Question about Tufts granting SMFA degrees

Colleges and Universities A-Z Tufts University
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<p>“Interesting that this is your "first" post”</p>

<p>Thanks for the welcome. Love ya too ;) Did you pass go and discover a way to have your 1st post register higher than #1? ………Naughty girl!!</p>

<p>“They didn't work as hard as I did to get a Tufts degree”</p>

<p>Really? If you’ve never taken a full schedule of art and academic courses, or attended SMFA, how could you possibly be cognizant the difficulty of the curriculum? Seems like a myopic view, oui? </p>

<p>Your view is analogous to my M.I.T friends who are engineering majors. They love to disparage the math majors, etc.---accusing them of obtaining <em>easy</em> degrees b/c they don’t have labs…..Go figger.</p>

<p>Has it occurred to you to cackle about the athletes, urms, etc, etc., that are also receiving Tufts degrees, even though they might have been given preferential treatment in the admission process? And don’t stop there! I’m sure there’s a Senator’s, Congressperson’s or VIP kid somewhere in the bushes that was admitted with questionable states. Be sure to include them when you next throw a tantrum.</p>

<p>Fwiw-- Although based on complete naiveté, I admire your honest</p>

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<p>whoa.. how'd it happen that your post, that came before mine, moved down? strange. anyway, i responded, and my response is now for some reason above your post.</p>

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<p>"Naughty girl!"</p>

<p>I love the attitude some people display on CC; rather hilarious, really.</p>

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<p>lolabelle notes,""Look, I got into Tufts through the backdoor." I wanted to slap him"</p>

<p>Groucho Marx had a famous line, "I would never join a country club that would take me as a member." </p>

<p>Lolabelle, you go one step further, you would never be part of a club who take people different from you or those that you consider "inferior" to you. After all, if they didn't get admitted through Tufts Admission's office, they have to be inferior, right?</p>

<p>Response: I don't know whether to laugh or cry at this blatant elitism. If this is what Tufts develops, you should have gone elsewhere. It really is quite sad. However, that said, I will respond to you.</p>

<p>We looked into this for our daughter. SMFA kids take their liberal arts requirements at Tufts. They also have to meet the Tufts general education requirements and also meet the major requirements of SMFA,which are considerable.</p>

<p>Although they do get a Tufts diploma, they can't live in Tufts dorms. Thus, there are some limitations. </p>

<p>Artists generally make a lot less money than those that major in other disciplines; thus, I don't begrudge the lower tuition that they are paying.</p>

<p>As far as watering down your diploma, you, and everyone you know can try to get admitted using the SMFA route. There is no discrimination here. However, the big problem is that you need the talent to pass the courses there and need a very decent portfolio. In addition, these kids have to do resonably well in bothTufts courses and SMFA classes or they won't get a diploma. </p>

<p>This situation is not just endemic to Tufts. Radcliff girls get a Harvard Diploma. Barnard girls get a Columbia Diploma, and other schools have a similar situation.</p>

<p>It also provides a lot of diversity for Tufts in that all of these artistic kids get to mingle with the rest of the population. Welcome to holistic admission.
Tufts and all other schools admit all types of people with differing academic backgrounds. Athletes usually get admitted with lower credentials than the rest of the population. Under Represented Minorities (URMs may also be admitted with lower credentials. Legacies at some schools get a slight nudge in admission as does kids from major donors, and those from famous parents. In fact, kids from states with smaller populations might get admission preference due to their geographic location. I don't see you whining about these admissions, which, in my opinion, is a lot worse than giving diplomas to artsy kids. </p>

<p>Also, I was an SAT tutor many moons ago. I can honestly say that the only correlation that the SAT has is in predicting how well a student will do on the GRE and some post graduate exams. I have met far too many kids who did well on the SAT but had a mediocre GPA. Likewise, I have met a lot of folks who didn't do well on the SATs but did very well in college. The same can be said of tests to get into professional schools such as the LSAT.</p>

<p>In fact, if you do a search of the College Board site, they themselves note that their is only a slight corelation between SAT scores and GPA. ( I think it was a .62 corelation,which is just a bit better than randomly flipping a coin.)</p>

