<p>^ ^ ^ Thank you for your first civilized argument, whether or not I agree with you, I appreciate it.</p>
<p>...because he's just plain wrong!</p>
<p>Major requirements for the School of Museum of Fine Arts can be found here:
<a href="http://www.smfa.edu/Programs_Faculty/Undergraduate_Degree_Programs/Bachelor_of_Fine_Arts.asp%5B/url%5D">http://www.smfa.edu/Programs_Faculty/Undergraduate_Degree_Programs/Bachelor_of_Fine_Arts.asp</a></p>
<p>Basically, they are 84 hours of studio art, plus English, humanities, social science, one science course, and electives. </p>
<p>Studio art is NOT architecture. It involves "fine art" in the sense of painting, not architecture.
See, <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Studio_art%5B/url%5D">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Studio_art</a></p>
<p>Arch requirements at Tufts:
<a href="http://ase.tufts.edu/bulletin/architectural.html%5B/url%5D">http://ase.tufts.edu/bulletin/architectural.html</a>
Look - math, science, and engineering requirements! Architects are usually required to either have an engineering/arch degree, or get a master's. Either way, they are NOT fine artists.</p>
<p>The issue of whether or not "artists," as defined by TaxGuy, work as hard as Tufts students is moot. The "artists" in question are studio artists, who do painting, sculpture, and the like. They are NOT architects, who are required to take intensive math and science courses and are admitted either through the School of Liberal Arts or the School of Engineering.</p>
<p>It is disingenuous to imply that SMFA students are contributing something to Tufts that would not be there otherwise. Tufts is, proudly, not a school of one-dimensional individuals. All Tufts students are multi-talented - athletes, leaders, writers, poets, dancers - having more than academic prowess is a requirement of admission into the University. </p>
<p>Given that the Tufts diploma implies high GPAs, high SAT scores, and a host of other talents, it is tremendously sad that SMFA students are not likewise required to be academic superstars. The fact that they are good artists should not make them immune to the rigour of Tufts admissions, no more than an excellent softball player should be able to get in the door without passing through Bendeston. </p>
<p>As for athletes, legacies, etc.... yeah, y'all are talking about me. I'm a legacy whose high school track times put her near the top of the Tufts runners. I was also at the top of my high school class and had a 1550 SAT.</p>
<p>Fact is, the drama and dance kids at Tufts are also excellent students and highly intelligent people who were standouts in high school. We can attract those students - why pretend that we can't attract the academic all-stars who can also do amazing things with art? What, because painters are all touchy-feely, they should be treated differently from the drama, dance, softball, a cappella, oboe, and poet students that Tufts attracts? </p>
<p>--</p>
<p>On a different note, Snuffles & Lola - if you're around, drop me a note - would love to meet up for coffee. (Which is why I meandered by the Tufts thread, found this nonsense, and responded.)</p>
<p>Hey, why aint you invite me for coffee yo?</p>
<p>"I was also at the top of my high school class and had a 1550 SAT."</p>
<p>Congratulations!</p>
<p>A full quarter of Tufts students SATs are lower than 1330. What's your point?</p>
<p>I also appreciate Rightbackatyou's civilized argument even though I don't buy it for one minute. However, it isn't worth trying to further argue this issue here.</p>
<p>As for Ariesathena point that "Given that the Tufts diploma implies high GPAs, high SAT scores, and a host of other talents"</p>
<p>Response: Yes, a host of other talents! You said a mouthful. These kids that get into SMFA have to have strong talent exhibited by a strong portfolio. I don't see many Tufts students with the strong porfolio required by stand alone art programs. In fact, these portfolios take a huge amount of time to complete, which detracts from the studying necessary to do well on the SAT. </p>
<p>Ariensathena also notes, "Given that the Tufts diploma implies high GPAs, high SAT scores, and a host of other talents, it is tremendously sad that SMFA students are not likewise required to be academic superstars"</p>
<p>Response: First, who says that all or even most SMFA students are not academically great. Second, colleges are about DIVERSITY. Every major college and university extols diversity. Having people who are very artistic and proven with strong portfolios would certainly add a lot to any university. This is especially true if Tufts kids can take courses at SMFA.</p>
<p>You also imply that math, science kids have it much harder than the poor artists. I was a physics and math minor;thus, I do have some understanding of this, whereas my daughter is a digital design major.</p>
<p>Yes, Physics and math are more sophisticated in a number of ways; however, I know of no physics major or math major who works as hard as many of the art majors. My daughter is a good case in point. She regularly is required to work until 4AM finishing projects. She not only must be a strong artist for digital design, but she must thoroughly understand all Adobe software and many other computer applications and has to take a number of programming and computer oriented courses as well. She clearly has to work harder than I ever had to work in Physics. Trust me on this.</p>
