<p>I am looking at my diploma as we speak. Are you looking at your friends' diplomas? :-)</p>
<p>I agree with you that an extra $40,000 is alot of money for the fifth year.
My daughter may reassess the five year program because of this.
The dean at the SMFA said that one of the reasons students leave the five year program is the cost.</p>
<p>No, the SMFA is not giving you a degree. But my point is that Tufts trusts the admissions office at the SMFA. Since they have a LONG relationship, as I have pointed out several times, I'm sure the SMFA admissions officers know what Tufts would find acceptable. They are not going to accept students into their degree programs who can't handle the academics. They also have continuing education classes so many students can go to the SMFA without receiving a degree from Tufts.</p>
<p>Lola, I am both a CPA and Tax Attorney, which is why my posting name is "taxguy." </p>
<p>Your W-2 analogy isn't right because filing requirements are a function of law. However, there are a lot of deductions available to certain groups of people and not others. Self-employed can deduct a lot more things than employees. Middle income people can take tax credits for college that high income earners can't take. People gripe about the unfairness of the system only when their "ox is gored."</p>
<p>Here I don't see any demeaning of your degree in any way. On the contrary, I see the SMFA affiliation as making Tufts more desirable.</p>
<p>Most top 50 universities do not have strong art and design offerings. The only ones that I can think of are: Michigan, UCLA, Yale and Brown and CMU. If you filter out the schools that don't have substantial applied art offerings such as graphic and communications design, you are left with only Carnegie Mellon- period!</p>
<p>There are a number of second tier schools that have strong art and design offerings,but these would be second tier such as Syracuse University, University of Cincinnati, Alfred University and a few more.</p>
<p>In joining with SFMA, Tufts provides all of the strength of a stand-alone art school with a strong university environment. This gives Tufts a very unique selling proposition that enriches the base of candidates for admission and enriches the student environment in many ways. It really does make Tufts stand out. Can't you appreciate this from Tuft's perspective?</p>
<p>Brown kids do get to take courses at RISD,but RISD is on a different semester schedule, which makes it very hard to cross transfer for courses. Here you don't have that problem.</p>
<p>Again, I do understand how you feel. However, upon reflection, I frankly don't feel that Tufts has defrauded you as a result of allowing SMFA kids to get Tufts diplomas, especially because the diploma is a BFA and not a BA. </p>
<p>I think that everyone at Tufts is far better off having access to all of these artistic offerings. Some may not want to take advantage of these courses,but they do have access to them.</p>
<p>Thanks for your great post. I missed it and then went on to make many of the same points myself.</p>
<p>I know that Tufts kids work extremely hard to get into this school and it probably does seem unfair that kids can get Tufts degrees without comparable academics. I'm not sure if they realize the kind of work it takes to get into art school. My daughter started taking art classes in first grade. She spent many hours after school in art classes and many summers attending art programs. She went to a private arts school where they were required to spend 12 hours a week after school in art classes. Then she had to prepare an art portfolio of twenty pieces in order to be accepted into the SMFA.
The kids at the SMFA have worked hard to get into their school too, but just in a different way.</p>
<p>Lola, I have been an iconoclast in many ways. I changed the way english was taught in our county and in a lot of other matters. </p>
<p>If you feel that Tufts is wrong to award Tufts diplomas to SMFA kids then be an activist. Write your local Tufts newspaper about it. Write to the Admission's office. Be active in your education. I may not agree with you,but I certainly feel that you should pursue your views with vigor.</p>
<p>Taxguy, you made some more excellent points.</p>
<p>I probably can appreciate your perspective because I have an MBA. ;-)</p>
<p>As I see it, the SMFA affiliation does make Tufts a much stronger school, as does their affiliation with NEC. Tufts would never have the resources to provide a conservatory. Yes, Tufts has a music department but it probably isn't comparable to the New England Conservatory.</p>
<p>My daughter might have been able to get into more selective colleges than Tufts, but none of them would have been such a good fit. There are only a handful of colleges that are affiliated with art schools. UPenn is affiliated with I think it's the Philadelphia Academy of Fine Arts, the New School is affiliated with Parsons. At some universities like NYU, you can't double major across colleges, which is a problem for students interested in academics and art.
My daughter had applied to UCLA and University of California at Berkeley, but her first choice was definitely Tufts. We talked to several Brown students who wanted to take art courses at RISD, but as you said, they found it impossible to fit the RISD courses into their schedules at Brown. It's not easy at Tufts either, since many of the arts courses at the SMFA meet for six hours a day. It takes very careful scheduling.</p>
<p>Have fun at the NQR tomorrow night. The weather should be good for it this year. :-)</p>
<p>
[quote]
Lola, I am both a CPA and Tax Attorney, which is why my posting name is "taxguy."
