<p>“I think it really depends on the major and the student.” - exactly my point, it depends on STUDENT, not so much the place. D. commented, that she took advantage of opportunities that others were passing by. It is applicable to academics as well.</p>
<p>There are plenty of small private colleges that do not approach the rigor of any state university, and probably do not have any valedictorians in attendance. There are many “lower tier” schools with no honors program. Just because MiamiDAP’s D is happy and challenged in one particular state school does not mean every one (or maybe even most, for all I know) of the thousands of colleges and universities in this country offer academic rigor and plenty of intellectual peers to top students. </p>
<p>I don’t know enough to agree with or refute the weaker claim that every single state in the US has a state school that offers rigor and plenty of highly prepared and motivated students. That’s probably true or nearly true. But there are about 4000 two- or four-year colleges in this country, and not all of them offer rigor and top students (particularly not the smaller ones among them). </p>
<p>As for safeties, a student realistically applying to MIT can find the rigor they want at RPI, but perhaps not the financial aid as RPI’s financial aid policies are significantly less generous than MIT’s. Even with merit aid worked in. WPI’s financial packages are typically worse. (My son applied to and was admitted to both last year with merit scholarships, so this is based on mainly one NMF’s personal experience, but also discussions with others that left us disappointed but not surprised by the outcomes.) It’s really hard finding a school that is both an admission AND financial safety AND that the student would LOVE attending. For my son the admission/financial safety was Drexel (also rolling admissions). He was interested in their co-op and game design programs, and they do have an honors program. There was a lot to like about Drexel, and they had a guaranteed full-tuition scholarship for NMFs (although they had really high fees that were not included, and very expensive room and board as well). But… he would have been a big fish, even in the honors program, and that wasn’t the experience he ultimately decided he was looking for (and willing to contribute more money and take loans for). He was very lucky to have a wide range of options. But, I do think he would have made Drexel work, and found opportunities to excel and thrive there, if it had been the only affordable place he was admitted, which made it a “real” safety. And he would have been pretty happy not to have to make any tough choices if it had come down to that ;-)</p>
<p>Agree with marysidney: *“For most really smart kids, the prospect of going to class with others who are also really smart is one of the great inducements for attending a rigorous school” *and with mathmomvt: “It’s really hard finding a school that is both an admission AND financial safety AND that the student would LOVE attending.”</p>
<p>MiamiDAP you keep talking like the University of Florida is typical of all colleges. It’s not. I agree that state universities for various reasons often attract a critical mass of bright motivated students, my neice a realistic prospect for Harvard ended up at U of New Hampshire, but there are lots of colleges that I can say with confidence are not good enough for my kids. Including both the small colleges in the town I live in. There is no way they would get anything like the education they are getting at the colleges they are attending or attended.</p>
<p>mathmomvt, makes a good point that if finances need to be part of the picture. For us, not eligible for financial aid, we had the opposite experience RPI and WPI were considerably less expensive than the other options and WPI provide a lot more money than RPI. My younger son got an even better offer from American. If my kids had ended up attending their safeties, they’d have had very nice merit aid, which definitely soothes some of the hurt of not going to the first choice!</p>
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<p>It probably isn’t even typical of state universities in Florida, as UF is the most selective of them (compared to others like FSU, UCF, USF, UNF, UWF, FAMU, FAU, FIU, FGCU, NCF).</p>
<p>Just to put this in perspective, let’s compare mathmomvt’s son’s well-thought-out even if not beloved safety with the students mentioned in the OP. </p>
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<p>Compare with this:</p>
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<p>Pretty clearly, the parents of those three college sophomores weren’t CC regulars. :(</p>
<p>I’ve always thought MiamiDAP’s D was at Miami U of Ohio - a good Ohio public.</p>
<p>Drexel was my S’s rolling admission safety with merit aid also. My kids haven’t LOVED their safeties, but could have gone there if necessary. Oldest D turned down full tuition at hers for less merit somewhere else.</p>
<p>Current HS senior here, going through the application process, and somewhat amused by the conversation in this thread. I’m very sorry for the people mentioned in the OP, as I have some friends who I fear are going to endure a similar fate but won’t accept the statistics due to their overabundant pride. </p>
<p>The reason I’m amused regards the way that everyone is bragging about their children, whether subtly or overtly. You are all great parents, your presence on this forum demonstrates that. However, NO ONE is a realistic prospect for Harvard, MIT, Yale, Stanford, etc. </p>
<p>I keep seeing “well my dearest son had the stats for [insert prestigious school name here], but chose ____ instead.” Stats are irrelevant. Really, they are. When there’s thirty thousand applicants, one third of which are equally statistically plausible for getting accepted into the school, stats only get you in the door. </p>
<p>The argument that has been had for six pages in this thread is trivial. In fact, the very situation is often a Catch-22. The kids who are truly brilliant enough to get into HYPSM are those who know that the statistics are not in their favor, and thus they apply to true safety schools that they like, and that they expect to attend when HYPSM reject them. Then, when their brilliance is recognized by HYPSM adcoms, they never end up having to use their safety that they were smart enough to find. </p>
