Question about Tufts granting SMFA degrees

<p>The arguments advanced by TaxGuy and JacksonMom amount to this:</p>

<p>1) the SMFA is beneficial to Tufts... we're just too stupid and naive and short-sighted to realize this.
2) We're all elitist snobs.
3) Anything that changes the status quo would completely undermine the relationship and destroy the affiliation.<br>
4) We shouldn't be debating this, because we're just being mean-spirited. Unless we immediately launch into activism (this thread was started what - three days ago?), we should just sit down and shut up. </p>

<p>If that's all that you guys have, then face it - you're being ridiculous. </p>

<p>If you think that the status quo is justified because SOME methods of changing it MIGHT be detrimental, then we will never agree. If you think that the status quo is entirely justified because of some unquantifiable benefits, then we will never agree. I don't buy those arguments in this situation and I certainly don't buy them in any other arena of life. </p>

<p>Some of us - in life - see a problem and consider how to fix it. Last time I checked, that doesn't mean that we should be patronized by snooty parents who pat us on the head and say, "Well, it's really for your own good anyway," as if that means that there is never any room for improvement and we are just little kids who don't know better. Such crap. </p>

<p>TaxGuy and JacksonMom have yet to explain why designating the SMFA degree as an SMFA degree - i.e. like NEC or the School of Engineering - would obliterate the relationship between Tufts and the MFA. (Let's be fair - "Bachelor of Fine Arts" isn't really explicit.) I suspect that you cannot justify your stance because it is completely indefensible. Tufts benefits by having an engineering school; I would hardly say that, as I applied to it separately and took different degree requirements, my diploma should read "Tufts University School of Arts & Sciences," lest the engineering school cease to benefit my alma mater.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Don't front. You ain't aint fly like that, lol.

[/quote]

:p ppppttttt</p>

<p>ariesathena (sigh), re-read my post 101. I am not saying what you are attributing to me. I especially did not say that you shouldn't try to change the status quo IF YOU ARE RIGHT. I advocated some activism on your part. See my post numbered 91.</p>

<p>I do think that you folks are not mature enough to see the advantages though, and certainly are not seeing it from the point of view of the Tufts administration. However, maybe I am the one who is myopic.</p>

<p>I suggest that you publish an article for your local school newspaper and get someone good to publish a rebuttal. Let the chips fall where they may.</p>

<p>If this bothers you so much, why don't you ask the Tufts administration why they give Tufts degrees to all SMFA degree students? I wasn't the one who decided to do this. :-)</p>

<p>I have noticed lately that the SMFA is not listed as a separate art school.
I am suspicious that they are basically part of Tufts and are no longer a separate school. That would be one reason why Tufts might be awarding the degrees. </p>

<p>I'll check with the SMFA about this at some point when I have the time.</p>

<p>Yes, I wonder about all of this, too. Does the SMFA just not have the ability to grant degrees? Or does it just not want to? And if it's become more of a Tufts than a separate school, then why aren't the BFA admissions in Bendetson Hall? And shouldn't the school's name change to say TUFTS if the DIPLOMAS SAY TUFTS?</p>

<p>I'm not sure exactly why Tufts started issuing the degrees. When I was in college, I'm pretty sure the degree came from the SMFA. My daughter had an art teacher who graduated in the 80's I think, her degree was from Tufts.</p>

<p>If you look at the listing of art colleges in the US News and World Report, the School of the Museum of Fine Arts isn't in there. I'm wondering if it's because it's really part of Tufts now.</p>

<p>It really wouldn't make sense to move the BFA admissions to Tufts. They don't have anyone who is qualified to make decisions based on portfolios. I believe that the SMFA has a group that makes the admissions decisions because my daughter was told that she was unanimously admitted.</p>

<p>Lolabelle and Areisathena, read my post 99 after the words, "Most Importantly." I think it will answer your questions.</p>

<p>Jacksonmom, I would agree with you on your last post,but, if SMFA were now part of Tufts, why would these kids have to be separately admitted to Tufts in order to live in Tufts dorms?</p>

<p>Well, I just talked to the admissions department at the SMFA. They said that the students in the SMFA's BFA program have always received their degrees from Tufts. This is the way it has been for the last 65 years. They receive their degree from Tufts because they take all their academic requirements for their BFA (14 courses) at Tufts. The SMFA has a certificate program where you only take art courses, and those students receive their certificate from the SMFA, not Tufts. The reason that the SMFA is not listed separately on the US News & World Report list of art colleges is that they are considered to be the art college for Tufts University. The admissions department said that if you have any more questions that you are welcome to call. I'm sorry if you feel this is unfair, but this is the way that these two institutions have handled things for many years. There are benefits to both schools and somehow I don't think you will get them to change. You're welcome to try though. :-)</p>

<p>Thanks Jacksonmom for taking the initiative and calling in, that was cool.</p>

