<p>Even knowing how schools have become more selective, I was still shocked when I checked the stats. I guess if I calculated the number of top 10% class rank, 700 SAT kids in the country, there would be a large number and they are filling up those colleges. I understand that Ivys and equivalent are looking for the exceptional kids. But all of those colleges can’t be filling up with the extreme high-achievers. What about the plain vanilla 3.85+ unweighted GPA, 2250+ SAT, 4+ AP courses, strong but not adult-level EC kids like my DS? I absolutely see and understand the difference between him and the Ivy-bound kids. But what I don’t know is where he should be aiming. If his stats match some very, very selective but not absolutely top-tier schools, how do I know which ones he has a chance for? </p>
<p>My view is that my DS and many other kids are later bloomers than the kids who are exceptional now, and that they will come into their own in college (thus the search for the places where this is most likely to happen) and end up in the same grad and professional school programs and careers as the kids who are so far ahead now, and they will function on the same level as adults. </p>
<p>I was shocked (and so was my son) when he got into U of Chicago. He had solid grades, sky-high CR score, and had a lot of fun with the essays. (He received a comment about them, so we know what made an impression.) I think his teachers really went to bat for him too. We knew he was not an Ivy bound kid, but we suspected he was a diamond in the rough, but were not at all sure if college admissions offices would be able to see that.</p>
<p>OP,
I Have not read most of the posts on this thread, but if it has not already been mentioned, Your son needs to add
USC [ Southern Calif] to his list. AND he should apply before their Dec 1 scholarship deadline. [ something to put on the calender] .With hi SAT scores and his GPA he has a very good chance of acceptance there.
USC has the very well respected Thorton School of Music and non music majors can easily take lessons and music classes, if desired. And USC is always looking for talented musicians to play in the Trojan Band.
If your son’s PSAT scores qualify him for NMSF status, he has a far higher chance of acceptance at USC than non NMSF applicants, and would automatically receive a 1/2 Tuition scholarship if he is accepted . So have him do some prepping [ taking practice SAT tests] for the PSAT test next year. A high score on that one 1 hr test = $$$ at many fine U’s. </p>
<p>He’s only “plain vanilla” here on CC…in the real world world, he’s probably something like salted caramel and fudge with sprinkles. Colleges like Vandy and Emory and Rice are still probably academic matches for a student like him. It’s just that they’re not guaranteed-acceptance matches. </p>
<p>That’s why D’s list keeps growing—lots of places where we all think she would flourish, but very few that are sure-bets in the admission lottery. So she’s spreading her bets with lots of applications, a few that are less risky and a few that are more risky. She is also trying to figure out how to use her “free spin” ED bet and how things like priority-review and nonbinding EA figure in to her strategy. </p>
<p>I’m not a gambler; all my investments are in low-risk funds and I’ve never bought a lottery ticket…so this is driving me nuts! </p>
<p>NYMomof2,<br>
You asked if it is common to be able to audition for a musical group ahead of time and I don’t know the answer to that. Of the 5 schools my D applied to Lawrence U is the only one that has that option. They have a music conservatory but are also very open to allowing non music majors to participate in the music programs. None of the other schools that were even high on my D’s list but eventually cut from her list allowed this either, though I remember running across it a few times when I was just browsing websites for various schools. Many schools allow the student to submit an arts supplement to show their talents that is factored into admission. Of the other 4 schools on my D’s list that she applied to she would have had to wait til arriving on campus to audition and know if she would be accepted into any groups.</p>
<p>UMich has rolling admissions and is a popular option around me. Excellent science and music.</p>
<p>As far as Oberlin average SATs, they report the college and the conservatory together. Con students tend to have lower SAT scores. Oberlin does have excellent science and math. Plus it’s a vegatarian’s dream with multiple coop options to choose from.</p>
<p>menloparkmom, Thank you for that information! USC has not been on my radar because I assumed that it was very competitive - and distance. A half-tuition scholarship would be fantastic! </p>
<p>I have already figured out the prepping thing - I’ve seen a few colleges that offer ~$2,500 scholarships to NMF. Over 4 years, that is $10k, well worth a few hours prepping. And NMF standing could easily turn into more scholarship money. I don’t know for sure if prepping will get him to NMF, or if he needs prepping to get there, but it certainly will make it much more likely. He is also becoming much more interested in colleges lately, and surprisingly ambitious (he is not at all competitive usually). He keeps talking about how unhappy he is that he did not make the English honors/AP track. He’s trying to think of a way to get into it. He already didn’t make it on grades and did not make it on a test that they offer as an alternative way in. </p>
