<p>Not sure where I stand on this debate…
Here’s my two sense (haha) yo:</p>
<p>Granted there are indeed some minority races with experiences “equivalent” to those of their fellow white brethren, but for the most part, due to the structure of our society it is improbable to assume that one’s race has an equal implication on how one is judged. I have felt that way before as African-American worried about the backlash of Affirmative Action Accusations. I wanted to omit my race believing that college admissions officers would make narrow-sighted judgments about the struggles I am “supposed” to have gone through. I was under the false impression that the starting line for all Americans is the same. It most certainly is not. Several unsung URMs are denied all the time, because being a black, gay, poor, etc, is not “good” enough. This is why, this whole “hook” “unhooked” nonsense is just plain stupid. HYPS are not University of Michigan 20+ years ago, there is no point system/overt hierarchy. There are experiences one has that shape one’s outlook on life and regrettably inner and external perceptions of one’s race can profoundly impact such experiences. Race is/was never something I gave much thought to, until I realized that even if you do not think your race will have you be judged, others will look at you differently, and those different glances and preconceived notions will influence your sense of authenticity in your race. The effect whether exaggerated or diminished, still exists. Your race, your sexuality, etc, but especially your race is often what others make of it.</p>
<p>@southeasttitan- if your argument is that blacks and hispanics are at a “disadvantage” because they are subjected to racism, then you must also believe that asians are subjected to the same type of racism, yes? If you think this type of racial persecution exists, then what makes you think asians aren’t also victims? yet asians are the ones at EVEN MORE DISADVANTAGE when it comes to college admissions. justify that for me, please</p>
<p>Even though I am not a strong proponent of affirmative action i must mention that is undeniably true. Even at yale when i go to walk in New Haven people look at me as if I am going to steal, and it is only when I have my yale attire on that I am treated the same as the white customers at the stores. I come from a middle-class background and went to a good high school so no I didn’t meet the “socioeconomic” distinction for affirmative action, but what white students and others fail to realize is that race from minorities impacts them regardless of their income level.</p>
<p>And to be honest I think the largest beneficiaries of diversity in higher education are the minorities themselves. In my high school I was the only black person in the top 10% of my class and in some classes I would be the only black person, and it does have an impact on people.</p>
<p>Take for instance when I was at state competitions for speech out of the top 20 speakers in my state I was the only black person. The same was true for science fair and that was the topic of my essay.</p>
<p>and mifune- you’re argument has been extremely logical. the people who are attacking you are taking your words out of context and misconstruing the point of your argument. also this is a very good point that you made:
no one has yet to mention this, but I agree. socioeconomic affirmative action is justified; RACIAL affirmative action is not. tell me this- at what disadvantage is an african american student whose parents are wealthy? (this description fits 75% of the african american students at my school. one of my best friends is black and she drives a freaking mercedes) these black students are at no socioeconomic disadvantage; their standards for college admissions should thus not be lowered!</p>
<p>The racism that Asians experience is mostly related to people thinking they are smart and want to be engineers or doctors. I wish this was the type of racism that blacks had to experience!</p>
<p>Has the United States enslaved Asians or killed off more than 90% of their population? No. Do they face racism? Yes. Is it at all similar to or at the level of that experienced by African Americans? No. Is it reflected in their academic performance? No. Asians have historically been able to find success in this country in ways that African Americans and native Americans haven’t.</p>
<p>The entirety of college admissions is based on what students will be the best for the school. Often times that is an academic metric because schools want students who will go on to become prominent in their fields. At the top when they have a surplus of academic superstars they look at extracurriculars the best writers, the best debaters, or the best researchers. </p>
<p>What so many fail to realize is that colleges are not admitting minority students because they feel some altruistic notion of social responsibility but rather are admitting them because minority students from top schools WILL go on to be extraordinarily successful. Look at Sonia Sotomayor, if you think Princeton is not gaining prestige then you would be foolish, the same is true for Michele Obama. </p>
<p>In fact if any of you actually come to Yale you will not that as early as the 1960’s secret societies started accepting minorities and even now there are certain spots reserved at Scroll and Key, Mace and Chain, and Berzelius or Wolf’s Head for minority students. Why? Because they know those students are going to go on and accomplish something amazing.</p>
<p>The same logic holds for why Yale has such an amazing financial aid program, I certainly know 100% that I am going to give back to Yale because they enabled me to get an amazing education. The selection process at top schools is ENTIRELY predicated on who will make the institution better, Yale is self-interested first and foremost.</p>
<p>Don’t blame the Quad blame Yale. I am happy for the Quad and I wish them success. Pure publicity stunt on Yale’s part. This is a very strategic and opportunistic move by Yale to look good in front of the black elites. Yale is probably looking for some TARP fund aka research grant from the Obama administration. You see, their endowment fund need replenishment after the big financial debacle. I am sure Harvard and Princeton are now comtemplating doing the same for the Quad. Stay tune.</p>
<p>Why must we compensate for previous social misconduct by instituting new ones? The past is the past. We must use it to prevent further discrimination rather than using it to replace old wrongs with new wrongs.</p>
