pursuing a new degree after 100k debt for unfinished RISD degree: a cautionary tale

College Majors Visual Arts and Film Majors
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<p>dakini, I’m glad you spoke up. As I’ve written in other posts, my daughter is one of these Juliete Aristides-type successful figurative artists, only younger. Her work sells well. She did not attend college, but studied at the Florence ateliers for five years. She has now started giving demonstrations as a guest artist at US community colleges. This summer she will start teaching several state-level courses in two different states. She will teach high school and college art teachers drawing skills, which is part of their mandatory continuing education. Teaching college professors will not make her rich. Her painting sales will continue to be her main source of income.</p>

<p>Do not spend a lot of money on an art education. My daughter’s education in Italy cost less than attending an in-state college.</p>

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<p>Woodwinds,</p>

<p>When I was looking at art schools there were only two ateliers available- this was pre-internet and I did not know they existed nor what they were. I ended up going to the wretched Boston Museum School ( I thought of the great Boston School of painters- my mistake.) The teacher rarely showed up for class- they were too busy doing their own thing. Our ‘portrait class’ consisted of a model in a pink dress sitting in a chair. No instruction- no nothing, No instructors. We were just expected to soldier on. We were not told how to mix colors, how to do sight size or relative size. The school is the same today- probably worse.</p>

<p>I have seen the RISD student figure drawing- I was better as a high school sophomore- they look like grade school scribbles.</p>

<p>I use live models for my work- some RISD students. One girl’s work was awful (they all were)- and she told me that many kids go there do not want instruction- they complain saying that they came there to ‘express themselves’.</p>

<p>Your daughter is very lucky, but many public universities will not allow you to teach unless you have a degree- usually a masters- private schools like RISD will.</p>

<p>The downside of an Atelier is the lack of Liberal Arts. I was fortunate enough to have gone to a private prep school- the Loomis-Chafee School. It was classical, rigorous and tough. we carried 6 majors a year including two languages- many of my peers skipped their first year of college. An artist must have an understanding of philosophy, literature, civics, history etc- her/ his culture- not just picture making.</p>

<p>Also, one of the problems with the Ateliers is the rigidity, many of the students come out looking the same, that 19th century academic style with lots of brown chiaroscuro.</p>

<p>However, the best are a great alternative to the wretched state of most scandalously overpriced art schools today. They do teach the foundations and I am looking forward to some of the more gifted and brave ones breaking the mold. They will have the skills to do so. Matisse and Picasso had these skills.</p>

<p>The standard art schools are more focused on how to get into a gallery, what tricks work best- fine if yours does- but if you don’t catch on you are left paying off tens of thousands of dollars on a clerk’s wage. I know a kid from the illustration department who is still selling art supplies at RISD 15 years after he graduated.</p>

<p>I am glad your daughter is doing so well, she must be very hard working, talented and a total joy to her mother- like I was!
And she did’t bankrupt you!</p>

<p>DON’T GET INTO ART SCHOOL DEBT- no art school is worth it- period. I started my art career not owing a penny- I had well-to-do parents- that’s the trick- plus I dropped out as I saw how worthless it was.Basquiat did not go to art school and his paintings are worth millions.</p>

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<p>dakini, I’m glad you got out of a school that didn’t work for you, but did well in the art world anyway. What you describe at the Boston Museum school is just amazing. How could an instructor tell students to paint a model, without providing instruction?</p>

<p>It is true that the ateliers just teach the basics of art and are rigid in ther training. This is what my daughter thought was so good about it; the good artists are the ones who stuck with it. One must be very disciplined and focused before starting atelier training. Many students go there for one year, don’t work too hard at it, and come out of it so-so. My daughter has also taught courses at the Florence ateliers, and she sees great differences between those who really work on their technique and those who don’t. Ateliers are similar to medical school in the discipline; the best students study and work at it 7 days a week, more than 10 hours a day.</p>

<p>I don’t think that art school or an atelier can teach you to be creative. that comes from the person him/herself. and that’s also why one should be well-rounded in education, as you point out. Although my daughter started training in Italy when she was 17, she had taken 7 AP courses, and she has continued to listen–while she paints–to the classics and all kinds of literature. She is considered an art history expert. She studied anatomy for years. One can learn a lot by self study if one is motivated. She began to paint in her own style only after leaving the ateliers. She is very grateful for their rigid technical training, and would not be where she is today without it. Her painting career allows her to go to Europe for several months per year, where she travels around several countries, visiting and studying the works at museums and churches. So–her knowledge of art history and culture grows every year.</p>