<p>My point is this (and I apologize, verbosity and fatique tend to cause each other): the students in the OP (the ones in miserable state schools) were not smart enough to get into their dream Ivies in the first place. These children, and their parents for that matter, where terribly ignorant and deserved the fate that was bestowed upon them via multiple rejection letters. You all have the right idea when it comes to a safety, and who really cares if the kid LOVES it the second he walks on campus? If he “deserved” to go to a smarter school, then he should’ve been smart enough to find a proper safety. </p>
<p>And who cares about bachelor’s anyway? Grad school is all the rage now.</p>
<p>I’m guessing safeties are different if you are an engineer or pre-professional vs a liberal arts major.</p>
<p>From what I can gather engineering will be challenging no matter where you go. They will likely be the kids who need to study the most on any college campus. There will be different opportunities, but fluid dynamics is fluid dynamics. </p>
<p>However, there is no way someone can make me believe high point university will offer the same intellectual stimulation as say william & mary. You may enjoy the beach volleyball and ice cream trucks at hpu, but I can’t imagine a student of any academic rigor will be content over the long haul at a true blue safety.</p>
<p>And, I don’t know where you all live, but univ of md is no safety. With 28,000 applying for 4,000 spots with avg gpa of 4.0 and sat’s of 1300, it’s not a likely admit for many in state. </p>
<p>Any gc I’ve spoken to has said over and over, there is no such thing as a safety anymore, they don’t even use that lingo.</p>
<p>Well said mathmomvt, and yes mamabear I believe you are correct. MiamiDAP’s dau went to Miami of Ohio. But that said, UCBalumnus makes a good point. UF (not to be confused with U of Miami, a private school in FL) is far different from some of the other schools in the FL university system. In Gainesville FL alone, there is a rather gargantuan difference between UF and Santa Fe Community College (which offers 2 and 4 year degrees). This is most certainly true of the differing levels of schools in the state systems of most states. There are good publics and definitely some not-so-good publics. I agree that a statement claiming that top students can find rigorous courses at every school is an overstatement. Maybe, ideally, possibly, there might be a handful of challenging courses at best, but not likely enough to challenge a top student for their entire college career.</p>
<p>There have been lots and lots of threads about kids who turned down “higher ranked” or “better” schools for “lesser” schools. My younger s did this, but is still getting a fine education, and it was the right choice for him. But that said, the difference between a top 20 and a top 50 is, IMO, really moot and not what we are talking about here. In the long run, college choices should about fit, cost, the programs offered, etc.</p>
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<p>Hmmm, does SFCC feed a lot of transfer students to UF? If so, then wouldn’t the course rigor at SFCC’s lower division courses need to be kept high enough so that the transfer students don’t sink at UF?</p>
<p>Seems that it is conceivably possible that a community college has more rigorous lower division courses than the least selective four year state university, since the community college needs its courses to be transferable to any state university, including the flagship.</p>
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<p>I wouldn’t lump all of the obviously pre-professional majors (engineering, business, architecture, agriculture, art practice, music performance) together in this type of characterization. It does seem that, at the least selective four year schools, business has a reputation of being a low rigor major.</p>
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<p>I managed to find ONE school that was a safety for my S to which he would agree to apply. He certainly didn’t “love” it. But I’m quite sure that he would have enjoyed it, had he gone there.</p>
<p>A bigger problem was that their FA award turned out to be grossly inadequate. The “financial safety” aspect is huge. Unfortunately, for a high-statted kid with major FA need, the real financial safeties are often the deep-pockets schools with miniscule acceptance rates. If you live in a state with a good flagship and good FA for instate students, be thankful, is all I can say. (Luckily, things turned out well for S…)</p>
<p>ucbalumnus–
Take a gander at the “transfer to a university” link on Santa Fe CC’s website. [Transfer</a> | Academic Advisement Center | Santa Fe College | Gainesville, FL](<a href=“http://www.sfcollege.edu/advisement/index.php?section=transfer]Transfer”>http://www.sfcollege.edu/advisement/index.php?section=transfer) Notice a large State U in FL that is in Gainesville and has (had? 
) a great football team with orange and blue uniforms that is conspicuously ABSENT form the list of school links?</p>
<p>I think that Florida is missing on the list because it has its very own page. On the right of the page click on “Future UF Gator”.</p>
<p>LOL illyria. That link didnt work when I tried it.</p>
<p>Regardless, if one is trying to claim that the academic strength of SFCC equals UF, just because some students can transfer to UF after earning an AA from SFCC, I would not find that argument to have much merit.</p>
<p>Agreed … although I’m still trying to forgive you for not putting FSU on equal footing with UF.</p>
<p>Sorry, Illyria. That will never happen. Go gators! ;)</p>
<p>I think a lot of the angst students feel when they “have to go to a safety” is manufactured by parents. Any parent who communicates to their kid, explicitly or implicitly, that they are a failure if they don’t get into PrestigeU and have to “settle for” a low-life state flagship U (or, horrors of horrors, a non-flagship state school, or a “second tier” LAC) is setting the kid up for a disappointing college experience.</p>
<p>Sometimes it may be the parents, sometimes the grandparents <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parent-cafe/1175705-lost-my-dad-over-hpys.html?[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parent-cafe/1175705-lost-my-dad-over-hpys.html?</a> and more often the media <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/1250280-super-elite-credentials-matter-much-more-than-your-academic-record.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/1250280-super-elite-credentials-matter-much-more-than-your-academic-record.html</a>
Then of course there is US News, Kaplan/Newsweek, and other publications. No need to blame the parents.</p>
<p>^I think peers play a big role here.</p>