<p>I think it's ridiculous that we idiotic Tufts students were labeled as "not mature enough" to understand the benefits of an SMFA/Tufts partnership...when...ALL WE HAD BEEN DOING WAS EXTOLLING THIS PARTNERSHIP'S VIRTUES.</p>

<p>LOL, I understand that Robert Rauschenberg is lauded as a great artist and is in galleries everywhere, I just don't see his work as all that amazing. I'm POSITIVE that I don't understand the value in it - I know he's famous, I just think it's hilarious that he is.</p>

<p>It's all a matter of taste. After I took art lessons for six years, I couldn't believe what he was getting away with. That's actually a famous quote, "Art is whatever you can get away with", haha.</p>

<p>Edit: I also don't understand your argument about how the SATs aren't a good indicator of spatial intelligence, given that I made that argument a few pages ago. But you know what? My solution was, let the students then apply to an art school, where they will be judged based on the strength of their portfolio, and get a degree from that art school. If, as Jacksonmom says, SMFA is just the art school of Tufts, I guess that's exactly what I was looking for: art students being accepted based on their strength in art.</p>

<p>Personally, I am trying to educate myself about contemporary art.
I have been reading ArtNews and ArtForum. They're pretty interesting, but sometimes I feel like there is a lot of bad art in those magazines. One collector was recently quoted in ArtNews as saying that something like 80% of contemporary art is bad. That's why programs like Tufts/SMFA are so important. Save us from bad art. ;-)</p>

<p>From the Princeton Review, on the SMFA:</p>

<p>Average SAT: 1012
Average ACT: 24
Tuition: $23,850</p>

<pre><code>Admissions
</code></pre>

<p>Freshmen Academic Profile
Average SAT: 1012
SAT - Verbal Range (25-75%): 510-650
SAT - Math Range (25-75%): 460-603
TPR Projected Range SAT Writing: 570-690
Average Verbal SAT: 580
Average Math SAT: 432
ACT Composite Range (25-75%): 22-28
Average ACT: 24</p>

<p>Freshman Admission Statistics
Total applicants who are accepted: 84%
Total of accepted students who enroll: 18%</p>

<p>So their scores ARE WAY LOWER than Tufts' as is their tuition (housing notwithstanding). ALSO, NEARLY EVERYONE IS ACCEPTED. AND THEIR YIELD IS LESS THAN HALF TUFTS'. Seems like the SMFA is the safety art school for kids who didn't get into RISD or Savannah or wherever.</p>

<p>Whoa. To me this is the most alarming part:</p>

<p>"Total applicants who are accepted: 84%"</p>

<p>I could possibly see it if SMFA were a difficult art school to get into, for instance requiring an outstanding portfolio or something, but that is clearly not the case if 84% of those who apply get in.</p>

<p>Boring? Elitest? No way. I love the way there is actually discussion here and not 1,000,0001 threads from obsessive teens asking what their chances are. The discussion here has been very lively without resorting to ad hominem attacks (for the most part), which is extremely rare and impressive. If this is a sign of how Tufts people debate, I like it.</p>

<p>That's good to hear. I'm feeling like this discussion is starting to go in circles.</p>

<p>I just thought of something that is sort of similar to the Tufts/SMFA relationship. Harvard has a continuing education program called Harvard Extension. You can get a BA through this program and you get a Harvard degree. There are no admissions requirements for this program. I wonder how the Harvard students feel about that? :-)</p>

<p>A Harvard Extension diploma is basically a night-school diploma. Everyone knows this. It's not the same thing.</p>

<p>Dsiw: thank you! :) (Fingers crossed for you!)</p>

<p>The most alarming part of the profile of SMFA students, IMNSHO, is the average SAT math score. 432? SMFA students are required to take a math and a science at Tufts, right? While I will always argue that the SAT is an imperfect measure of how well someone will perform in college, the general trends are obvious. I simply do not see how a student with a 400 score could manage to pass a math course at Tufts, unless Tufts actually has "math for artists" (i.e. establishes a separate, lower-level course so these students can pass).</p>

<h2>Lolabelle - if SMFA is a safety school for kids who don't get into RISD, then it's hard to imagine how beneficial the Tufts relationship really is - for either institution. </h2>

<p>Re: Post #116. I'll repeat it, because you missed it the first time around: HES students DO NOT GET A HARVARD COLLEGE DEGREE. Their degree is from the Harvard Extension School.
<a href="http://www.extension.harvard.edu/2006-07/programs/undergrad/help/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.extension.harvard.edu/2006-07/programs/undergrad/help/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>[remainder of post edited out - Mod JEM]</p>

<p>Look folks, Here is why I believe that SMFA Students really get Tufts diplomas. I will be guessing, thus, I admit that I could be wrong. However, what I am about to say is logical even though I didn't want to post it on these boards.</p>

<p>I think that we can all agree that colleges around the country try to support art and music on their compus. Colleges also feel a strong sense of commitment about art and music almost to the same extent as they do about diversity and about raising selectivity in admission, at least for private schools.</p>