<p>As for galleries–I think they are on their way out, or are in decline. Many are struggling to keep afloat. My daughter tried one major gallery for two years but has just pulled out. They now want more than 50% commission and it’s not worth it to her, since she easily sells her work herself with her own marketing. She will continue to send a few works out to selected shows, but does not intend on relying on galleries to make a living.</p>

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<p>Woodwinds,</p>

<p>I do have to agree with you that the structure in the Ateliers is amazing and something many students today would probably resent. It takes a long time to learn how to draw properly. I know- I have suffered because of lack of exposure to proper training. It has taken years and years to get to a point I should have been decades ago.</p>

<p>Degas, Matisse and Picasso are exemplars of proper classical training. As the old saw goes- you can’t break the rules until you know what they are. </p>

<p>I rather like PAFA because it is one of the few schools that offer and have never dropped the classical core training.
<a href=“http://www.pafa.edu/programs/PAFA-BFA/51/”>http://www.pafa.edu/programs/PAFA-BFA/51/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Eric Fischl, though he is well known has never really learned to draw well and the respected critic Jed Perl has called him out on that. He went to CalArts. His first figurative class consisted of two nude models crying in the corner while the naked class threw buckets of paint at each other. CalArts is right up there with RISD with tuition costs. The focus at CalArts is how to con your way into a gallery- if you misfire you are stuck with debt. I followed one graduate who actually had a mention in the New York Times as she faded from view.</p>

<p>If you want to be a bad boy artist follow the example of Basquiat- hopefully without drug
use. <a href=“Real Estate”>Real Estate;

<p>Cezanne, whose art is one of the foundations of modernism, had minimal training- Manet dropped out of Couture’s atelier but had an excellent foundation.</p>

<p>If you are bent on classical figurative work- you cannot beat an atelier- I am sure you may be referring to the Angel Academy. It is very hard to do which is why many contemporary artists denigrate it- they simply are unequipped to do it.</p>

<p>There are so many ways to learn- without incurring crippling debt. </p>

<p>The gallery scene is impossible- the galleries will ask you if they can discount it 10% for a favored customer or one they would like to snag. The artist would be lucky to make $3500 on a $10,000 painting- often less. Try paying your student debt on that!</p>

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<p>I just saw this in the Huffington post- read and weep! This is the reality not just one unusual example.
DON’T CRIPPLE YOURSELF WITH ART SCHOOL DEBT!</p>

<p>Dear Steve,</p>

<p>Attended the Art Institute of Ft. Lauderdale, FL for game art/illustration from 2004 to 2006, transferred to the Art Institute of Philadelphia, PA for animation, from 2006 to 2007, transferred to the Pennsylvania Academy of the Fine Arts in 2007 and graduated in 2012 with a certificate in painting.</p>

<p>I have a total of $114,113.50 of debt and absolutely do not have the funds to pay. I am a painter who cannot support myself on painting alone. I make on average $200.00 a month from paintings and I work 2 under the table jobs (8.00 an hour) just to make rent. I can’t afford to eat so I take leftovers from my restaurant job.</p>

<p>My monthly minimum requirements are close to $2,700.00. I’ve gone into forbearance and have also tried to negotiate a lower monthly payment of $100.00 a month but Sallie Mae has refused and said that it was impossible.</p>

<p>I have accepted that I probably will be paying for this debt until I die and I am willing to make payments as long as I can cover my most basic living expenses. I am the child of an immigrant and one of the first in my family to complete college, so, my relatives have no advice.</p>

<p>I am starting to regret ever going to college because I am more in debt and poorer than any of my relatives. It just doesn’t make any sense. I can’t get a job being a painter because there are no jobs for that.</p>

<p>I can’t afford painting supplies and now that I work everyday, I have no time to create paintings, which are lowering my already meager income from them. I can’t go back to school because of the debt so there is no hope in getting a career established.</p>

<p>Is there anything I can do about this?</p>

<p>James</p>

<p>The article:
<a href=“I Got an Art Certificate and Student Loans I Will Never Be Able to Afford | HuffPost Impact”>HuffPost - Breaking News, U.S. and World News | HuffPost;