<p>Although I can't speak for the painters and illustrators, I would imagine that they work very, very hard honing their abilities too.</p>
<p>You also note, "Given that the Tufts diploma implies high GPAs, high SAT scores, and a host of other talents, it is tremendously sad that SMFA students are not likewise required to be academic superstars" </p>
<p>Ariesathena also notes that they were a legacy with 1550 on the SATs.</p>
<p>Response: First, goody for you. There are plenty of athletes, URMs,legacies and sons and daughters of donors who probably didn't have the same stats. George Bush got into Yale with 1200 SATs and Harvard Law School. You think that only Yale and Harvard admit folks like this. Spare me!</p>
<p>Frankly having solely a high SAT and GPA shouldn't be the only criteria for admission. In case you aren't aware of this, colleges have been using a holistic admission process over GPAs and SATs. There is a big thread in the parents forums about Asian discrimination at top schools since Asians need higher SATs for admittance than other racial groups. Livewise, URMs need lower stats for admission than other racial groups. I don't see you whining about this.</p>
<p>Finally, I applaud Tufts desire to partner up with a stand alone art program, which I truly feel enriches everyone. </p>
<p>There is one final, bottom line that was not mentioned by me. Colleges are BUSINESSES first. Let me repeat this: Colleges are businesses. They will admit the son or daughter of any donor who contributes enough money. They will also try to expand their student base if it results in more revenue. Most private schools are as Tufts. I am also sure that awarding Tufts diplomas to the SMFA kids brings in a lot of extra revenue too.</p>
<p>Harvard tries to be very inclusive and be part of Cambridge and not just "in Cambridge." Almost anyone can take courses at Harvard and even get credit. If they do well enough, they can even get a degree. Harvard is particularly open about this. Harvard also has a number of special programs that award diplomas and certificate programs where people can use the Harvard credentials even though they never took an SAT. Harvard does this specifically for people in their own business. I guess they want more donors!</p>
<p>Yale, on the other hand, is in New Haven but not "of New Haven." Yale is very exclusionary and doesn't try to benefit their surroundings. I guess you feel that Tufts should be more like Yale. We will end this to agree to disagree.</p>
<p>by the way, ariesathena, I love the name that you use here.</p>
<p>Stupid question of the day:</p>
<p>If the art students are so talented, why can't they come in through a Tufts admissions process? We separate out engineering and liberal arts, presuming that there are different admissions standards (engineering being less holistic and more focused on math/science prowess); why not have engineering, liberal arts, and fine arts? Much as engineers aren't required to be as diverse or interesting as liberal art students, FA students would not need the same academic credentials as LA/EN.</p>
<p>I resent the notion that people are too busy painting to do well academically or on the SATs. If you're too busy during high school to hack the SATs to even a 1200, why would you be able to handle Tufts courses when you're in the Fine Arts school and taking 84 hours of studio art? While you snarked at the idea that Tufts students are multi-talented, I think you're deliberately ignoring my point. I never said that all Tufts students are good enough artists to have amazing portfolios, but they do have good resumes, filled with extracurricular activities and community service. I am continually impressed by the young men and women whom I interview. (Of course, you then turn around and argue for holistic admission. My point is that Tufts students are admitted under holistic procedures, and are still academically talented.)</p>
<p>I mentioned my SAT scores to make a point: that you can bash legacies all day long, but, statistically, they are on par with their peers (roughly +/- 20 SAT points either way, depending on the year). The one or two students who may not get in anyway are hardly worth complaining about, given that they are statistically insignificant and their families provide a ridiculous amount of money to the school, which ultimately benefits all students.</p>
<p>Stupid question #2: How can this bring in extra revenue if the tuition is 1/2 the normal Tufts tuition and also paid out to the Museum School? ;)</p>
<p>Response to your last statements:
-No, I don't want Tufts to be like Yale. You are missing crucial points, though. Harvard does NOT award a "Harvard College" degree to people who complete its extension school programme. You get a Harvard Extension School diploma. Tufts can follow that lead. </p>
<p>-Believe it or not, it isn't elitist, snobby, or exclusionary to question why Tufts is doing this. Given the host of other options to include the Museum School but to also ensure that Tufts diplomas are given to Tufts students, it is only common sense to ask - "Why this mechanism?" Tufts can:
1) establish a triparte fine arts/liberal arts/engineering admissions system;
2) do what Harvard does and give a separate diploma, although one still carrying the Tufts name; or
3) at least indicate on the diploma that it was obtained through SMFA.