[/quote]
</p>
<p>
[quote]
Lola, I have been an iconoclast in many ways.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Taxguy, you responded to me twice, but the person who wrote those posts was Ariesathena. I've been watching a movie at a friend's house... Came back to find a flurry of posts. I'll have to look at them in the morning; too much for 3 am.</p>
<p>I want to note that the NEC gives its degrees with NEC at the top; again, SMFA is this weird bird that does everything illogically.</p>
<p>Also, before I go to sleep, I want to note a main point here that Taxguy & Jacksonmom keep ignoring:</p>
<p>Jackson mom said:
[quote]
It's a reciprocity arrangement. The SMFA doesn't ask to see your portfolio in order for you to take art classes with their talented students. ;-)
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Ariesathena responded:
[quote]
But the SMFA isn't giving me a degree.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>^^ This is our point, exactly. And please stop talkinga bout how the SMFA makes Tufts a better, more diverse place. We ARE NOT refuting that. In fact, I'd say we all agree. We're talking about DEGREES/DIPLOMAS here.</p>
<hr>
<p>Also, I want to give a shout out to Dsiw! anyway... I hope you get into Tufts this week so we can keep hearing from you on these boards!</p>
<p>Lolabella notes," And please stop talkinga bout how the SMFA makes Tufts a better, more diverse place. We ARE NOT refuting that. In fact, I'd say we all agree. We're talking about DEGREES/DIPLOMAS here"</p>
<p>Response: yes, Lola, that IS the point.If Tufts didn't offer the SMFA affiliation, which means Tufts degree, to SMFA students, there wouldn't be the same affiliation. Because of this, Tufts students can take SFMA courses and count them for credit. Tufts also gets this unique selling proposition that I noted in post 83. This benefits both Tufts and its students and even Tufts faculty that want to take courses at SMFA. In effect, Tufts and SMFA are acting as one school. Can't you see that?</p>
<p>Many colleges form this type of affiliation in order to both beef up their perceived offerings in a subject and to provide a unique selling proposition for their prospective applicants.</p>
<p>Just for the record, a unique selling proposition is a unique reason why a prospective student would want to accept Tufts over other schools. Tufts does have a problem competing with a number of comparable schools such as Yale, Princeton etc. This relationship with SMFA, being able to take SFMA courses, is just one more reason to choose Tufts.</p>
<p>Many schools try to entice applicants with their unique selling proposition. Brown, for example, advertises their relationship with RISD and vice versa. However, this ability to cross register is a bit misleading since their schedules don't mesh. At least at Tufts, you don't have this problem.</p>
<p>John's Hopkins has a very similar relationship with Peabody Conservatory. Peabody kids take their liberal arts courses at Hopkins and get a Hopkins degree, yet these kids take all of their music courses at Peabody. </p>
<p>For years, Barnard kids got Columbia degrees. Only until recent times has Barnard admission equaled that of Columbia.</p>
<p>Lola, I will say this again. If you feel a bit slighted or peeved about this situation, do something about it. I also am addressing Ariesathena. Write an article to the school newspaper, Contact Admissions. Perhaps you can get a signed petition. Frankly, I think that you would be doing both yourself and Tufts a disservice if you manage to change this policy. However, don't just post here, stand by your convictions and try to do something. At the least, ask the admission's office why this policy is in place.</p>
<p>Ariesathena and Lolabelle, as I mentioned, you should publish an op-ed piece in your school newspaper or start a debate at the school. Yale is widely known for doing debates on controversial topics. If you do choose to write an op-ed piece, please PM me for my address. I want to see what you wrote so I can write a rebuttal.</p>
<p>"RBAY: Because I don't coffee with people who say "ain't," and I'm not in the mood for drinking Pabst Blue Ribbon down by the river while chewing on some hay through a gap in my teeth. Now, if you asked why you weren't invited to join "y'all," well, that's a different story (one that would involve Kentucky bourbon, I'm sure)."</p>
<p>Don't front. You ain't aint fly like that, lol.</p>
<p>"Lola, I have been an iconoclast in many ways. I changed the way english was taught in our county and in a lot of other matters.</p>
<p>If you feel that Tufts is wrong to award Tufts diplomas to SMFA kids then be an activist. Write your local Tufts newspaper about it. Write to the Admission's office. Be active in your education. I may not agree with you,but I certainly feel that you should pursue your views with vigor." --taxguy</p>
<p>Ironically, I too changed the way English was taught in my school system. I wrote a petition to the superintendent for less boring English classes and my entire fifth grade class and two teachers to sign. They ended up remodeling the curriculum.</p>