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<p>The Huffington Post article is very sad. The student might have been able to make a career out of art–he says he does sell some work–but he doesn’t have a chance because of his loans. When starting out an enterpreneurial career, an artist needs to be free to explore, to work all day at it. The student James needs to find the right bankruptcy lawyer.</p>

<p>My daughter has the philosophy that an aspiring artist–in any field of art–should be able to sell their craft while already in school. I believe that various fields of art lend themselves to this–gaming, and certainly classical realistic art. I’m not an artist myself so I don’t know–but there are other fields as well where students are earning money from their art while going to school, and paying their tuition with it. </p>

<p>I’ve always felt that this is a good reality check in the arts. I used to tell my daughters–aspiring in art and music–that if they couldn’t make money in their craft by the time they were 18, they were not good enough at it to study it in college, and to choose another field. It made them focus on what the marketplace would buy–and we know that changes.</p>

<p>A successful artist also needs a supportive family. Many gallery owners are shysters and my daughter at age 18 was too young to deal with some of the shenanigans. I pulled her out of a small gallery when she was 20, and am currently doing the same for her at the big gallery I mentioned earlier, even though she is now 26. Artists need to work all day at their craft–not spend half the day fighting their galleries-- and gallery owners take advantage of this situation. Most artists can’t afford attorneys, and even volunteer lawyers for the arts won’t help an artist who has art out of state. </p>

<p>Then there is all the copyright infringement that goes on.</p>

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<p>Woodwinds,</p>

<p>You cannot declare bankruptcy with student loans- the only way out is to wait for legislation sponsored by Massachusetts senator Elizabeth Warren to reduce the interest rate. The other alternative is to flee the country, which some have done.</p>

<p>Yes art is something you have to work at- but your daughter is lucky to have been able to sell stuff at an early age- art takes along time to master- the Japanese don’t considered that you have mastered something unless you have studied and practiced for at least 10 years.</p>

<p>I do think it is rare to be able to sell your work at 18- I really don’t know of any who have- excepting at very low prices.</p>

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<p>Woodwinds,</p>

<p>I may have to take what I said back- Teresa Oaxaca is kicking some butt of the classical realism scene- she is all over the place- she is in her early twenties with an extensive art background. I wish these kids could see what a really good art education can do. She went to the Florence Academy- is debt free and selling. Her stuff is very fresh and free-wheeling. Take a look kids- she has a Vimeo. Google her. Great stuff!
<a href=“http://www.teresaoaxaca.com/”>http://www.teresaoaxaca.com/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>The girl has real talent- you can’t fake this stuff.</p>

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<p>You make a lot of really good points. Debt is slavery. Without a doubt.</p>

<p>Art is a passion though and I wouldn’t discourage anyone from pursuing it full time but I believe one should know how hard it is to make a living at it. It’s really hard work and a constant hustle. It can be done though and breaking though can be a blessing.</p>

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<p>I am sorry that you have had the difficulty that you have had. Please don’t think, though, that this is just about art school. I want to share the other side of the coin. I loved art and was passionate about it. I was, however, convinced by my guidance counselor that because of my high grades and SAT scores that I should apply to liberal art colleges - I graduated without too much debt from Hamilton (because of scholarships.) I was, however, lost for a few years, because I did not have enough training in what I loved, art. I moved to Boston and took some classes at Mass Art, which is a more affordable state art school, and worked as a waitress to put myself through. I graduated with a second undergraduate degree in art education. I have been happily creating and teaching for years now. My husband went to Mass Art and is self employed as a pre-production commercial artist. It is challenging at times, and he has a part time job to help make ends meet. We live in an affluent town (because of the schools) and live in a small house that we almost own. I am glad that I went back to art school. I am also glad that I did not take on a tremendous amount of debt. I agree with frugaldoctor, that your comments are based more on the caution of acquiring too much debt. Art schools do cost a lot, but there are some excellent ones out there (VCU Arts comes to mind) which are not so expensive. </p>

<p>I am so very glad that I studied art, and am very glad to be involved in art for my living. Everybody makes choices on how to spend their money. You are right to caution 18 year olds to look carefully at their debt - but the same could be said for any school. My son turned down his first choice after we went through the numbers with him - he instead went to a school which offered a lot of aid. It costs almost the same as the in state university. He loves where he is going.</p>