So WHY this mechanism? The above mechanisms do NOTHING to undermine the Tufts-SMFA relationship, but do ensure that the diplomas are an accurate representation of what really happened. </p>
<p>-I'm downright confused as to why you would want to see me "whining" about URMs. I'm not, nor do I. URMs aren't admitted through the Hispanic School and then given Tufts diplomas. I am ALL in favour of holistic admission and creating a diverse class. That doesn't mean that I think that all means justify the ends. I'm not going to insult my tremendously talented friends and suggest that they "only" got into Tufts because of their race. OTOH, it's clear that the art students "only" get a Tufts diploma because of their art skills, with academic qualifications playing a questionable and unknown role. Yes, they may be strong students in high school, but we don't know that, because they weren't reviewed by Tufts admissions. The Jumbos here aren't saying that holistic admissions is bad or that everyone needs a 1400 or whatever - we're just saying that, sure, be a great painter, but, if you're getting a Tufts diploma, you should have also had Tufts assess your academic qualifications to get in the door. I think that you may be attributing a more extreme position to us than we are taking.</p>
<p>-Thank you. :)</p>
<hr>
<p>RBAY: Because I don't coffee with people who say "ain't," and I'm not in the mood for drinking Pabst Blue Ribbon down by the river while chewing on some hay through a gap in my teeth. Now, if you asked why you weren't invited to join "y'all," well, that's a different story (one that would involve Kentucky bourbon, I'm sure).</p>
<p>I am a Tufts alumna and my daughter is a student in the combined degree program.</p>
<p>Tufts has had this relationship with the SMFA for many years. There were SMFA students in my classes thirty years ago. If these students couldn't cut it academically, then this program would never have lasted as long as it has.</p>
<p>By the way, Tufts also had a School of Occupational Therapy where the admissions requirements were much less selective and I don't remember anyone saying that these students didn't deserve their diplomas from Tufts.</p>
<p>I am extremely disappointed in your elitist attitudes which are based on ignorance. Tufts has benefitted from its relationship with the SMFA, the students have access to an outstanding range of arts classes that can only be found in a handful of colleges. My daughter could have gone to almost any college in the country, she had extremely high SAT's, grades and was a National Merit Finalist, but she chose Tufts because she could take courses at the Museum School. This program attracts many talented students that might otherwise go somewhere else since Tufts does not offer a studio arts major.</p>
<p>Jacksonmom, your argument is alright, but lolabelle's main issue was not with combined-degree students.</p>
<p>I agree with a lot of what's been said by lola, RBAY, aries, etc.</p>
<p>I'll also add that I did some art in high school, and put together a portfolio for college admissions. I didn't apply to any arts programs. I applied to universities, and I think I presented a pretty well-rounded application: good grades in hard classes, good SATs, select choirs, piano study and a performance at Carnegie Hall (I included a recording of the piece I played there), editor of lit mag, science teams, latin dance, varsity tennis, whatever. The point, I believe, that people are trying to make is that SMFA students can be AWESOME artists, but they shouldn't be given Tufts degrees if they don't have an application to back it up. If you're a great artist, you should be at a great art school. You shouldn't get to graduate with a degree from a school that expects academic excellence in ADDITION to talent in other arenas. Like, what I'm trying to say is, that there are plenty of Tufts students who were strong artists in high school, but they probably got in based on a combination of factors, including academic achievements. These people have ONLY art, but for some reason get Tufts degrees. It seems unfair, when other people were probably rejected from Tufts with their credentials.</p>
<p>Also, I think the comparisons to URMs and athletes are stupid. It's not like a black kid is going to an affiliated all-black college (not a historically black university; i'm suggesting, like, a hypothetical segregated school), which he got into for being black (but not having any good grades) and graduating with a Tufts degree. The comparisons are ridiculous. (Also, this paragraph is not intended to be racist or anything. I loves me some minorities, lol.)</p>