<p>However, I find this really odd coming from the guy who said to deal with it because LIFE ISN'T FAIR! What the hell?!?!</p>
<p>And also, you're arguing that we benefit from SMFA students on campus, making it a more diverse place. But we would still benefit from having the combined degree students, instead of the people who did not ACTUALLY get into Tufts but get to graduate with a Tufts diploma.</p>
<p>I also agree that there are many different types of intelligences, and that the SAT is by NO means a good indicator of whether a person is smart. I know REALLY STUPID kids that did well on the SATs. The SAT isn't an intelligence test, it's a test of how well you can take the SAT.</p>
<p>What I am trying to say is that the people who got into Tufts had lots of things going for them, and one of the things that attracts most of them to the institution is the promise that everyone here has something about them that was remarkable, something that got them in. Maybe they were involved in a research project to cure cancer. Maybe they got good grades and played the violin amazingly despite being a URM from a <strong><em>ty school system. But they applied and they got in, on their own merit. You can dispute their merit, believing that they don't belong here, but that's the admissions office's call. However, the SMFA-only kids COULD have gotten into Tufts, MAYBE - IF they had APPLIED! But they didn't, and yet despite never actually getting into Tufts, they get a Tufts degree. I signed up to go to school with kids who also got into Tufts, not kids who got in via the backdoor. It reminds me of how in high school, you'd have to take prerequisites to get into AP classes, and Algebra II Advanced was taught by the hardest teacher in the school. All the overachievers got B's in her class as a result. Meanwhile, some *</em></strong>**S didn't take the prerequisite, were in Algebra II Regular with an easy professor, and WAIVED INTO AP CALC. So they got A's in those MUCH EASIER classes, STILL got into the AP class despite not taking the prerequisite, and as a result were ranked higher than those who actually took the prerequisite. How can you not be angry at something like that? It's the same thing as the SMFA kids getting Tufts degrees without ever having gotten into Tufts.</p>
<p>If these people are spatial geniuses and unbelievable artists, they should go to an art school and get a degree from that art school. I just think that to get a Tufts degree you should have gotten into Tufts on your own merit.</p>
<p>and LOL about mentioning Robert Rauschenberg as a great artist. Sorry, I don't mean to be mean, but that cracked me up. My Calc class went to the Guggenheim in order to study Frank Lloyd Wright's architecture, and the exhibit there was, as RBAY said, minimalist b<strong>l</strong><strong>. Robert Rauschenberg, I will always remember, was the guy who put up seven white blank canvases next to each other. SWEAR TO GOD. The guide was like, "Notice how this art forces you to look BEYOND the canvas - perhaps you'll notice the shadow that it creates against the wall." I'm sorry, what? I came to a museum in order to appreciate the ABSENCE of art, and instead look at the shadow it creates on the wall? (I ended up writing a funny essay denouncing all the awful art pieces and won first place in the Guggenheim Review competition, LOL. I'll post it if someone wants, not that I'd expect you to. I quoted one of my friends as saying, "I could have made all the art in the Guggenheim with five dollars.") Anyway, years later I was driving past the Met and saw a huge banner that said Robert Rauschenberg and nearly crapped my pants. Also in Tufts' dance department there was an article about how they were making a PLAY out of Rauschenberg's life...I took a pic with my cameraphone and sent it to my friend, and he sent back a picture of a drawing he had done: a middle finger pointing upwards, and beneath it it says "F</strong>K MINIMALIST ART." Anyway, sorry for that tangent, I just thought it was funny that Rauschenberg was listed as a great artist, lol</p>
<p>My feelings about the SMFAers getting a Tufts degree still stand - so I agree with you on that Bluirinka.</p>
<p>However, Robert Rauschenberg is a huge name in proto-pop. Whether it fits your aesthetic preferences or not is one thing. He and Jasper Johns (they were lovers actually) spearheaded that movement.</p>
<p>Here are some interesting facts that might help you understand why Tufts would want to have a partnership with the SMFA.</p>
<p>Brandeis offers 14 studio art courses for the Spring 2007</p>
<p>Harvard offers 21 studio art courses</p>
<p>SMFA offers approx. 200 day studio art courses
and they offer 71 evening and Saturday courses which are open to all Tufts students</p>
<p>Not to mention that the SMFA faculty teach studio art on the Tufts campus during afternoons and evenings. I haven't included these courses in the SMFA total.</p>
<p>The SMFA has 50 full-time faculty and 100 part-time faculty.