<p>I would recommend to all those students you are cautioning; 1) research which colleges will meet your educational needs; 2) apply to as many as you can afford to apply to (we found that the financial aid offer spread was significant); 3) If you need aid, don’t apply early action/early decision - I have heard plenty of stories, my son’s included - the school he applied early action to gave very little financial aid. When you have received your decisions including the financial aid packages, look through them, maybe make an Excel spreadsheet. Make sure you use some online debt calculators to compare what you will be paying when you graduate. Make sure to also look at the cost per month of local rents and imagine yourself in a used $15,000 car and use a calculator to see what that looks like for after you graduate, so give you an idea on how much things cost. Then choose.</p>

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<p>I got into a conversation with someone that trashed art school and the entire profession of art as being of no value and artists as “never working a day in their lives. At least not as we know work. What they call work, we call fun.”</p>

<p>Having an S in art school, I decided not to say anything. Then, this person got specific and started talking about her sister who attended RISD, then pursued sculpting and achieving success such that her sculptures sold for $5k to $15k. Then her sister got into painting and was successful, she also married a rich guy and now she says her sister, who never worked a day in her life, now has to figure what to do now that her husband is ill. They are in their mid-sixties.</p>

<p>Her antipathy toward artists, I believe, is displaced anger and jealousy. It’s sounds like her sister had a good run as an artist for about the first 40 years. </p>

<p>A lot of people don’t comprehend the art profession. I’ve been researching it along with my S for years so I can guide him and I admit that I don’t understand it fully as a career. It’s not a job, it’s a risky, entrepreneurial venture, a passion and expression of human thought & creativity.</p>

<p>I was motivating my S recently to consider how he can make a living off ideas that flow from his head and how each of those ideas is original & never before seen which gives it value. I work in a huge corporation. When I go, I will be easily replaced and quickly forgotten. I’ve learned to admire successful artist because they dare to occupy a space in this world that will be forever left void when they cease to be. To many, that matters more than money.</p>

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<p>I am going to try to make this brief. I am no expert. I am a woman in a similar difficult situation. But, I have done a ton of research online for several years and this is the best info. I have found so far. 15 steps.