<p>My advice to you is to calm down, take a deep breadth, and stop worrying about other people. I really do believe that these artsy kids enrich the lives of everyone at the university.</p>

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<p>"We're talking about SMFA-only students who seem to be mooching off the Tufts name” very intelligent"</p>

<p>Lolabelle, it's possible your exasperation is misplaced, and it’s Tufts that’s at guilt for scaring your sensitive ego. :)</p>

<p>I would ask you this: is it truly the students “mooching” off Tufts? Or it is more likely Tufts was foresighted enough to establish a partnership with the SMFA to assure the SMFA (and Tufts) would attract a cadre of very intelligent artists, enhance diversity, and elevate Tufts/SMFA to two of the most respected and sought-after combined institutions (similar to the Barnard/Columbia relationship) here and abroad?</p>

<p>Barnard, as I’m sure you’re aware, is one of the original seven sisters. Although Barnard is formally affiliated with Columbia, it is legally separate and financially independent from Columbia and always had its own President, admission criteria, office of admission, campus, etc. etc.---similar to the Tufts/SMFA marriage. </p>

<p>Lolabelle, Barnard women /don’t/ receive diplomas from “Barnard College of Columbia” as you stated. They receive diplomas from Columbia. The only way to ascertain it’s a diploma for a Barnard graduate is the signature of Barnard’s President above the words “Collegh Barnardini Praeses” in the lower right hand corner of the diploma.</p>

<p>For context, I’m not a student at either SMFA or Tufts. ;)</p>

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<p>Sorry for typos. I spelled Radcliff,which should have been Radcliffe.</p>

<p>Likewise, corelation should have been correlation. Darn.</p>

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<p>Girls at Harvard go to Harvard College now; Radcliffe College is now a performance arts & research institute, fully integrated into Harvard University.</p>

<p>I guess the only comparable thing to SMFA/Tufts is, indeed, Barnard & Columbia. Except the SMFA students' diplomas don't even have some little signature indicating SMFA.</p>

<p>I just think it's a bit strange. But I agree that lots of kids get into school for other reasons -- URMs, athletes, legacies, and the like all get easier breaks. It's just tough to deal with when you worked so hard and had none of that to ease you in. I guess I just have to learn to deal with it.</p>

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<p>Lolabelle, thanks for taking the time to post here, and to give your insight and opinions from the perspective of a current student. It's very helpful. I also appreciate your levelheadedness, which is not often found on message boards of any sort.</p>

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<p>Well, that's nice of you, Dsiw. Though if you believe the above, I am a good reason not to come to Tufts ;-) Let me know when you hear about your acceptance!!</p>

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<p>Taxguy/Skiitifucan: </p>

<p>I don't really understand why you're giving LolaBelle a hard time about this; it's not like she didnt' admit that her feelings on this subject are "elitist". And even if they are, it's not like she's the only Tufts student on this forum & in the real world who's a bit perturbed by this, whether you believe it's a justified concern or not. </p>

<p>I, too, think it's strange that SMFA kids are given Tufts diplomas. And no, Taxguy, I don't think that I nor LolaBelle believe that people whose applications don't go through Tufts Admissions are "inferior"; it would just seem fair to have all people who receive Tufts diplomas be accepted by the same admissions office, even if it's not by the same criteria -- obviously fine art students and liberal arts students wouldn't be judged by the same criteria. In this case, the problem is that SMFA kids are accepted by a completely different institution! The real question here is: why doesn't the SMFA grant degrees?</p>

<p>And comparing this to Barnard/Columbia isn't the most apt comparison. It is more apt to compare this to the Brown/RISD partnership.</p>

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<p>“I am a good reason not to come to Tufts ;-)”</p>

<p>Actually you’re a great reason <em>to</em> come to Tufts. You accepted criticism with poise, grace and maturity!</p>

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<p>...or Oxford College and Emory maybe.</p>

