Question about Diversity

Applying to College
1

<p>Where I come from diversity describes variation in thoughts, perspective, history, aptitudes, etc. It is something substantive that actually contributes to widening your perspective and freeing yourself from biases. I'd say a club I founded and belong to that discusses fundamental issues in philosophy is pretty diverse. But by the standards of college admission is isn't. All the members are white, live in the same suburb, are all middle class (more or less). They have different ideas from all over the political spectrum, different likes and dislike, different backgrounds, different academic aptitudes, but apparently those things are irrelevant for "diversity" as defined by admissions. Apparently personality, the essense of the person, doesn't matter and race does matter because despite everyone agreeing race doesn't matter (which is what makes racism wrong) it contributes to "diversity." </p>

<p>Can anyone who supports diversity as defined by admissions explain to me why this scenario is good for education?</p>

<p>One girl gets A-s across the board, more or less by grade consciousness, works on several clubs but admits to only doing them to look good for college, often doesn't show up for the club I run despite being elected treasurer, has < 1200 SATs which match the A-s fairly well, and is Hispanic.</p>

<p>Anoter person is a white male from the same school, from the same suburb, from the same income range, has A+s across the board, has taken more AP classes and gotten higher scores, has founded several clubs to try to improve education in the school, is a dedicated political advocate for reducing international poverty, and has 1500+ SATs.</p>

<p>The girl is accepted to a top-5 school. The guy is rejected by the same place and many other schools so he goes to a not-so-good state school. This is a true story and I have trouble understanding how having a person of a different ethnic background contributes more to diversity, despite both applicants coming from the same area and same school, having the same opportunites etc. The guy is clearly more dedicated, more intelligent, and apparently has a stronger moral character as the work for the poor suggests in contrast to selfish grade-grubbing. Clearly neither applicant was more disadvantaged than the other--they live in the same place and go to the same school, so that can't explain anything.</p>

<p>It seems to me the only explanation is politics. There is a political motive to meet the fluid quota numbers for Hispanics, but no political motive to be fair to all applicants.</p>

2

<p>There are 10,000 posts on this subject. I suggest you use the "search" function.</p>

<p>However, the basic rundown is this:</p>

<p>You have way too many wrong assumptions in your post.</p>

<p>First:
[quote]
. Apparently personality, the essense of the person, doesn't matter

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Colleges do care about personality and the essense of a person... that's why we write essays and talk about our EC's and stuff. And not just base it all numerically on SATs and GPA. </p>

<p>Second:
[quote]
and race does matter because despite everyone agreeing race doesn't matter (which is what makes racism wrong)

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Everyone agrees that race doesn't matter? I suggest you take a "looksie" at Cornel West's book "Race Matters."</p>

<p>Finally:
[quote]
The girl is accepted to a top-5 school. The guy is rejected by the same place and many other schools so he goes to a not-so-good state school. This is a true story and I have trouble understanding how having a person of a different ethnic background contributes more to diversity, despite both applicants coming from the same area and same school, having the same opportunites etc. The guy is clearly more dedicated, more intelligent, and apparently has a stronger moral character as the work for the poor suggests in contrast to selfish grade-grubbing. Clearly neither applicant was more disadvantaged than the other--they live in the same place and go to the same school, so that can't explain anything.</p>

<p>It seems to me the only explanation is politics. There is a political motive to meet the fluid quota numbers for Hispanics, but no political motive to be fair to all applicants.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>You are making a silly, stupid and racist assumption that the girl only got in because she was Hispanic. You did not read both of the applicants applications, teacher and school reccomendations. You are just making a judgement based off of nothing and then attaching your political views to it.</p>

3

<p>...agreed ^^</p>

4

<p>I don't want to get into an AA argument... but I'd like to point something out:</p>

<p>If the guy had 1500+ SATs and an A+ average, but still had to go to a "not-so-good" state school, he really did a poor job of college planning. He could have gone somewhere good, or at least gotten money from a better than "not-so-good" state school.</p>

5

<p>No. It's not "just" politics. Read some educational theory and some psychology, and you'll discover that there are other reasons besides politics that drive higher education's interest in racial and ethnic diversity. You may not agree that their reasons are valid, but I think it's pretty simplistic to call it politics alone.</p>

6

<p>"No. It's not "just" politics. Read some educational theory and some psychology, and you'll discover that there are other reasons besides politics that drive higher education's interest in racial and ethnic diversity. You may not agree that their reasons are valid, but I think it's pretty simplistic to call it politics alone."</p>

