<p>Well maybe you're getting hidden answers?</p>
<p>Since Muslims, Christians, and Jews have people over which they have common belief of existence, there must be an explanation behind all our religions.</p>
<p>At such a young age, it is hard to believe that you would know much about life, and joy, pain, suffering, and love. You are so young and if you hate God, as you say you do, it is sad that you live in a state of darkness, where, love does not exist. God is the light, and God is Love, without God there is no life. You may have your own personal problems, but I believe that even in pure darkness there is light.</p>
<p>sorry i should have mentioned my post was for GDWilner</p>
<p>^ haha it sounds like you purport to know much about life and even ::gasp:: god just after you imply that GDWilner does not. Please do tell us all where you get this knowledge. And really, that is only the first issue I have with your post - second, are you implying that people who do not believe in your god live in a "state of darkness", devoid of love and life(ie they would literally be dead)? Because otherwise, you're just throwing out meaningless, cliche statements (ie "god is love", etc.). So unless you're planning on clarifying what you mean...</p>
<p>A book you all may enjoy is "Finding Faith" by Brian McLaren -- I think it's really good roadmap through different belief systems, and it's extremely well thought out.</p>
<p>Sorry if anyone was offened by my comment but That is what i believe. But that doesn't mean you have to believe in my God, many of the major religions believe, around the same thing, though interpretid differently. Mostly i think it is beter to believe in something greater than ourselves.</p>
<p>nick,</p>
<p>i am not getting hidden answers. i've waited so long that i'm thinking i should just quit praying. i don't want "objects" and i'm not asking God to make someone want me, in fact my prayer is very straight-forward and sincere, but no results.</p>
<p>have you gotten any answers</p>
<p>In answer to the question: Is there any mention of Jesus in the Old Testament.</p>
<p>You could start with John 1:1 in the new testament which refers to the beginning of the world found in Genesis.</p>
<p>In the beginning was the Word.and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (John 1:1)</p>
<p>"Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR image.....(Genesis 1:26)</p>
<p>This would indicate God was not alone when he created us and all creation with us. There are many references in the Old testament which refer to Jesus not by name but as part of or as God.(Trinity)</p>
<p>If you look at the Greek meaning of the WORD in the passage above the translation shown in my Bible is Logos. Logos descibes the begiining of the cosmos or the source of creation.</p>
<p>Interesting that Jesus is called the Word by John. Also in the proverbs section of the Bible the use of Wisdom is used as a referal to Jesus being with God from the beginning. The Holy Spirit is mentioned whisch is again a part of the trinity....all God.</p>
<p>I do not wish to try to convince anyone......just answering the proposed questions with my own humble insights of some biblical passages.</p>
<p>As far as WHY Jesus's death on the cross pays for our sins: I think it is simply because God loves us and it breaks his heart when we sin and seperate ourselves from Him. He wanted to find a way that we could be reunited the way we were in the garden. He missed that bond and wanted us back. He sacrificed a piece of Himself (His Son) who came in the flesh and lived among us.
I think He simply loved us and felt lost without us. He laid down His life( through the form of Jesus) so that could happen. His heart was broken and he wanted us back.</p>
<p>Jesus is"the light, the resurrection and the way" this is what we are told by Jesus Himself. The two are synomonous, actually with the Holy Spirit they are the Trinity.</p>
<p>I see the death and resurrection of Christ as God telling us how much he missed being seperated from us and making a way for us to be reunited again.</p>
<p>Well I have gotten answers to my prayers but the answers weren't what I was asking for.For example my grandfather had cancer and I prayed that GOD would let him get better but he died.I got what I wanted just not how I wanted it.</p>
<p>^?? how could that work? and may he rest in peace.</p>
<p>i just don't think that God really, truly answers prayer. Who else has experienced answers from praying? Because frankly, I've waited, been patient, remained optimistic. However, it does not always turn out so well.</p>
<p>Well yeah, a prayer asking for something isn't magic, it's a request.