<p>Also, if you check the average SAT scores and GPAs for stand alone art schools, you will find that they dont' generally have high SATs or GPAs. Art kids generally think differently than most other kids. Admitting them based on the usual criteria of GPA and SATs would probably be a big mistake. Art kids are primarily judged on the strength and breadth of their portfolio, although some art schools do insist on have decent credentials. Check out RISD and MICA who have average SATs of around 1210. Cincinnati's DAAP school also has very decent average SATs and GPAs ,but they don't use portfolios for design majors,which is a big exception from the norm.</p>

<p>I should note that I am both stereotyping and generalizing, which can get me into trouble. Certainly, there are exceptions such as Lola's boy friend. However, a fair review of average SATs and GPAs for stand alone art schools does seem to confirm my hypothesis that art kids tend to have much lower academic credentials than that found at Tufts.</p>

<p>SMFA is a good art school but is not ,in any way, a stand out compared to other art schools except for their painting offerings. and a few other fine arts offerings. They have some of the lowest SAT scores and GPAs when compared to a number of other comparable schools and, as some have noticed, have a very high acceptance rate. This concept is reinforced by ratings. You will never see SMFA/ Tufts art program ranked anywhere near the top 25 by anyone for either undergraduate or graduate programs that I have seen.</p>

<p>In addition, although they do have courses in applied art, they admitted that other schools have better applied art programs when I contacted them a year ago. Thus, many other private, stand-alone art schools are more in demand and have more offerings.</p>

<p>Moreover, they really can't compete for good Mass art students because Mass College of Art is not only a better school overall in my opinion, but MUCH less expensive since they are a state school. Thus, I don't think that SMFA would have survived on its own for long. Obviously, this is conjecture.</p>

<p>By associating with Tufts, numerous advantages accrue to both institutions. First, SMFA gets more potential applicants. This becomes especially true because kids get Tufts diplomas, which is very desirable. They may even get some funding from Tufts.</p>

<p>Tufts wins in that students and faculty have access to SMFA courses. This allows Tufts to entice many more students with the notion of strong art offerings. Although SFMA may not be one of the better overall art schools, it certainly offers more courses than that found in 99% of universities, and I am not exaggerating this figure. This saves Tufts a lot of money because they don't have to establish and fully fund their own art program. The same can be said with Tuft's affiliation with NEC too.</p>

<p>Finally, Tufts wins by helping out a potentially struggling art school, which is within their perceived mission</p>

<p>The key issue, as I reflect on this, is that Tufts doesn't want to formally merge with SMFA because the SAT and GPA scores of SMFA stuents would be much lower, generally, than that of Tufts Kids. No one wants lower overall SAT scores and GPAs for U. S News and World Report rankings. Having separate admission's departments and separate schools, at least on paper, augments both the average SATs and GPAs for Tufts. </p>

<p>This should answer your concerns as to why SMFA kids get Tufts degrees. It certainly is a logical answer.</p>

<p>I'm having trouble posting again, which is extremely frustrating.</p>

<p>Taxguy - I know there are other art schools with better reputations than the SMFA. I'm sure my daugher could have gotten into some of them. The attraction of the SMFA program is that you can take your academic courses at Tufts as we have said before. My daughter went to the top private arts high school in the country (well at least that's what their website claims)
and she has taken quite a lot of art courses outside of school. She has found the classes at the SMFA to be excellent. I'm not sure that Mass College of Art is better, in fact the two schools share some of the same faculty members, but it is definitely cheaper. We are lucky in Massachusetts that we have such a fine state school. I believe that it is the only state fine arts school in the US. Please correct me if I'm wrong though. ;-)</p>

<p>Mass Art is a very well-known art school. I may be in error noting that Mass Art is better than SFMA;however, it is certainly a LOT cheaper to attend MASS Art.</p>

<p>Anyway, I do agree Jacksonmom that very few universities offer a strong art and design curriculum AND strong liberal arts too, which is unique to Tufts, CMU, Yale and Michigan and maybe UCLA. This enables Tufts to really stand out over its competition and especially over all of the LAC and IVY league offerings.</p>

<p>Taxguy, you make an excellent point in reply #120. I am sure you are correct that Tufts would like to build up SMFA (increase prestige, draw more applicants) which would help Tufts, SMFA, and just be doing a good deed for Boston. </p>

<p>Jacksonmom, oh my goodness. If someone is going to not go to Tufts because of something one guy on a message board says, then I say good riddance. That's just silly. Also, I think Ariesathena's objection wasn't about your accuracy, but about how you tend to use your age as a reason for why the folks here should buy your argument. You infer that since you are older, you are therefore by extension wiser. It would be better to argue your point, rather than to try to pull rank. I don't mean to be too critical though, because I am impressed by your and Taxguys efforts here to forward a less popular opinion.</p>