<p>Thank you. That is all I wanted to know, although it would be nice to have specific books or authors listed instead of general fields. I would be thankful if you could recomend some books on the subject, preferably some generally accepted books, not controversial ones like Race Matters (which was suggested by another person). The Mismeasure of Man by Stephen Jay Gould is, I think, a good example of a non-controversial, straightforward and generally accepted book on the subject of race, so I'm pretty confident more exist. Love it or hate it The Closing of the American Mind has some non-controversial points in it and those parts are the kind I'd like to see on why diversity is good (obviously Bloom argues the opposite point that personality matters and the goal of education is to lean, not to become "open-minded" where openness means closed-minded relativism).</p>

<p>I disagree with anyone willing to dismiss my expierence as stupid or racist; the old definition of racist as "the belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others" is exactly what I'm arguing against. I just stated I strongly support the arguments against biological determinism and racism in general advanced by Gould, so it is a misunderstanding to say the comments were racist.</p>

<p>Specifically, to clarify some points:
"You did not read both of the applicants applications, teacher and school reccomendations."</p>

<p>Actually I did for the most part. The person I'm talking to is a student I know who asked for help with her essays. Her essay talked about a novel she is supposidly writing but had never mentioned to anyone until she started writing the essay. I told her she could make the essay more effective if she added specific examples from her expierience writing the novel, as it would ensure everyone understand she was serious on the subject. She couldn't provide any, so maybe she isn't actually writing one. I don't know. Anyone, I told her she could miss a meeting for a club to get help from an English teacher and to help relieve some stress from her. I also helped her navigate the maze of forms on the standard application. One of the teachers who wrote one of her recomendations said that at least two people, the guy mentioned above included, were definitly more qualified but were deferred. I didn't read the recomendation specifically, but according to the teacher she did not think the decisions were fair. Since being admitted the Hispanic girl has stated she doesn't really care about school because she's already accepted, and her commitment to ECs has dropped accordingly from my observations. I'm not a stalker so I can't provide statistics on hours committed, but I know she wasn't present again today at a competition. I listened to her and tried my best to keep her confidence up when her guidance counselor put "top 5%" for apparently every box on the school recomendation (and righly so by all accounts), and her implication that the written part was not filled with glowing praise either. I'm happy for her that she was accepted and used my break (from unpaid tutoring for a semester exam) to congratulate her.</p>

<p>Now people may say I'm a racist for doing my best to help the girl and trying to relieve some stress and trying to understand that all high school students are in a similar stressful and uncertain situation, but I think they would only say that because I'm failing to convey my expierience and my thoughts.</p>

<p>I have a similar situation with the guy. I've proofread that essay as well and know him even better as far as personality goes. To be honest I think my real point is relating the story is to say sometimes admissions make mistakes, and I think the drive for diversity causes even more mistakes by removing context in many cases, not adding to it.</p>

7

<p>I was always under the idea that to colleges, diversity=ethnic variation in the student body.</p>

8

<p>"You are making a silly, stupid and racist assumption that the girl only got in because she was Hispanic."</p>

<p>It's called affirmative action. The TC makes a good point about how those who are higher achievers don't always get what they deserve in today's society. It's odd because in a society that values hard work and independence, some things don't add up.</p>

9

<p>re: #7</p>

<p>They justify ethnic variation is good because then you can have different perspectives on everything in the classroom.</p>

10

<p>
[quote]
Thank you. That is all I wanted to know, although it would be nice to have specific books or authors listed instead of general fields. I would be thankful if you could recomend some books on the subject, preferably some generally accepted books, not controversial ones like Race Matters (which was suggested by another person). The Mismeasure of Man by Stephen Jay Gould is, I think, a good example of a non-controversial, straightforward and generally accepted book on the subject of race, so I'm pretty confident more exist. Love it or hate it The Closing of the American Mind has some non-controversial points in it and those parts are the kind I'd like to see on why diversity is good

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Oh lord. God forbid you should have to read something controversial. You are going to hate college if you only like reading things that are accepted by everyone. Despite what your pal Mr. Bloom would like to think, part of education is indeed about exposing yourself to something different. </p>

<p>Take for instance the study of History. You would be a fool to suggest that there is any way to learn History in an "unbiased" and "uncontroversial" manner. Everything is all about how you present the facts, and which facts you choose to present (certainly you can not present all). Therefore in your study of History, you will have to read controversial things and be exposed to controversial topics.</p>