"If we ask anything according to His will, He heareth us." At least you're not Job, who also believed God had forsaken him. Even Jesus's prayers were not always answered.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Luckycharms,
Thank you! Whatever little philosophical brilliance (hah) I have doesn't express itself well... You made the exact point I was trying to get at. As far as I understand it, its a metaphysical problem, without the good morality is rooted in no standard, but to call the good a-moral as a judgment that implies its incapable of good is absurd. </p>
<p>I think the original question GDWilner asked is very interesting, but whatever chance of discussion there is in it has been ruined so far by repeatedly trying to reduce the whole idea to a scapegoating mechanism.</p>
<p>Since you are a Christian, while my grasp of Christianity is rudimentary at best, I'd be interested to hear what you think of my take on the original question.</p>
<p>I posted briefly before, quoting from Annie Dillard, the idea that Christ is Gods link to the world, that when Christ came to give us everlasting life He brought the infinite into the finite, that now man can partake in what is holy. As far as the idea of the scapegoating mechanism, that Christ took on all sins on the cross and crucified them, Im pretty skeptical unless its in a metaphorical sense. Apart from the three verses GDWilner posted, I havent seen this concept elsewhere in the NT, and the connection seems weak at best. As far as I can see all of those verses (especially Romans) dont say explicitly Christ took on all our sins, but that Christ took on our sins and became sinful in a loose sense by being made flesh, or finite, and that by his life and death brought spirit into the world, that we might follow spirit. As far as its connection to sin, this goes back again to the Dantean idea, that you cannot defeat sin except by Gods help. When Christianity says to let Christ into your heart, or that you must accept Christ, Im pretty sure its meant literally. Its Christ or the Holy Ghost that is usually meant, not the Father, who remains infinite, while Christ is infinity on earth, and by this it means letting Christ, or the Good, or whatever you want to call it, act in you. One of the ideas Ive heard about the Fall is that when man ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and not of the tree of life, he chose a human knowledge of good and evil (and thus every system of morality, necessarily fallible) rather than unity with God, while only God is good. The idea of doing good, not based on the law (for what the law could not do ), is based on that connection to what is holy, through Christ.</p>
<p>This is very much rambling but anyway I look forward to hearing what you think
[/quote]
Thank you, I'm glad what I said made sense :) Oh and by the way, I just discovered Annie Dillard when my English teacher gave me one of her books when I got one of the English awards in her class, so yeah anyway...</p>
<p>It sounds like you have a pretty good understanding of Christianity. If you don't mind I'm going to try to answer your question and the OP's at the same time. Hopefully that works...</p>
<p>
[quote]
As we all know, according to the Bible, Jesus died in order to redeem all our sins. My question, however, is why? Why is it that Jesus' death absolves us of our sins? To me, it seems like such a "scapegoating" mechanism shouldn't work. For example, if I murder someone and find someone else willing to be punished in my place, should I get off scot-free? Does it work because God says it does, or is there logical justification for why Jesus is able to die for everybody's sins?
[/quote]
I'm assuming by your "as we all know..." comment that at least for the sake of argument you're assuming that the Bible is accurate and true. First of all, your automatic rejection of the cliche "because God said so" explanation doesn't necessarily make it invalid. Yes, it is a cop-out, but that doesn't mean it isn't valid. If God is infinite and we aren't, then obviously we will never be able to fully grasp His nature, motivations, etc. As long as God is infinite and we aren't, there will be limitations to our understanding of Him.</p>
<p>However, this doesn't mean we should just give up trying to know God better, because He did give us our minds for a reason. Because we're operating on the assumption that the Bible accurately describes the process of salvation, I'm going to start with a passage from Romans:</p>
<p>Romans 3:21-26
21) But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22) even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
23) for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24) being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
25) whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forebearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
26) for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. (full context at <a href="http://biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%203;&version=49;%5B/url%5D">http://biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%203;&version=49;</a></p>
<p>The bold words I think are the key words to understand the concept, so I wanted to point them out. I think the key to your question hinges on the concept of propitiation, which Merriam-Webster defines as "an atoning sacrifice." To "atone" is "to supply satisfaction for," which, essentially, is what you called the "scapegoating mechanism." Although in this context, I think that calling it a scape-Lamb mechanism is more appropriate, since Jesus is "the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world" (John 1:29). I think in the Romans passage Paul highlights this idea by saying that God "passed over the sins previously committed," which I'm pretty sure is an allusion to the Jewish custom of Passover, where in Egypt God commanded His people to sacrifice a lamb who was "unblemished" (Exodus 12) in order to cause the angel of death to "pass over" their household and not kill their firstborn in the final plague. Jesus, though, in living the perfect sinless life, died as the ultimate Lamb as the final atoning sacrifice for the sin of the entire world.</p>
<p>So, in answer to both your questions, I do see atonement as a "scapegoating mechanism" because that's how God designed it to work. Now, GDWilner, I want to explain why.</p>