<p>Affirmative action works to devalue the accomplishments of racial minorities which is deeply sad for those that were admitted on the basis of merit. It devalues the accomplishments of those chosen for acceptance into positions and thus eliminates all advantages and renders the practice as wholly unproductive. It creates a type of glass ceiling which cannot be overcome. Further, as NearL is displaying through his ad hominem arguments, affirmative actions serves to hinder any type of conciliated efforts.</p>
<p>Moreover, it encourages those to identify themselves as disadvantaged even when they are not. The practice of identifying yourself from a “disadvantaged” background is becoming continually more popular since many feel that if others use racial background as an unfair advantage, they have the full right to do the same and become the beneficiaries of the policy’s benefits.</p>
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<p>You are stereotyping. All white students are not rich and all minority families are not poor; my family earns only $40,000 per year. In fact, most minority students at selective private universities clearly supersede the average income.</p>
<p>In essence, affirmative action serves to benefit those who are the most privileged within minority groups at the expense of those who come from disadvantaged backgrounds within the majority groups (lower-class whites and Asians).</p>
<p>It inevitably results in net losses to society and only works to increase the antagonism towards preferred groups who arrogantly defend it since it wrongfully benefits their own interests.</p>
<p>I asked you if you were affiliated with HYPS because you have a warped view of what the average Yalie is like. The quadruplets are by no means out of their depth at Yale. They’re average. Based on the article, their scores are good - a lot of Yalies only get an 800 on one section, indeed, a quarter or more get an 800 on either section, but many don’t get a perfect score on either. They had leadership positions in some of their extracurriculars. One was a National Merit Finalist. They’re legitimate admits. I know several whites and Asians that are not nearly as qualified as they are.</p>
<p>Sure, they have a hook, being black. But if you know enough Yalies or Crimsons, you know that almost everyone that’s admitted has a hook, and oftentimes that hook is something you’re born with, or a rare opportunity that you were given and made the most of.</p>
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<p>It’s based on what the college wants. It’s that simple. What else can it be based on if nothing guarantees admission? </p>
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<p>Indeed, I can’t. I know it to be true. What you do not seem to grasp is that deserving is not an objective judgement, and that there are white students that aren’t admitted that are more ‘deserving’ than many of those that are. This little fact negates the crux of your argument - that these black students are somehow undeserving because more ‘deserving’ white students are rejected.</p>
<p>That you cannot grasp this simple concept just shows your bigotry.</p>
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<p>Discriminatory isn’t a synonym for bad.</p>
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<p>Differences between races do exist. The average black student has fewer educational opportunities than whites. Fact. Blacks were denied any socioeconomic advancement in the century preceding slavery. Fact. If blacks are to be represented in fields that they were traditionally denied access to, they would need some sort of help because employment is hardly based on merit. In fact, most jobs are given to people that are somehow associated with someone with influence on hiring decisions. Fact.</p>
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<p>Yes. I do believe that Native Americans should receive reparations, despite the fact that living Native Americans were not the target of genocide. I do think that they should continue to receive free tuition at every public university and would gladly support a bill that included the total COA for public universities as well.</p>
<p>But I guess, I’m not thinking they should receive benefits because of the color of their skin. I suppose I’m just paying attention to historical legacies and their continuing affects on Native Americans today.</p>
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<p>Being black is advantageous for applying to some 10% of universities and hiring at already extremely competitive jobs. Being white is advantageous at every other step of life. You’re likely to be born better off and no one will ever question your ability unless its warranted. They won’t do it even when it is!</p>
<p>Sure, we could argue that the idea that blacks aren’t qualified for anything other that doesn’t require a ball, mop or race track is new, but anyone with any familiarity with race-relations in America knows that it’s not. The fact of the matter is this: America has well-refined racial myths that continue to haunt American citizens today, even in the wake of its first black president.</p>
<p>And if you can’t dig that your whole perspective is wack :-)</p>
<p>Because people of certain groups are in the situation they are in because of past discrimination. It is easy for you to say the past is the past because your ancestors were not literally barred from higher attainment. Who knows, maybe if colleges and America did not for years have policies that discriminated against blacks then blacks and whites and Asians would be on the same field.</p>
<p>But it is inherently short sighted to say the past is the past. The very reason affirmative action is not racism as so many would like to contend, is that was a policy initially implemented to correct for the racism of the past.</p>
<p>The past is the past for you. The past is always the past for the aggressor when he incurs no costs or harm for his action. However for the victim, the past is a continual reality. African-Americans are still recovering from centuries of slavery and a century of concerted efforts to stop their assimilation.</p>
<p>This argument holds little weight. After I was accepted the first thing every one of my teachers said was literally “I am not surprised” the only people who belittle the accomplishments of others are people like you.</p>