<p>I think that when you say "uncontroversial," what you really mean is something that supports your side. If that is what you meant (hell, even if it isn't), then there is absolutely no book that anyone could reccomend to you about the values of diversity that is uncontroversial... simply because you would refuse to accept it. How's that for closed-mindedness?</p>

<p>As for Gould's uncontroversial book? Here is what the psychologist Hans Eysenck had to say about it: "a paleontologist's distorted view of what psychologists think, untutored in even the most elementary facts of the science."</p>

<p>Uncontroversial? Or just something that supports your side?</p>

<p>As for your sob story, I couldn't care less how much or how little of her application you did or didn't read. You weren't there in that room when the application is read, you don't know everything, even though you clearly think you do. Because of that, the assumption that you implied that she only got in because she is hispanic is racist. There is no way around that.</p>

11

<p>Like so many words and phrases, affirmative action has been tossed around pretty carelessly over the past few years, and its actual meaning has been blurred, if not lost altogether. Contrary to what you may have heard (contrary to what "They say . . ."!), affirmative action is not about quotas—that is, it's not meant to force schools or businesses into accepting or hiring a certain percentage of minorities or women. Instead, affirmative action is meant to level the playing field and ensure that schools and businesses are not intentionally discriminating against minority groups.</p>

<p>One common misperception about affirmative action is that it allows less-qualified people to "take the place" of those who are more qualified (but who happen to be white males). When affirmative action works the way it's supposed to, this isn't the case, and those hired or accepted should be as qualified as anyone else.</p>

<p>Many schools rightly believe that diversity is an important part of an education, and actively seek to attract minority students. Sometimes these minorities have lower grade point averages or SAT scores than non-minorities. Sometimes, however, so do athletes, artists, musicians, children of alumni (legacies), people who have shown their commitment to volunteer work, or people who have overcome serious obstacles in life. - Princeton Review</p>

<p>The Princeton Review has a great article that I feel explains this really well. Minorities bring different experiences and cultures that are different from the typical white student. By incorporating minorities into the school they make it closer to the real world and vastly different than the schools which a lot of white students come from, which are 98% white.</p>

<p>You should also blame this on the applicant pool. EX. If a 100 white kids applied with A+ , 5 blacks with A's, and 5 hispanics with A-'s to a school that required A-'s to get in, and there are only 5 spots. Who do you think is going to get screwed. You have to incorporate all cultures into the school but even though u have "less" qualified applicants they still meet the requirements and are quite capable of doing well at the school. By adding everyone from every race into the college you make a culturally diverse school.</p>

<p>It could just be that they had a weaker hispanic applicant pool that year. It is well known that minorities have lower college going rates than white people. So for example if they only got 5 qualified hispanic apps but wanted to have 3 hispanics in their college, some hispanics at the lower end of the requirements would get rejected. In other years they might have a strong hispanic applicant pool with all A+'s so that girl could of gotten rejected in that year. She might have gotten lucky.</p>

<p>Because the simple facts are that no matter how "diverse" a white students thinking is they can NEVER have the same experiences that a hispanic, black, or even asian student can and vice versa. These experiences are invaluable and bring value to the school in so many ways.</p>

<p>And also, there are a lot more white people in the U.S than other races, hence the term minority. So it only makes sense that there are a greater number of qualified apps to other race apps. But colleges want a mix so white people get screwed in a sense here just because of there pure numbers. Despite AA though white people do dominate about 90% of America's schools.</p>

<p>And admission officers are humans. You don't know what was said or talked about in the room. You don't completely know what she put on her application. There is a VERY good chance her race had nothing to do with it.</p>

12

<p>Diversity is, in my opinion, a feel good word that shifts focus from what affirmative action is today - racial preferences.</p>

13

<p>Many supporters of affirmative action will claim that racial preferences is either misleading or even an outright lie.</p>

<p>Yet, these same people are totally against the following idea:</p>

<p>"We should not discriminate against any group nor should we discriminate for any group."</p>

<p>Everyone here supports the first part of that, but the supporters of affirmative action aren't willing to support the second part.</p>

<p>Edit:</p>

<p>Using a real-life example, we can see how powerful five words are.</p>

<p>Supporters of affirmative action have no problem with the following paragraph:</p>

<p>''The state shall not discriminate against any individual or group, on the basis of race, sex, color, ethnicity or national origin in the operation of public employment, public education, or public contracting."</p>