<p>Anyways, I kind of see where Lolla is coming from with this. I'm not sure why someone would care just about what the words on a degree say but I am sure that an Arts degree is yes, an INFERIOR degree. Life sucks, get over it. Some people like the folks who worked their asses off in high school to get into a school such as Tufts and then worked their asses off again to get the degree are in most instances SUPERIOR, either genetically or otherwise, to folks who loaf around all day and doddle and wind up with the same degree. Well, nominally the same degree anyways since its intuitive that an arts degree is about as impressive and meaningful as an baked potato. Again, folks out there know that degree doesn't mean ****.</p>

<p>It's just the fact that pot smoking hippies are able to leach of the Tufts name that drives even me, someone who really doesn't like this school a whole lot, to the brink of psychological breakdown. Seriously, stuff like this just breaks my brain.</p>

<p>I'm just so tired of living in Oprah's world of relativism where really smart folks like those that frequent this board are somehow chalked down a notch and told that their degree is no better, no worse than someone who finger painted all day long for four years. So *<strong><em>ing tired of that *</em></strong>. It's wrong, straightup.</p>

<p>Now I'm thoroughly for folks living the life they want to live and all that. I'm also thoroughly against the notion that a degree necessarily makes your lifestyle better than anyone elses. The fact of life is some folks work in factories and other folks go to school depending on what abilities they have. There's no right or wrong in this respect. Bob the factory worker does his thing and works just as hard in his life than does a Tufts student...</p>

<p>...what is wrong however is giving Bob a Tufts degree and saying that his work is no different than the work done by a Tufts student. That we should treat Bob's opinion on IR the same way we would treat someone's opinion who studied IR for 4 + years. That is a ****ing ridiculous, putrid way of looking at the world. It's disgusting man, and that's exactly what's being done with the whole SMFA degrees at Tufts. NO, I don't care what your parents told you, your Arts Degree isn't worth a fingernail compared to folks who dedicated 4 years to an actual study, who are abnormally intelligent and who will become productive members of society while you continue to fail at all these things.</p>

<p>Seriously, you have GOT to be ****ting me. Tufts giving REAL degrees to SMFA students? </p>

<p>Lenin would be proud.</p>

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<p>Kofi000, if you are going to acknowledge Lolabelle for her beliefs and opinions, don't you think that I have the same right to an opinion, especially if I clearly articulat the basis of my beliefs?</p>

<p>I did feel that she was being a bit much in her beliefs. I did not mean to attack her personally. She may be a fine person.</p>

<p>Lolabelle, I never meant my post to be a personal attack nor should it prevent you from posting again. I don't want to squash your creativity and beliefs. However, I would suggest that you copy your post and place it in a file for the future. I would bet that in 10-20 years or so, you will have a big laugh over your early life beliefs . Most people change profoundly over the years, and I am sure that you will too.</p>

<p>Lolabelle also notes,"It's just tough to deal with when you worked so hard and had none of that to ease you in. I guess I just have to learn to deal with it."</p>

<p>Lolabelle, I guess you are learning one of life's lessons: life isn't fair. There are plenty of people who will get the same or even better advantages while working less. Some people will get promoted in companies while doing lessor or inferior work because of their connections or people skills. Life isn't fair. In fact, life is a game. The winners learn to not only cope but turn the game to their advantage. </p>

<p>A great saying originated many years ago and is still true today: "youth is wasted on the youth."</p>

<p>Now Rightbackoutyou is a different person. Read over post 32 by them. I never read such ignorant trash as in post 32. The truth is that art folks are NOT just finger painters. They are the expression of civilization. All of our advertising, special effect, beautiful works are directly or indirectly related to art. I can't imagine living in a world without it.</p>

<p>I truly belive, Rightbackatyou ,that you must be at the insufferable teenage years ( or very early 20's) where you currently think that you know everything. In point of fact, art, design and architecture majors work harder than most majors. They have huge hours of studio time and also have plenty of work outside of class. </p>

<p>I will use Carnegie Mellon as my example since I am familiar with their programs. CMU has a LOT of smart, hard working kids. However, if you ask them about the design or art kids there, they will tell you that these kids put in plenty of all-nighters. They work like dogs.</p>

<p>At most schools the architecture kids work so hard that there are cots in the design school for them. Many of the design kids work almost as hard and have almost as long hours. You are very, very wrong if you think that art and design kids don't work like dogs, especially if the design program is a highly ranked program. You may not believe me, but if you truly do your investigation at schools like Pratt, CMU, and perhaps SMFA ( although I am not familiar with SMFA), you would come to a different conclusion.</p>