<p>Minorities who worked hard and have the stats to get into HYP do get in point blank and they thrive and will have succesful lives. </p>
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<p>You are absolutely wrong. I can tell you without a doubt that being low income gives you an advantage to getting into Yale. Just as coming from a school with few resources does.</p>
<p>If you look through the threads of past years, those with lower incomes were accepted at higher rates than their wealthier counterparts.</p>
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<p>On this one you are flat out wrong. Some of the most ardent opponents of Affirmative Action are black, and even underwent political action to eliminate the practice. A prime example is Ward Connerly.</p>
<p>Someone’s intimidated. Don’t try and disregard my arguments with claims of ad hominems on my part. You’re arguments aren’t quite up to snuff and I’m trying to show you why. It’ll help you in the future!</p>
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<p>How so? Does going to Exeter devalue the accomplishments of Yalies from Exeter because Exeter is a huge feeder school for Yale? Does legacy status devalue the accomplishments of legacy admits? Does being rich devalue the accomplishments of rich kids because they had greater educational opportunities?</p>
<p>The idea that blacks are being immoral by taking advantage of AA is absolutely ridiculous. No one makes this argument for any other advantages. But somehow, blacks are supposed to feel guilty for taking advantage of the only advantage they’ve got. But rich kids, legacies, kids from feeder schools, etc., all get a free pass.</p>
<p>I don’t want to post on this thread because I would be accepting some of these comments as legitimate; skimming through this for five minutes is too much BS for one to have to handle. Most of you all don’t know the history behind AA, the structural reasons behind the achievement gap, research done on why AA may be damaging, etc., so commenting on either side with “eloquent” statements is just a battle of shouts. </p>
<p>Anyway. To those who claimed this is was publicity stunt. I recall reading on the NYTimes that they picked up this story from a local newspaper. Local newspapers generally publish acceptances of students in their towns or neighborhoods. A NYTimes journalist picked up on the story and decided to pursue it. Were it a publicity stunt, the Times would have been contacted directly or wouldn’t have included the a local newspaper as their original source. Schools like Yale don’t do publicity stunts, and don’t play with the people they accept based on anything other than their achievements. Let me know after you work as or with a senior admissions officer for a few years.</p>
<p>Just quoting because this needs to be read. Again.</p>
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<p>This, however:</p>
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<p>Oh, really? Wow, thanks for the info.</p>
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<p>Pffft, sources please? And anyway, since when does income prevent racism? </p>
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<p>This is such a baseless joke I’m not going to even try to respond to it. Seriously. I’m really done with you and your ignorance–because that’s what it is. Ignorance. And perhaps a tinge of envy?</p>
<p>This thread started off really interesting with some good discussions being banded around. Then it started getting tiresome. Now it’s just ridiculous.</p>
<p>I just don’t understand how any seventeen year old kid can question Yale’s motives for doing anything. Because on a grand scale, you don’t know anything. None of us know anything. You’re not really even commenting on the actual story anymore, you’re just trying to prove your own insistence that you’re more qualified to give your opinion than everyone else.</p>
<p>The fact is, the point Yale is making about this with the publicity is that they’re quadruplets. The story isn’t YALE ADMITS BLACK PEOPLE! ZOMG!!! It’s that they’re quads. Yale has made it known that they don’t like to split up twins/triplets etc, so as these kids are overall very qualified, then Yale had the choice to accept them all or reject them all. (Or defer them all, I actually know twins who both got deferred.)</p>
<p>Ultimately, this is YALE. They’re not going to just admit some random people with terrible grades on the basis that they’re quadruplets OR because they’re from a minority. They still need to pick applicants they think will contribute to the class as a whole and will gain the most from the experience, so clearly they think the quads are qualified enough to handle the rigour of the education.</p>
<p>Please. Just stop trying to call each other out. It’s getting silly. If Yale’s decision to admit these people offends you, then the answer is simple - don’t apply to Yale. It’s not your place to get all high and mighty about it. Just get over it and move on.</p>
BACK UP. how about the racial stereotypes that say we asians are anti-social, nerdy, STINGY, selfish people. people who can only excel in math/science, who are robots. tell me that isnt racist. I live in a pretty liberal town, and even I have been called racial slurs before. stop trying to diminish my argument just because you think one race is at more of a disadvantage than another. and sure, asians werent enslaved because whites never had the chance TO enslave them, they’ve always been isolated. but please dont ignore what happened to the japanese after WWII.</p>
<p>also this little quote here:
You’ve just basically said that Asians have been able to overcome racism and achieve success. Why?? because we’re smart, because we work hard! don’t tell me we don’t have to overcome obstacles. that fact is, we do, and we can. why should we be punished with race quotas, when other minorities are given AA?
I’m not arguing that race quotas SHOULDNT exist (honestly i wouldnt want to attend a school with 50% asians) but please do not try to argue that african americans and hispanics underachieve because of some inherent difference in treatment. All I can say is that whites treat minorities (ALL minorities, including asians) differently than they’d treat each other</p>
<p>This is going a bit too far. The fact that this topic is even being debated is somewhat appalling. Have any of you seen the complete applications of any of the quadruplets? Didn’t think so. What gives you the right to judge them in any way?</p>