<p>I don't, either. However, I think a few words are missing.</p>

<p>''The state shall not discriminate against, **or grant preferential treatment to, any individual or group, on the basis of race, sex, color, ethnicity or national origin in the operation of public employment, public education, or public contracting."</p>

<p>After those words are added, supporters of affirmative action shake their heads and proclaim "discriminatory policy!"</p>

14

<p>If you really want to get into the wording, it says "any individual."</p>

<p>Does that mean accepting any person is preferential treatment towards that person?</p>

15

<p>Just Browsing, the OP implied he wanted some overall background info on the matter, including scientific based information that has generally become accepted by the mainstream. Your attack just made you seem intolerant and overbearing.</p>

<p>To the OP. Even with affirmative action, there are many Hispanics far more qualified than this girl. Sadly, if what you posted was true, the admissions process is not foolproof, and faking an application through is definitely possible. The essay was initially a way designed to screen out Jewish applicants without being blatantly racist, and has evolved to be a "window into the mind." Sadly, like in all walks of life, people expert in the art of BSing and little else will sometimes be able to squirm through the cracks in the system. Just be happy I guess that decisions for the most part are sufficiently accurate, otherwise the college would quickly go down in stature.</p>

<p>
[quote]
EX. If a 100 white kids applied with A+ , 5 blacks with A's, and 5 hispanics with A-'s to a school that required A-'s to get in, and there are only 5 spots. Who do you think is going to get screwed. You have to incorporate all cultures into the school but even though u have "less" qualified applicants they still meet the requirements and are quite capable of doing well at the school. By adding everyone from every race into the college you make a culturally diverse school.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Really good example, though somewhat exxagerated. With the inclusion of diversity and the preference for having a body that sort of reflects society in whole, it's become basically that an individual has to complete against his own race pool. </p>

<p>To the OP, just as an interesting thought, was the school mentioned MIT? Not trying to imply anything, just got the feeling from what you described.</p>

16

<p>Just_Browsing,</p>

<p>
[quote]

Does that mean accepting any person is preferential treatment towards that person?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Where's the logic in that?</p>

<p>Was this person accepted (or denied) on the basis of his race, sex, color, ethnicity, or national origin in a public area?</p>

<p>If the answer is yes, then preferential treatment (or discrimination) occurred.</p>

<p>If the answer is no, then the person was neither preferentially treated nor discriminated against.</p>

<p>We've really gone several steps backwards since the Civil Rights Movements if supporters of affirmative action won't agree that we shouldn't grant preferential treatment to anyone.</p>

17

<p>
[quote]
Thank you. That is all I wanted to know, although it would be nice to have specific books or authors listed instead of general fields. I would be thankful if you could recomend some books on the subject

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Frankly, much of the stuff I've seen in this area isn't being written up in books--it's research that is first being disseminated and discussed in peer-reviewed journals or in court cases, such a Gratz v. Bollinger. I tend to see it secondhand, myself. Here's one article about a very intriguing study about the effects of diversity. The researcher found that racial diversity in a jury panel seemed to change the thinking and the contributions of white jurors. It talks about juror leniency (which may or not be considered a desirable effect), but also other kinds of changes in jury decision-making I think we would all classify as good. Just read the abstract if you want to get an overview.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.apa.org/releases/0406_JPSP_Sommer.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.apa.org/releases/0406_JPSP_Sommer.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

18

<p>Regarding diversity in higher education subsequent to CA's Prop 209, there are some interesting findings & discussion in the following. It also addresses the absence of common terminology/definitions in the debate.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.diversity.umich.edu/center/cantor.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.diversity.umich.edu/center/cantor.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

19

<p>
[quote]

Terms like “affirmative action,” “quotas,” “targets,” and “preferences” have
become so burdened with emotional baggage that they confuse rather than clarify the discussion.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Couldn't be more true.</p>

<p>The definition of afffirmative action has changed considerably since the 1960s.</p>

<p>Quotas are illegal.</p>

<p>Targets are quotas by a different name.</p>

<p>Preferences is what affirmative action is today.</p>

20

<p>I didn't read the entire thread, but I think a person's ethnicity does a lot to shape that person's experiences and personality, which in turn contributes to the diversity you desire in schools. A hispanic student and a chinese student certainly aren't going to have the same type of atmosphere at home, have the same customs, celebrate the same holidays, maybe even hang around the same group of people, etc. That's probably a reaosn why colleges support racial diversity...among others.</p>