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<p>"All of our advertising, special effect, beautiful works are directly or indirectly related to art. I can't imagine living in a world without it."</p>

<p>Well said taxguy!</p>

<p>"Life beats down and crushes the soul and art reminds you that you have one."
Stella Adler</p>

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<p>Well, you spoke like a gentleman/woman so I'll take it easy on you here for th moment.</p>

<p>You ever looked at any recent architecture? Be it office buildings, museums, theatres, etc.? </p>

<p>It's minimalist garbage. Shoot, go to downtown Boston, New York or any city that's been built upward in the past 75 years and tell me different? It's all international style dude, all of it. Actually, the combination of Red Scare and Hitlers seizure of power in Germany caused pretty much ALL socialists/communists to leave Europe in the 20's and 30's. Guess where they came?</p>

<p>The Communist conception of architecture is unmistakably prevelent in every single American city. I could go into this for ages but minimalism carried the day, we all know how Communists felt about art and that type of vision is present in every single American skyline to this very day. The "expression of civilization" bit doesn't hold alot of water mate, both because of what I've just stated, because history and reality will tell you otherwise, and because literature, philosophy, science...even something like foreign policy are tremendousely better indicators of what a society is like. To take the most obvious example look at Nazi Germany and their type of neo-Classical architecture. Unquestionably some of the most grand architecture the West has seen in quite some time...hardly an expression though of what was arguably the greatest collapse of humanity in the history of human civilization.</p>

<p>You're just straightup wrong man on every concievable level. I'm not going to get into a war of hear-say with you because my best friend goes to CMU so this could go on for years, but what's the point really? An Arts degree is an absolute joke and it betrays the type of committment to REAL education that Tufts should be trying to strive for. </p>

<p>Trust me kiko, I've lived in whole houses of art students. They're bringing this university down. And again, I don't like Tufts all that much, but I would never try and question the effort at least most folks put into their degree. It's not even an oxymoron, it's a complete contradiction of reality to have SMFA students receiving the same degree as folks who've put themselves out there and nearly killed themselves in intense study just to put themselves into a position where they can contribute to this world.</p>

<p>And that's what Tufts is all about and what you art students seem to forget. Tufts is a school geared to public and I guess also, global service. That's what the course load is tailored to. Art students simply don't live up to that goal plain and simple.</p>

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<p>Rightbackatyou notes,"You ever looked at any recent architecture? Be it office buildings, museums, theatres, etc.?
It's minimalist garbage. Shoot, go to downtown Boston, New York or any city that's been built upward in the past 75 years and tell me different"</p>

<p>Response: I am not competant enough to argue about archtecture; thus, I contacted a well-known architectual friend of mine for a response.</p>

<p>He noted that although architecture does seem to ebb and flow with the trends, there are many buildings and architects that are FAR from being trendy or minimalist in any way. In fact, due to trend changes and due to possible malpractice, there are few buildings in the US that he considered "minimalist garbage." </p>

<p>Have you heard of Frank Lloyd Wright? He has some of the most innovating designs in the world. Since you mentioned New York City, go to the Guggenheim Museum, which was designed by him. There is nothing traditional about it.</p>

<p>You also note that most buildings were affected by communist influence. This, according to him, is patently untrue. Many of the skyscrapers that you see in NY were built before communism took hold in Russia and before Hitler even came to power in 1933 and were very innovative at the time. </p>

<p>Have you heard of I. M Pei. Check out his work. Check out others such as Peter Eisenman, who designed the School of Design, Art, Architecture and Planning at the University of Cincinnati.</p>

<p>My friend told me that he could mention dozens of architects throughout the ages and the world for you to check out. He simply suggests that you take a course in architectual history in order to see what has changed and what innovations have taken place over the ages. You would be amazed if you approach the course with an open mind.</p>

<p>As for non-architecture, every artist is different and has their own special finger print on their work. Just attend any art show, and you will see dramatic differences from artist to artist.</p>