<p>And another thing - telling lolabelle she shouldn't be indignant about this because "life isn't fair" <strong><em>ed the *</em></strong> out of me. Shut up. I call ******* on that, I'm sorry. Like, any time you get upset that the system is screwing you over, you just have to deal with it because "life isn't fair"? That's retarded. Do you know how many people would have never taken the initiative to change things for the better if they just accepted that life wasn't fair? You probably WOULD have my hypothetical segregated university mentioned before.</p>
<p>P.S. aries, how come I wasn't invited for coffee?! I go home for a weekend without my computer and I'm all forgotten :(</p>
<p>How could students be admitted based on their art talent when Tufts doesn't even have a studio arts major? Who would judge their portfolios? I'm not sure what the history is behind this relationship between Tufts and the SMFA. I'm guessing that Tufts saw the SMFA as a way of bolstering their studio art offerings. Most LAC's and small universitites do not have the resources to offer extensive studio art courses. Swarthmore for example only offers about eight courses even though they supposedly have a studio arts major. The School of the Museum of Fine Arts probably has close to a hundred courses. Tufts students benefit enormously from access to SMFA courses. It is only fair that the SMFA students benefit also. I believe that when I was going to Tufts, the SMFA students did receive their degrees from the SMFA, but somewhere along the line the relationship changed and Tufts decided to start issuing the diplomas.</p>
<p>I'm not sure what you are so worried about. There are only 20 combined degree students that are admitted every year. The combined degree program is so rigorous that approximately half of the students drop out and change to a single degree program. There are probably only 100-200 students from the SMFA that receive degrees per year. It is such a small population that it does not "demean" your degree in any way. SMFA students only take their core requirements at Tufts which means that they are not in any upper level courses. Tufts students can always benefit from being exposed to a diversity of experiences and viewpoints, you seem to be proving my point on this board. You are fortunate to be taking classes with gifted artists, some of whom are already showing their work in galleries in Newbury St. When you are older you will be proud to say that you were in classes with these artists.</p>
<p>Once again for those who miss the point:</p>
<p>NO ONE is complaining about the Tufts/SMFA affiliation. What we ARE complaining about is that the diploma doesn't seem to reflect the very different curricula and admissions standards.<br>
*Engineers take, inter alia, four maths, about 8 sciences, 12+ engineering, lab, various engineering elective, and a few liberal arts courses. They get engineering diplomas. They applied to the School of Engineering.
*Liberal arts students take 10 major courses plus distributions (6 foreign language, fine arts, writing, natural science, math, etc) requirements. They get Liberal Arts diplomas and applied to the school of Arts and Sciences.
*SMFA students take 21 studio art courses + some Tufts courses. They get a Liberal Arts diploma and applied to the Museum School.</p>
<p>That doesn't make sense. Give them a SMFA of Tufts diploma, and everything is aligned and makes sense. You get your diploma from the school you applied to and attended. It can still be the "Museum School of Tufts University." </p>
<p>Last time I checked, it's not elitism to ask that Tufts be internally consistent. (Please note that I am the world's biggest fan of internal consistency. It's the engineer in me.)</p>
<hr>
<p>Blurinka: want to meet up for coffee when Snuffles and Lola are around?</p>
<p>If you didn't like the fact that Tufts issues diplomas to SMFA students then you didn't have to go to Tufts. This is a relationship that has a long history and was started long before you decided to go to college.
Obviously Tufts feels that it benefits their students as well as the SMFA students. Have you ever heard of Howard Gardner's theory of multiple intelligences? Most art student have extremely strong spatial skills. These skills aren't tested on the SAT.