<p>cellomom2, his music school is on top of this. He made his first (piano) professional sound recording last fall, in a session with other advanced students. The plan is for him to make one every year. (I have it on a private youtube link if anyone could listen and tell me how it might be received as part of his application - of course, he has improved a great deal since then and presumably will continue to improve.) </p>
<p>I love UMichigan, but I’m afraid that it’s way too big for him. I’m happy to hear about the vegetarian-friendly atmosphere at Oberlin!</p>
<p>On the good side, DS’ chem teacher urged him to take the SAT 2 in chem this year. I emailed him to ask whether he needed prep, etc. The teacher said that DS was very bright and he loved having him in class, and that he had the potential for high achievement in chemistry.</p>
<p>I only scanned this thread - but I haven’t seen UPenn mentioned. It tends to be the forgotten ivy. It’s a great school. They do like you to show interest. It was a tippy top reach for my D and they accepted her. I mention it because she has friend who is an architect major but he is minoring (I think) in music. He obviously gets lessons somewhere and he just had a recital. If his scores are high and if UPenn has a major he likes, he might consider it.</p>
<p>Someone else mentioned the Curtis Institute in Philadelphia in connection to Haverford, PhotoOp. Thanks for the Penn suggestion. I’ll keep it in mind, in case Naviance suggests that there is some hope. I had not considered any Ivys.</p>
The lack of noteworthy ECs is going to hurt at many selective colleges, but not as much for the “strong match” schools you highlighted in your post. We’ve seen several posts about top stat posters who were rejected to all ivies and less selective than ivies, yet accepted to Vanderbilt, Rice, ND, and/or USC. I wouldn’t call any of them a safety, but their decisions better correlate stats than most highly selective colleges that we emphasize on this forum. </p>
<p>Last year, I analyzed the Stanford RD thread, comparing the accepted posters to the rejected posters. The rejected posters had slightly better stats than the accepted posters. They had a slightly higher median GPA, slightly higher median test scores, notably higher median class rank, etc. The area where there was the greatest difference between accepted and rejected posters was out of classroom activities. The accepted posters often had a passion for something besides school work that they did very well, something that was often impressive on a state or national level. In some cases, they had something unique in they background that they overcame, which was impressive on the same level. In contrast, it was common for rejected posters to have great stats, but have nothing other than stats that was impressive beyond a HS level (a higher level than HS clubs, HS sports team participant, etc). If someone tried to guess acceptances in the 2017 RD thread by looking only at stats, they’d be wrong more often than right. However, if they tried to guess the decisions for forum thread posters by only looking at out of classroom activities without considering stats, they’d get the clear majority correct (after calibrating to appropriate threshold). </p>
<p>Back when I applied to colleges, I had a 3.4/3.5 HS GPA (not in top 10%) and a 500 verbal SAT score. I had some other impressive activities on my application that helped stand out, including showing a could handle college coursework by doing well in all of the many classes I took at SUNYA at RPI, which were above the level offered at my HS. Nevertheless, I’d expect most on this forum would have have focused on my HS stats and said to not bother applying to selective colleges because I had no chance with those stats. I applied and was accepted unhooked to Stanford, MIT, and ivies. It’s not all about stats.</p>
<p>That sort of confirms the impression I had when I came into this, Data10. The kids who get into Stanford have “noteworthy ECs.” DS plays the piano extremely well and has had some recognition, and is also doing well on his band instrument in very strong groups. And he spends about 25 hours/week during the school year on music. And he is in a pit band (playing easy music in the 2nd role). But he is not “impressive on a state or national level.” He may well be an all-state musician as an upperclassman, but he is not going to be performing with any professional orchestras. He’s doing well and I couldn’t be more pleased with his progress, but to a college admissions officer he will look just like thousands of other kids. </p>
<p>Which is fine - we just have to find a list of colleges that will take a “plain vanilla” accomplished kid and provide the opportunities he needs to find his field and excel.</p>
Yes, and you just never know what will happen. My younger son’s EC’s were:
Literary magazine (no position he just liked to hang with his friends)
Science Olympiad (good team, he helped it get to states and won a couple of ribbons at the State level)
Orchestra (he was a solid player, but nothing special - school has two orchestras he played in both of them)</p>