<p>The difference between the analogy of one person being punished for another's crime and Christ's atonement for our sin is one of authority. One innocent man does not have the authority to, after paying the penalty for another (guilty) man's crime, to declare him forgiven. He is still under the authority of the judge. And even the judge does not have the ability to declare the guilty man's crime paid for because he is still accountable to the law, which is just (in an ideal world, at least) and which states that the man who committed the crime must pay its just penalty.</p>
<p>Now this just law is a moral law because justice is, after all, a moral virtue. So the law, because it is moral, is a reflection of God's character--his goodness. Therefore the law and its justice are accountable to God. God, because He is the essence and embodiment of absolute Good--of which justice is a part--alone has the authority to declare any and all guilty people's sins atoned for.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, the penalty for sin is death (Romans 6:23), and there is no man (or woman, obviously) who is sinless (Romans 3:23). So no man is able to atone for another's sin--each has his own to worry about. God's just nature requires this payment, and God cannot contradict His nature.</p>
<p>So, God sent His Son Jesus Christ, "who, being in very nature God" (Philippians 2:6), to live a sinless life (being fully God, He is uniquely capable of this) and to die on the cross to atone for humanity's sin (being fully man, he is qualified to pay the penalty of death). Then, on the third day, Jesus rose, declaring once and for all His power over death and bringing justification to all who accept His free gift of salvation. We don't deserve it--Jesus certainly didn't deserve to die--and yet He still offered Himself as the propitiation for our sin. Through His work we are justified, declared righteous, and redeemed from sin and death's bondage.</p>
<p>But why can Christ die for OTHER PEOPLE'S sins? Sin is not like money, which can be transferred from one person to another. Everyone's sins are personal.</p>
<p>"God, because He is the essence and embodiment of absolute Good--of which justice is a part--alone has the authority to declare any and all guilty people's sins atoned for."</p>
<p>It seems, then, that you agree to the proposition that it works "because God says it does," and so, my argument stands.</p>
<p>Another point that was brought up is that "good" is not necessarily equivalent to "moral." This might be true as far as actions go: if I give a million dollars to fight world hunger, the fact that starving people are getting help is "good." However, unless helping others was my intent, it does not necessarily make be a "good" or "moral" person. I think the phrase "God is good" implies the second meaning of the word, that relating to people, independently of their actions. Although a good action may not be a moral action, a good person is the same thing as a moral person. Again, the key is choice.</p>
<p>Since anything God does is automatically moral (or "good," it doesn't matter)*, he has no choice to be a moral (good) being, which, of course, is a contradiction, since one necessarily must choose to be moral (good) in order to be moral (good). Your argument is purely semantic, as far as I can tell. Within the context of my argument, I believe the conflation of "good" and "moral" is irrelevant, as I have just explained.</p>
<p>*As explained in an earlier post, and related to the "Jesus Christ, scapegoat" concept.</p>
<p>Hello, GD... I'm glad to see that you're interested in learning more about this cryptic figure we call God! =)
It's true. Not a whole lot is known about our God; in fact, the Bible makes clear that God's plan for the most part is beyond what we can truly understand (1 Corinthians 2:7).
I'll do my best to address some of the concerns you are having. But I'm going to be honest... my knowledge is also very minimal as I am actually a new Christian (for about 6 months). I was just like you, full of questions and objections about the religion... but I was completely turned around. Now I really do believe C.S. Lewis was correct when he said that atheism is just "too simple."
In any case, here goes. </p>
<p>But why can Christ die for OTHER PEOPLE'S sins? Sin is not like money, which can be transferred from one person to another. Everyone's sins are personal.</p>
<p>I understand what you mean here. It doesn't seem right that just because Person X died, Person Y is exonerated.
Perhaps you should visualize this in a different way.
Just think that God sent His Son to
a) Be an example of the perfect person
b) To teach
c) To show what happens when people sin</p>
<p>But wait a minute... what happens when people sin?
Well, Christ died for our sins. So when we sin, we die?
Nope.
Christ never sinned, so that wouldn't make sense.
Instead, Christ died on the cross to show that because of our sin, God suffers. We break God's heart when we rebel against Him, and draw away from His love. Whenever we sin, we construct this barrier between ourselves and our Father, we bring back the memories of the first days when Adam and Eve turned their backs on God. </p>
<p>So... why does the Cross vindicate us?</p>
<p>Well, God has forgiven us and is willing to ignore our sins as long as we show that we are truly sorry for what we have done... as long as we take to heart the lesson He tried to teach us through Jesus' life. So, we prove that we are interested in loving God by accepting the example He sent for us.</p>
<p>I'm sorry if that wasn't completely clear. Feel free to ask about anything else. I'm sorry I didn't really understand the whole moral/good topic, as I haven't read all the posts on this thread (yes... I'm quite lazy lol). But anyway, if I can be useful in any other way, I'd be glad to help.</p>
<p>Muslims, Jews, Christians = all equal under the eyes of God. Those who believe in God are equal, period.</p>
<p>I guess I should have worded it in another way.I asked God to take away my Grandfathers pain he did he let him die; know he fills no more pain.</p>
<p>Yes, I'm sure your grandfather died because God let him die--not because of CANCER or anything.</p>
<p>George Carlin has a particularly poignant saying: "Before every football game, both teams pray. One team always loses." At best, prayer only invokes the placebo effect.</p>
<p>GDWilner, what do you think will happen after people die?</p>
<p>You probably rot in the ground. The important thing is that I'm not jumping to conclusions based on nothing, like religious people do.</p>