can know up front whether you will be accepted or not?</p>
<p>There is, however, a “fit” issue with (academic) safety and reach schools.</p>
<p>If a student attends an academic safety, there is a greater than average chance that s/he may find the academics not challenging or rigorous enough. Big schools with honors courses may mitigate that issue somewhat; if the student’s major happens to be a “hard” one that attracts the top students, that can also help. But if the student’s major happens to be an “easy” one, that may make the problem worse.</p>
<p>At the other end, a student who attends an academic reach has a greater risk of finding himself/herself at the bottom of the class, resulting in the opposite issues that a student attending an academic safety may encounter. Again, big schools with well known easier courses may allow the student to graduate, but perhaps not in the originally intended major if that was a “hard” major.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>For non-impacted CSU campuses and majors, the student calculates [GPA[/url</a>] in the [url=<a href=“Cal State Apply | CSU”>Freshman: Admission Requirements | CSU]required</a> courses](<a href=“Cal State Apply | CSU”>Cal State Apply | CSU) and then uses that and test scores to look up the [eligibility</a> chart<a href=“or%20the%20%5Burl=Cal State Apply | CSU”>/url</a>.</p>
<p>If CSU eligible, and the desired CSU campus and major are not [url=<a href=“Cal State Apply | CSU”>Cal State Apply | CSU]campus</a> impacted](<a href=“Cal State Apply | CSU”>GPA Calculator | CSU) or [major</a> impacted](<a href=“Cal State Apply | CSU”>Cal State Apply | CSU), then that should determine whether the student will be admitted.</p>
<p>An example of an oddity is that [url=<a href=“http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/lowest-acceptance-rate/page+2]USNWR[/url”>http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/lowest-acceptance-rate/page+2]USNWR[/url</a>] says that CSU East Bay, a non-impacted CSU campus, has a 22% acceptance rate, the same as UC Berkeley.</p>
<p>
That’s a ridiculous definition of a safety. The definition might be a 90% chance of your child getting in - which is a very different kettle of fish. Safety for my older son was RPI which at the time had an acceptance rate of around 65% (it went down to 40% that year as Newsweek listed it as a “New Ivy”). No one with his stats had ever been rejected and they sent him a priority application so that he knew before Thanksgiving that he was in. But even if he hadn’t heard early we were confident he’d be accepted. It’s a great school average SAT scores are Critical Reading: 610-700 and Math: 660-750 - not too shabby. (There are lots of good tech schools that are easy for high stat kids to get into.) It’s a little trickier for the non-STEM kids, but there are still plenty of choices. For younger son who wanted a mid-sized research university American was his safety. His SAT scores were well above 25th percentile. While it’s not a tippy top rated school - it’s good overall and it’s excellent in the field he was interested in International Relations. If he’d been looking at LACs there plenty to consider.</p>
<p>Since mathmom listed some schools, I will too (LACs). Rhodes has a 50% acceptance rate (very good school). Sewanee (or whatever they call it now) has a 62% acceptance rate (also very good school). Women’s colleges are generally a good admissions value as well. There are options out there.</p>
<p>Some kids are not going to find a safety that they love. But they can and should find safeties that they can make a strong case for attending.</p>
<p>true…some kids with modest stats and money concerns will find that their only safeties are the local CC and state public that they can commute to…whether they like it or not.</p>
<p>Too many kids only identify safeties by their stats, with little regard to affordability. The truth is that most safeties don’t give much need-based aid. Some don’t give much/any merit scholarships. So, a student may get accepted, but the school isn’t affordable. **A school that you don’t know FOR SURE is affordable is NOT a safety. **</p>
<p>Never assume that your parents can/will pay for a pricey school…even if you know that they have a high income. Consult with BOTH parents about finances so that you know what they can/will spend. </p>
<p>Lastly, some kids have their hearts so set on dream schools that their idea of a safety is a school that is “just like” their dream school. Rarely will a safety be “just like” their elite dream school.</p>
<p>ucbalumnus,
By superficial, I meant that criteria of being of certain status is superficial. The best is to choose the school that matcher personality and wide range of interests. However, some are completely taken by name alone and do not even consider price tag. Sometime it is pretty ridiculous as family visits just to show that they are considering applying/attending, which only mislead a kid inot believing that he/she actually can apply. Then parents turn around and say, sorry cannot pay. It does not make any sense except for showing off.<br>