<p>But what probably made him memorable were two not very time consuming ECs that we would never have predicted. Neither were particularly time consuming. </p>
<p>In 10th grade he started doing origami to keep himself from falling asleep in AP Bio. Then he learned to make earrings with his creations so he could have low cost gifts for his friends. Then he started selling them at a local gallery. It was all very low key and not planned at all, but he wrote about it in a very engaging way for his main college essay.</p>
<p>The second activity also came later in high school - spring junior year. It came out of a need to volunteer for ten hours for a community organization as part of getting out of the NYS Government requirement. (There was also a test.) He ended up helping archive the neighborhood association papers. He wrote about his observations on his “favorite EC essay” so he talked about history repeating itself regarding whether the school playground should be open after hours and how working with primary documents often leaves out some of the critical information regarding a fight about open classrooms. He’d been very reluctant to write this essay, because he said it wasn’t really about him. But in the end it really worked. His essay really showed him thinking like a historian. I believe this essay really may have tipped him into the plus pile, and it only happened because he was trying to make room in his schedule for a more interesting course.</p>
<p>That’s a great story, mathmom! And this is the son who got into Chicago? And it’s interesting about the origami. My son draws during class as a way to focus. He has a hard time listening if his hands aren’t occupied. His math teacher hates this, and makes negative comments about it. (DS is doing very well in the class, so clearly he is learning.) His chem teacher loves him and is not bothered by this. I can’t imagine that it’s unusual for kids to doodle or draw. I often take notes during talks - that I don’t keep - as a way of focusing and retaining information. I take it the bio teacher didn’t object to the origami? </p>
<p>No the bio teacher was a pretty cool guy. He looked like a lumberjack and apparently was paranoid about germs. I also doodled a lot when I was in school and college, so it never bothered me. Yes, this is the kid who got into Chicago. His Why Chicago essay started off with all the reasons he thought his parents were crazy to suggest Chicago.</p>
<p>I agree that this is the key to standing out. No matter how many times people say it is not just about grades, I don’t think it sinks in. Also, I think one of the hardest things for people is to understand what makes an EC or achievement special. I use the example of a team captain, being a good sign of leadership, but team captains are a dime a dozen too. </p>
<p>An example of something “interesting in your story” is this.</p>
<p>
</a></p>
<p>Now not everyone needs to be this different, but you can see how this would be an interesting person to be in a room with. I think that is part of what they ADCOMS do, is put together a group of kids who would make for an interesting mixer. </p>
<p>I’m wondering how much geography factors into whether a school considers a kid “plain vanilla.” Last year, my NY-suburban child had stats in the upper quadrant of Vandy’s range and was accepted RD. Penn rejected him. I noticed on CC that students with equally impressive stats but who lived in Tenn or nearby were getting into Penn but not Vandy. So, whether a kid is considered “plain vanilla” or an added spice may depend in part on where they are coming from.</p>
<p>NYMomof2,
Your son can and SHOUD send a music CD to USC when he applies, just in case he wants the option of doing a music minor. It will show USC and Thorton his music “cred’s” , and it will make it easier for him to get permission to take music classes [ not lessons] , if he so desires.
And I DO suggest that he take AP Music Theory if it is offered at his HS. A high score on those 2 tests will get him out of some music prerequisites at Thorton, again, if he wants to take advantage of being at a U with a great Music school. </p>
<p>Thanks, menloparkmom. He does have a piano CD already, arranged by his music school, and I believe that they do these recordings once/year. A music minor is a great suggestion. I hadn’t thought of that. He is already self-studying AP Music Theory with his piano teacher. They did some of it last summer and will finish this coming summer, and the plan (his piano teacher’s idea) is that he will take the AP exam in 11th grade. This way, he doesn’t have to use a class period for AP Music Theory. But is doing it on your own and taking the exam as good as taking it in school? He already has 2 full credits each year from band and jazz band.</p>
<p>“But is doing it on your own and taking the exam as good as taking it in school?”</p>
<p>The thing about taking the AP Music class in school is it is proof , because it is on his transcript, of a students intellectual interest in Music. Not too many students who are not applying to conservatories take it. In addition, taking AP Music Theory, in addition to other AP classes, shows colleges a wide range of academic abilities, strengths and talents. </p>
Colleges like Vandy and Emory and Rice are still probably academic matches for a student like him. It’s just that they’re not guaranteed-acceptance matches. </p>