They offer 15 areas of studio art.</p>
<p>Most colleges have approximately 4 full-time art faculty
and offer exciting art classes like Drawing I, Drawing II, Painting I, Painting II,
Sculpture I, Sculpture II, Film I, Film II and that's about it.</p>
<p>This is why being associated with the SMFA distinguishes Tufts among all college and universities in the country.</p>
<p>As for your comments about Robert Rauschenberg, most major art museums show his work. He is one of our most famous contemporary artists. I assume that these museums know something that you don't. Many people find it hard to appreciate contemporary art, it doesn't mean that there isn't value in it. It just means that you don't understand it.</p>
<p>Jacksonmom - For the umpteenth time: NO ONE here is saying the Tufts/SMFA affiliation is bad. In fact, we would probably all agree it's GOOD. We're talking about SMFA students being conferred TUFTS DEGREES. Please stop being redundant.</p>
<p>Yes, but my point is that to get these advantages of being associated with the SMFA, Tufts has to give something back. What they're giving back is giving the SMFA students a Tufts diploma. Get it?</p>
<p>We already give them every single academic class their coursework requires.</p>
<p>Jacksonmom, you are quite right. This is the way Tufts gives back. In addition to the courses that you noted above, few of the above-mentioned colleges have any courses in applied art such as graphic design, typography, digitial media etc. At SMFA, kids can get these courses too. Thus, Tufts kids can have access to a lot of stand alone art school offerings without Tufts having to build up its own art department,which is both hard and expensive to do. The price is awarding Tufts diplomas to these kids.</p>
<p>I should also note that I checked on the SMFA liberal arts requirements, which somewhat mirrors that of Tufts. Instead of taking language, SMFA have to take 5 courses in art history. In total, they have to take 14 courses at Tufts. This sounds like a fair amount of courses to me.</p>
<p>Lolabella and others also ask why can't these kids be accepted through the Tufts admission office. The problem is that art kids should NOT generally be screened primarily by an SAT. The quality of the portfolio speaks volumes as to talent and drive. As long as they have a good GPA and quality portfolio, they should make good students. Maybe SMFA should have its admission department physically located at Tufts so that art applicants go to these special admission's officers. </p>
<p>Another reason might be that art kids tend to be perfectionists. This usually results in lower SATs. ( with some exceptions). Let me use my daughter as an example.</p>
<p>My daughter is a perfectionist. She can't turn any assignment in until it is as perfect as possible. When she took the SAT, if she had a problem with a question, she kept thinking about it throughout the test. She just couldn't get it out of her mind, which adversely affected her SAT performance.</p>
<p>Althouigh her SATs were in the mid 1200s, this wouldn't have gotten her into Tufts using the usual Tufts admission process. However, she took 7 courses at her local college ( two were art related) and got a 3.7 overall GPA and had a very strong portfolio. To not admit people like her would have been a loss to both her and the university. From what I can tell, she is also the rule and not the exception for art students, although I do know that I am being a bit stereotypical. However, art schools, even the top ones known for tough academic admission standards such as RISD and University of Cincinnati DAAP, don't generally have very high average SATs for probably similar reasons.</p>
<p>You might suggest that there are schools that use tough admission standards, such as Yale, and still have highly rated art programs. </p>
<p>I actually met a Yale art professor who wished that Yale would take portfolio into account more than thay do and lesson the impact on SAT scores. He implied that the Yale art students aren't quite as good as those found at other top art schools that weigh portfolios more than SATs.</p>
<p>Perhaps SMFA should have their admission's office physically located at Tufts and handle these kids differently from other applicants. I think that SMFA is afraid that Tufts will put too much emphasis on the SAT iif this were to occur.</p>
<p>MOST IMPORTANTLY:
I would guess that there is a more subtle reason; if SMFA were to admit folks through the Tufts admission's office, the overall average SAT scores would decline for Tufts, which no schools wants. By having a separate admission's office apart from Tufts, Tufts doesn't have to include the SAT scores of SMFA students in their averages! This may also be the same reason why other universities such as Hopkins and University of Pennsylvania have the same relationship with their music and art partners.</p>
<p>Think about this.</p>
<p>Again, several have already said that different criteria should/would obviously be used to admit the fine arts students. Stop making your strongest arguments based on arguments we've already agreed with or stated ourselves.</p>