Your assertions that SMFA students couldn't get into Tufts has not been backed up with any concrete facts. Just because someone chooses to go to art school does not mean that they couldn't get into a selective college.
My daughter's experience has been that her friends from the SMFA can more than keep up in the classes at Tufts. In fact some of her friends have been getting better grades than her, much to her chagrin.
I just went to the December Sale at the Museum School today, and there was one room that was filled with fantastic art from some of the Museum School's more famous alumni, like Jim Dine, Ellsworth Kelly and Nan Goldin.
Other famous artists, Robert Rauschenberg, Claes Oldenburg, David Hockney, Chuck Close, and Jonathan Borofsky had donated art to raise money for the school. Obviously this school is held in very high esteem by the art world.
I happened to look up the biographies of some of these artists. Most of them were obviously extremely strong academically because they had gone to schools like Yale, University of California at Berkeley, Carnegie Mellon, etc.
Your view of an artist as being academically inferior is the worst sort of stereotype. To be a sucessful artist today you have to be extremely intelligent and technically skillful.</p>
<p>I would love to. It's too bad that our previous coffee arrangement a year ago never happened!</p>
<p>You guys are just jealous that SMFA students get the Tufts diploma without meeting Tufts selective admissions requirements. But you really have no idea how many of these students would have gotten into Tufts. You can't assume that just because they didn't apply to the combined degree program, then they wouldn't have gotten into Tufts. Most students don't want to take five courses a semester for five years to get two degrees. If the SMFA kids can't pass the courses at Tufts, then don't give them the diploma. They can pass the courses and therefore they deserve the Tufts diploma. Their requirements may not be as stringent as the Tufts requirements, but they have to take 21 art courses in addition to the required academic courses, far more than you have to take for your major. Do you realize that every art course has twice the number of class hours as your academic courses? Most kids put in extra hours outside of class too. When I was visiting Brown with my daughter, the Brown students were in awe of the RISD students. They realized the time and effort that they put in to become competent in their field. The fact that you don't have the same attitude says more about your ignorance about what it means to be an art student and an artist.</p>
<p>Jacksonmom: I'll say it again because you continue to refer to the double-degree program. None of us have any problem with kids admitted to the dual-degree BFA/BA program. Those kids were admitted to BOTH Tufts and the SMFA simultaneously. Not that this means much, but my boyfriend is in that program.. ANyway, the problem we're talking about is the SMFA students who are accepted to the SMFA ONLY and who still get Tufts degrees. It does not make sense.</p>
<p>And my problem really stemmed out of the fact that some snotty SMFA kid told me he used a "backdoor" to get into the school I worked hard to get into. And the fact that he told me his high school GPA was 2.0. And that he only goes to studio classes 50% of the time. Stoned. Just one example -- I mean, my boyfriend doesn't do that; your daughter might not either -- but, still.</p>
<p>Yeah, we're jealous! It's unfair. How is it fair?</p>
<p>The Museum School students get a BFA degree from Tufts, not a BA.