  1. Computer Science /Software development/Computer Engineering would have been a better/more MARKETABLE DEGREE. Many creative people like musicians (who can read music notes/code) earn such a degree…many musicians also choose to get accounting degrees…many visual artists who are also talented in music might also like math and be able to earn an accounting degree too.
  2. LEARN A TRADE - i would NOT advise you to spend any money on earning a more marketable degree. - get an employer to pay for it instead. GET PAID TO LEARN. you could go into carpentry right now …if you always plan before you act/are not clumsy/are very careful become an electrician - but DO NOT become an electrician if you tend to do clumsy things…it could cost you your life…zap! plumbing can be dirty…but it pays well. welding can damage vision but one should take proper precautions…fire alarm technician, truck driver, mechanic, chef, beauty industry like makeup consultant, hvac, etc. i read that women tend to get discriminated in the trades…but i used to help my dad do construction when i was a girl and i learned that you should be tough or try to fit in as much as possible(like one would in the military)…don’t expect special treatment and don’t give up on finding work or employing yourself.
  3. get multiple legitimate STREAMS OF INCOME…like sell art, babysit, nanny, blogging/ freelancing, bartending…some people make 40k or more bartending.
    4)SALES - real estate sales (sell pretty homes), technology sales (sell cool gadgets), be a fundraiser…if you are an idealist type artist you can sell what you love/are willing to stand up for.
    5)ENTREPRENEUR - maybe you can’t get loans to start a business due to debt…but you can try to save $$ to invest in a cheap business yourself ie. childcare, dog walking in the inner city, photography, lawn care, etc. or raise money to start a non profit.
  4. start a SUPPORT group. (not a gang! lol!)…find other students in a similar situation,and find a way to help each other…ie multiple roommates, pooling resources to start a business (preferably do this with those who are friends/who do not have a criminal background, or who share interests), share meals, etc.
    7)change the way you think about it. think about it as owing money on a home you bought. although it is difficult to file bankruptcy…it isn’t always impossible. also, if you for example lost your job, or suddenly got pregnant or ended up as a single parent you would probably work two jobs if possible to pay. we all can only do what we can to pay.
  5. i am in the exact opposite situation. i was a talented artist,musician, dancer, singer, song writer, poet, etc when I was a child (gifted/multi-talented). But my parents and other family members steered me in the direction of becoming a doctor instead. i tried, but it was too hard to become one/could not pass some courses 3rd year in a professional program, and so now i have about as much debt as you with only a bachelors/gateway degree rather than a doctorate.
    9)don’t get too down on yourself. people go into debt for various reasons whether they pursue their passion or not. pursuing one’s passion could definitely send anyone to the poor house. also, many people who get a terminal illness go into more debt than most students. be grateful for what you still have, keep the right priorities in life and remember your values. some people preach that if you pursue your passion, things will work out, but there are no guarantees in life. you can only increase the probability that something will work out…that is all. for example, i recently tried to correct the original path i went on. i decided to work in the beauty industry rather than medicine to make use of some of my creativity. i loved the work…but it paid almost nothing, and many other factors made it the worst fit ever…so it did not work out.
    10)all we can do is try our best, no matter what we do. if something does not work out, we can choose another path…just don’t take on anymore debt/or too much debt on any more paths in the future. whatever you do…choose the path where you will take some risks, but where there will not be too many deal breakers / devastating consequences if things do not work out.
    11)consider working your way up in a large company where your talents shine if possible. assistant manager training programs like enterprise rent a car has are great…though some say the work is challenging plus low pay but it is a start. costco pays well.
  6. if you are an idealist - stop trying too hard to please others. you cannot please everyone. many of my family members practically disowned me because i failed…but their love was only conditional anyway. don’t make anyone or anything your idol. only idolize true love/God.
  7. use your creativity to think outside of the box but always do your research and have realistic solutions to your financial dilemma. and don’t procrastinate. use a daily planner/get organized because many artists tend to be disorganized and you will need exceptional organization skills to get out of your predicament!
  8. do not loose your self esteem - take good, humble pride in yourself. exercise, eat healthy, do not engage in risky harmful behaviors, do not spend time with people who are controlling (please, especially women, do not waste time with a controlling person - (many women are raised to be people pleasers - but you could be compromising your dignity and self worth by doing this with a controlling person)), and or with people who are bad company.controlling is not loving. In other words take good care of yourself because every little good thing that you give yourself counts and you cannot afford to make your situation worse by making additional poor choices.
  9. take any good job that pays well so you can afford to do the things that you love or want to do.</p>
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<p>Add to step 2) nursing is another trade one could get into - get an RN - some nursing homes pay for school. Add to step 14) I repeat - CONTROLLING IS NOT LOVING. love is unconditional and gives us free will and joy. </p>

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<p>several more things to add…quickly. 1) there are debt forgiveness programs out there, offered by employers, gov’t, etc. 2) also, if you can’t get a good job here there are other countries where you can with or without job related experience. also,3) poverty can alienate anyone. i personally don’t get calls from family or friends anymore. my family wanted a boy and a doctor, not a girl and a multi-gifted/blessed artist. if i get a call it is because i left a message and they are calling me back as a duty. poverty can alienate anyone…but don’t alienate yourself. volunteer to get experience (couple of hours). 4)also, there are religious institutions that will accept you into their “family”. don’t establish relationships with controlling people or bad company. 5)i am so grateful for everything that happened in my past, because it helped me to become a better critical thinker…and a more well rounded, spiritually grounded person, who has beed 'adopted" into a religious institution’s family.
6)some people cannot get out of poverty…for example those in third world countries, those in the inner city can also be trapped in extreme poverty and debt…7)so i say just try the best that you can to get out of or stay out of extreme poverty and when you do…be grateful to not be too poor/almost in, or in middleclass, because it could be worse as many other people in this country and elsewhere are in worse financial predicaments.
8) in this society…those that are severely left brained dominant are typically offered more rewards by schools and employers more so than those who are more severely right brained - although all of us are basically whole brained…but those more right brained than left are more able to think outside the box to find solutions to all of this…like thinking about starting a business/original idea that becomes extremely lucrative…that someday someone more left brained might own (which can happen)…but artists are almost always the most original thinkers/originators…so we as artists/musicians or multi-talented artists/musicians/comedians (like) me must survive to create a (right brain dom./ left brain dom. /whole brain dom.) - balance in society.</p>