Really struggling to decide on going the PSEO route or Ap route. My daughter was really hoping to try to get into some competitive colleges for premed track. However she can also get two years free at the U of M dual credit for her last two years of high school. Those credits transfer to some colleges if she were to decide to transfer which as of right now she wants options. Just wondering if anyone has any suggestions on highly ranked colleges for premed major that would take PSEO? Can anyone that has gone this route advise? Thanks
I highly recommend attending the PSEO meeting held at the U of M, they do a good job of laying out benefits and risks.
I’m assuming you don’t know if your daughter has been accepted yet since the decisions come out in the spring. There are other colleges that also offer PSEO. Here are some thoughts I have:
Most colleges have policies in their websites regarding transfer credits . PSEO is essentially transfer credit since you attend classes at the U of M. Some schools might limit “dual enrollment” credits though. You might have fewer issues with this at the U since they aren’t dual enrollment offered at a high school program. You are like any other college student and it’s a U of M transcript. It’s does add some steps when applying to college because you sometimes have to send both your high school and official college transcripts.
If she really wants to do PSEO there are other colleges that participate (and are a little easier to get into than U of M).
Bethel has events for PSEO students (easier to find a social group) and it is easier to get into/register for needed classes.
Northwestern St Paul has lots of online classes which makes it easier if you want to do part high school and part PSEO.
Community colleges also offer PSEO. Easier to get classes, may be harder to transfer credits out of state.
Comments specific to U of M PSEO:
My daughter loves her classes, the engagement level and learning is so much higher than HS including AP classes she took.
Calculus etc.- is very challenging. As a 16 or 17 year old, you are with the U of M engineering and technology and science students it’s not unusual for average test scores to be 30 to 50 out of 100. This is a weeder class for engineering students and it’s no joke–a hit to that 4.0 HS GPA is likely.
Some publics in MN don’t give a weighted GPA bump for PSEO classes, which is frankly nuts, but just be aware of that if you think class rank matters.
Other classes - you will be at the mercy of TAs. Some are good. My daughter has had one that was really unfriendly and unhelpful and her grading was really different than the other TA in the same class. She also wouldn’t take the the time to explain things when kids asked questions. All of this to say, it’s typical big university college experience. Professors don’t know you are PSEO and don’t care. You are treated like any other U if M student. No retakes and no handholding.
You have to meet MN high school graduation requirements, which means English classes that are very difficult to get into because they fill up early. PSEO students enroll last at U of M and there is no guarantee you can get into these classes. Registration at the U happens in the summer when no public HS guidance counselors are available to answer questions. Know all the options before this year ends for classes that will HS graduation requirements. Possibly have a backup such as comm college PSEO if you can’t get those classes.
My daughter knows kids who do PSEO at Bethel and Concordia and really like it, consider applying to more than one so you have options.
Socially PSEO can be a little isolating at U of M. Freshmen tend to not include you socially and you are also not attending high school so you don’t see those friends daily. However, you also have the opportunity to meet kids from all over the state, country and world. Petty high school stuff can be left in the rear view mirror. It takes effort though to make friends at the U, and most kids are socializing in evenings with dorm friends.
All this to say, PSEO is an amazing opportunity. Frankly, looking back, transferring credits is only a small part of the factors that could potentially impact on your daughter.
Do lots of research. It’s an amazing program/opportunity . There are cautionary tales though, there is a reason they make it so hard to get into the program at the U. It’s requires being highly organized, hard working, motivated, and effort to make friends. You will need to buy a Upass and very warm boots and coat. One of those required English classes might be only available on St. Paul campus and the walk over Washington Ave bridge is a cold one to get to West Bank. Parking is far from classes, consider your commuter bus in. Which means lots of study time at the library waiting for one of the buses home if you live in a suburb.
My oldest graduated high school in 2018 and did two years of all dual enrollment classes (also on a college campus with all college students etc). What I did before she started was call tons of college admissions in state, out of state public and private schools including top schools and asked what they thought of dual enrollment. Basically you need to look at each college individually since they all do things there own way. In general we found dual enrollment classes are looked upon very favorably for admissions and have become more and more common.
In terms of being useful for college in terms of the credits that varies greatly - in some schools you will not get credit no matter how well you do, some give credit for specific classes. Sometimes you get credit for a class as a free elective but that is never actually needed. The more basic the class is the more apt it is to transfer so say intro to environmental science will transfer easier than environmental science of the Mississippi River. Sometimes getting credit for say a math class doesn’t exempt you from a gen ed math class just starts you at a higher level. Honestly you need to look at colleges individually and not make assumptions. Also most colleges will not count the gpa earned in high school dual enrollment towards your bachelor’ degree though if you continue in the same school system they might. However when applying to med school all of your high school dual enrollment classes need to be included so the school will see all your grades.
Dual Enrollment has its pros and cons and works out well for some students and may not be for all students. For my daughter she graduated with her Bachelor’s degree in 3 years instead of 4 which was a nice financial savings. She was able to get a double degree, do an internship, and take two graduate classes for free while an undergrad. Honestly she could have graduated with her Bachelor’s in 2 years if we pushed it and she only got 1 degree but I also wanted her to have time for some fun in college. If it were not for covid I think she would have loved 4 years though financially just 3 years was nice. Some people may use those credits to do fewer classes a semester vs graduate early - there is no right/wrong.
Our high school allows full time dual enrollment students to participate in any extra curricular activies, eat lunch at school if it fits their schedule etc. They can also do college extra curriculars (although on rare occasion you might have to be 18). Occasionally the high school requires full time dual enrollment students to paricipate in high school meetings - such as they are included with seniors for talks about applying to college, financial aid etc. A high school ELA teacher will help if asked to review say an essay for college even if the student isn’t taking English at high school and it is also possible to ask a college English professor or tutoring center to look over stuff - kind of the best of both worlds at times. I will say my daughter got full credit at her 4 year college but not everything really helped but her friend chose a college where things taken in high school dual enrollment didn’t count if needed for high school graduation. For instance if you took college writing as a dual enrollement student and didn’t have your 4 years of high school English they would’t count that or if you took Calculus 1 in dual enrollment but only had 3 high school math credits that wouldn’t count either. The most important thing is to look at each college invidually for its policies but don’t think of it as say top schools in general.
If PSEO courses are actual college courses at a four year university, then medical schools will accept them (and all college courses will be included in GPA for applying to medical school). Community college courses, online courses, “college in the high school” courses, AP credit would be more problematic for medical school course requirements.
The main concern would be if a university attended does not accept them for placement into higher level courses or fulfilling requirements, forcing repeats that looks bad for medical school applications.
Also pre-med is not generally a major. Pre-med students can do almost any major along with their pre-med course requirements.