<p>Check out any work by Michaelangelo or Divinci. Their work is truly devoid of anything minimalist. They show incredible genius and superb attention to detail. Salavadore Dali has some of the most unusual and magnificant paintings in existance. Check out Richard Estes, who paints with such realism that I would bet you would find it hard to tell if his work was a painting or a photograph. There is so much more that you are missing with such a close minded attitude.</p>

<p>I would strongly suggest that you take one art history course. It would open your eyes. You are attending a top school in liberal arts. Open up you mind to possible new ideas and new ways of thinking. Your insular thinking is very sad.</p>

<p>Let me note that I am not an artist. In fact, I can't draw a straight line with a rule. However, I do believe, Rightbackatyou. that you are short changing yourself and your life with such a close minded attitude. Take advantage of the suggested courses. After all, enlightenment is what the college experience should be about! :)</p>

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<p>Taxguy: There's really no point in arguing with him. He needs to mature and find something that makes him happy until he can finally leave his life as a malcontent and his "insular thinking", as you aptly put it. We're talking about someone here who thinks that philosophy, math, engineering, and the classics are the only subjects worthy of study. He'll have to learn on his own that the arts have very deep things to offer, just as much as math does. He has to learn on his own, too, that blanket statements are not an apt way of forming intelligent an argument; also, he will learn to admit that he is not always right.</p>

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<p>lolabelle, well said.</p>

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<p>I can't believe I'm doing this, but I'm actually going to aid RBAY in his argument, even though I don't totally believe it. (And I do agree he needs to mature and stop being a malcontent.)</p>

<p>I do believe that artists, architects, etc can be hard working, intelligent people who contribute greatly to society. However, I kind of agree with him about <em>most</em> modern architecture. RBAY clearly stated that he is not impressed with recent architecture. The examples you gave, Taxguy, aren't recent. Frank Lloyd Wright lived from 1867-1959. And the examples of great artists you gave are from 500+ years ago. I think RBAY would agree that those were great artists.</p>

<p>Anyway, sorry to contribute to the resurrection of a thread that should perhaps be allowed to die.</p>

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<p>"there are few buildings in the US that he considered "minimalist garbage.""</p>

<p>Matter of opinion really, but to say that American architecture on the whole is generally not minimalist is not true I don't believe. Shoot all I've learned about architecture has come from classes here at Tufts. S'not like I'm just making this up. Boston for instance has maybe one of the dullest skylines of any city in the world. NY isn't that much better aside from it being gargantuan even though a few of those buildings (Empire State Building, Chrysler Building, etc.) that went up before the influx of socialist inspired architecture are able to give NYC's skyline some character.</p>

<p>"You also note that most buildings were affected by communist influence. This, according to him, is patently untrue. Many of the skyscrapers that you see in NY were built before communism took hold in Russia and before Hitler even came to power in 1933 and were very innovative at the time."</p>

<p>Well, the aforementioned NY skyscrapers did go up before that influx of socialist artists and architects, yes, but notice how the idea of putting a "point" (don't know the actual term) on skyscrapers died out completely for like a 60 year period after those buildings went up. I'm not lying about this homie, there are magnificant pieces of architecture in New York city (assuming we're talking now exclusively about buildings that've gone up in the past 100 years or so) but my point is you have to look for them. For every Gughenheim there's like 325 international style buildings that are nothing but a steal frame and glass.</p>

<p>You know how Communists viewed art, except for Trosky maybe, and that approach wasn't very different in architecture either. It's the whole notion of not trying to glorify the mundane work being performed on the inside of the building by putting up some facade of grandeur. Conservation of materials, etc. But above all that style is cost efficient which is why it's remained popular for quite some time now.</p>

<p>I just can't believe after this conversation you'd think I don't know anything about architecture. I might not know as much as an actual architect, but I know more than well over 99% of the population at large. I'm not blowing smoke up your ass man, lol. I've actually read quite a bit of stuff on art in general Trotsky, Tostoy, Hegel, Nietzsche read all their writings on art...I know quite a bit about art man.</p>

<p>I'm not saying art doesn't have a role to play, I'm just saying it's not as indicative of a culture as you think it is. I also question the rigor of the courses. But yeah, I will check the recommendations out :)</p>