That implies that they met different requirements to get their degrees.</p>
<p>You know, if you followed a similar train of thought, then the Tufts medical, dental and veterinary students might feel their diplomas were demeaned because the Tufts undergraduates were admitted under less selective admissions requirements.</p>
<p>Tufts is a university. There are many different kinds of students that go there. That is to everyone's benefit. The admissions standards may be different for the various schools and departments, but who cares? After a certain point it's how you perform in college. It's time for you guys to grow up and stop obsessing about your high school GPA's and SAT's.</p>
<p>All the med, dental, and vet students were accepted by TUFTS UNIVERSITY. They get Tufts diplomas.</p>
<p>The SMFA students were accepted by THE SMFA. They should get SMFA diplomas.</p>
<p>If Tufts doesn't have a fine arts program THEN WHY THE HECK is it giving out BFAs?</p>
<p>Why is our argument seemingly complicated to understand?</p>
<p>Well said,Jacksonmom. I find it unfathomable that some students here feel that the SAT is the "be all, end all" for admission. There are multiple forms of intelligence. Being a strong artist, having fabulous spacial perception, being highly creative and even having strong people skills are all forms of intelligence that aren't tested on the SAT. The SAT also doesn't test for common sense too. </p>
<p>Would you all feel better if all the art students came through the admission's office of Tufts and submitted their portfolio and had the same GPAs and SATs needed now in the SMFA? Why would that be any different? </p>
<p>Tufts made a decision, and a wise one in my opinion, that the skills and talents acquired by fine art students who submit strong portfolios override any SAT requirements. If they can do well in Tufts liberal arts courses and also do well in their fine arts program, Tufts obviously feels that this is good enough. This policy has been around for a long time. </p>
<p>Frankly, I think that Tufts is lucky to have such as fine artistic institution associated with it. It encouranges stronger students to apply to Tufts since Tufts now has a very strong art program available to all of its students. I can't think of too many top schools that have this advantage. Most top LACs and top schools have a few art courses offered and not the hundreds available as with SMFA.</p>
<p>Personally, I believe that it enriches all involved. My only reservation, which is why my daughter didn't attend Tufts, is that the SMFA is a 45 minute drive from the school in ideal weather. This is a bit far for the students to commute.</p>
<p>I find it quite appalling that those of you with these wonderful SAT scores don't appreciate this. Jacksonmom is quite right about the Brown kids being in awe of the RISD kids work ethic and strenuous demands. Any Brown kid that I met who knows about the work done at RISD will gladly tell you that RISD kids generally work much harder than most Brown kids, especially in the freshmen year. I would bet the same can be said of the SMFA kids when compared to Tufts.</p>
<p>Lolabelle seems to be upset because of the one kid who got into SFMA supposedly with a 2.0 GPA and doesn't work hard. Lola, haven't you met kids at Tufts who are sliding through either drunk or not taking their course load as seriously as possible? Does everyone at Tufts have the same work ethic? I would seriously doubt that, and I would give you odds anytime on a bet that what I am saying is true. One kid does not make a statistical population. Besides if this one kid doesn't take their art studies seriously, they will find little future in the art world. </p>
<p>Art kids know that their studies directly can impact their future job performance. This isn't as direct a correlation with undergrads at Tufts. Thus, most art kids that I know work as if their very livelihood depends on it, which may well be the case!</p>
<p>I guess that this whole issue is a function of maturation. Everyone who believes that I and Jacksonmom are wrong, please copy your posts, and place them in some sort of permanent file. You will be quite amused by your views in about 20 years or so.</p>
<p>It's not about SATs. Yes, it would help assuage my feelings about this if they were at least accepted by Bendetson Hall. </p>
<p>And maybe it was unprofessional of the professor to tell me, but one of the senior tenured professors in the art history department here at Tufts told me that the SMFA students who take academic classes in his department here are renowned for getting the worst grades in all the classes. And that's supposed to be their area of expertise, yet IR majors or engineers at Tufts still get better grades. This professor is fiery and hilarious, and known to exaggerate, but I believe what he says is at least somewhat true, because of what I've observed in my art history classes.</p>
<p>Well, I know from my own experience that there are Tufts students that go to class stoned, if they go to class at all. And not all Tufts students are getting 4.0's. You are angry about the back door comment. I don't think there are too many kids going to the SMFA because they see it as getting a Tufts degree that they couldn't normally obtain. Most students at the SMFA are there because they are artists. Yes, it's very nice for them that they have the benefit of the wonderful teachers and classes at Tufts. You also have the benefit of the wonderful teachers and classes at the SMFA.
My daughter was able to go to New York City over Veterans Day weekend with her painting teacher who not only took her to his show at a gallery in Chelsea, but escorted her and the other students to many galleries and introduced them to the gallery owners. These are the kinds of opportunities that Tufts students could be experiencing. There are some extraordinary artists at the SMFA.You should be very proud that Tufts is affiliated with this school and the Museum of Fine Arts. These two institutions are well-respected all over the world. It enhances Tufts' reputation to be affiliated with them.</p>
<p>I agree with everything you said but I still don't think that the SMFA degrees should have Tufts written on them. Not until Tufts either adopts the SMFA completely and it becomes the Tufts School of Fine Arts or it creates its own BFA program. The end. Good night, farewell!</p>
<p>P.S. My boyfriend and I went on that field trip. It was fab.</p>