I do not see anything superficial in believing that there is a perfect place for everybody. “perfect place” myth is NOT superficial. Perfect place leads to the best UG years and the best possible outcome for this particular student. It worked very well for my own kid, she choose very carfully, applied her own criteria, visited, got familiar with students and definitely was at the best place for herself. She has graduated, looking back is not a bad idea in evaluating your decision making. She has applied the same principles choosing her Med. School.</p>
<p>Our HS calls safety schools “likelys”. And if a student doesn’t want to attend a big U, they shouldn’t apply to any. As others said, there are plenty of smaller state colleges and private LACs that can serve as likelys, and may offer nice NICE merit money to snare a top student who might not have strongly considered the school. Neither of my s’s would apply to the big state flagship. Neither wanted a big U. They considered small to mid-sized schools (maximum size was about 15K IIRC). And if you/your kid is considering a school, they should show demonstrated interest, even if it is lower on their list. Contacting the admisions office, going to a local adcomm event is good. Visiting the school is better, but not always doable. </p>
<p>And IMO, many schools that are academic safetys for strong students are still good schools with a challenging curriculum.</p>
<p>Queen’s Mom, I’m not sure what you think my attitude is, or what’s wrong with wanting a school to be academically challenging, or why a student should have to love a school for other reasons than learning. Isn’t that the point of college, to learn? The point of choosing a safety carefully is finding one that is not too much of a come-down from one’s expectations. There is a difference between applying only to Ivies-and-a-safety, and applying to a range of schools. Even if you carefully find ten schools that vary in selectivity, you still need a rock-solid safety. That safety should not mean you have to compromise unduly on the quality of education you receive. State schools might well offer a safety with great academics; it seems more reasonable to me to compromise on the atmosphere one would prefer in a school than to compromise on academics, which is why I myself would not choose, even as a safety, a small school without academic rigor.</p>
<p>Mathmom: you were the one who said, on a thread yesterday, that a safety had to be one you were 90% sure of getting into. I don’t think anyone can be 90% sure of getting into a school, in this admissions market, unless it is stats-driven. Match is not the same as safety.</p>
<p>Queen´sMom:
I don´t agree with this statement.</p>
<p>There’s nothing wrong with applying to Ivy’s and a safety if you like the safety. There’s a kid in another thread who only got into Brandeis. He/she may have been disappointed, but you can get a fine education there. There will be plenty of challenge and plenty of opportunities. For some lucky kids who win the EA game - one of their reach schools may end up being their safety. </p>
<p>Everyone gets to decide what to compromise on for their safety. For some it’s academics, for others it’s location, for others it might be size. My youngest actually liked his safety better than some of his higher ranked schools and if he’d had to he was planning to do a serious second look to see if his initial impressions held. Neither of my kids went to the highest ranked school they got into.</p>
<p>MiamiDAP, I’d thought I’d ask: what do you mean when you say “perfect place?”</p>
<p>Do you mean “a” perfect place (and there might be handsful of those) or do you mean “the” perfect place, the only school among the 2400 or so that is right for a student?</p>
<p>Reason I ask is that ideally a kid’s list should be ONLY “perfect places”, at least one of which the student is virtually assured of being accepted to (aka safety) and all of which the student would be happy to attend.</p>
<p>Friend of mine’s child initially only applied EA to a very selective school. He was deferred, and had no intention of sending in any more apps. Mom and Dad pushed him to apply to more schools. All but 2 were also highly selective and top 20 schools. Of the 2 remaining schools, one was the state flagship, which he had no intention of attending at all, the other was a private school that was a match, but initially had no intention of attending. He was rejected/ waitlisted from all of the highly selective schools, including his #1 choice that he had been deferred. He attends the private school now, and is happy, but he had made no attempt to visit prior to his acceptance. He was lucky that his parents encouraged him to apply to the school he attends, or else he would have been miserable at the state U.</p>
<p>This is an interesting thread - with our D12 we’re focusing on schools she’d like to attend because of the program she wants, class availability, size, and not so much on where the school ranks in the USNWR. We’ve found that she has several in the top 25 but also several in the 100-150s. Not sure what to make of that.</p>
<p>Brandeis isn’t a safety! On my daughter’s school Naviance, of the 8 kids who applied there last year, 1 got in. Average SAT of 2090. It’s a very good school, a rigorous school–a match school. But you couldn’t count on getting in, even with very good stats (for one thing, of course, it’s not need-blind). You’d still need a safety.</p>