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</p>
<p>Sorry, but you’re proving my point that “diversity” has become meaningless, nothing more than a euphemism for “plurality white, not too Asian, and just enough ‘URM.’”</p>
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<p>See, I’m with you on everything in that list…except racial classification. I don’t see why racial classification is the key driver of “diversity.”</p>
<p>Oh, c’mon. I listed a bunch of things. On several threads, posters have flat-out stated that they just know top schools are so perniciously liberal, so this was a bit of tsk-tsk. You interpret it as you wish, k?</p>
<p>And, nope, I listed all sorts of ways where colleges can build diversity- not all of which even relate to “race.” Where do you get “plurality white?”</p>
<p>I wonder if you see “racial” classification as the driver, because the govt asks for reporting along those lines?</p>
<p>@Shrinkrap, 20more
This may just be in the area I live in, but I find that Koreans are prettier. (The fact that I’m a kpop fangirl may or may not be a factor in this opinion). 
ddukbokki and kimbap are really yummy too. But given the choice, I’d rather be the type of asian I am already.</p>
<p>I’m against AA because I don’t think its doing a good job ensuring diversity. I would define diversity as a mix of different hobbies and talents and personalities, not as a set percentage of races. I’ve a good African-American friend who is more asian than I am and I know a few asians who act really “white”. (I’m looking at you, born2dance94. Yes, there are asian kids who freak out after every test, I’m kind of one of them. We whine, and we b!tch, but that’s like any other race who complains about stuff they suffer in, whether in relationships or school. We don’t want Bs but it’s not like we don’t have lives y’know…) They’re only a few examples, but I’m sure that there are more to blacks than ghetto gangsters who like to talk and laugh really loud in the hallways, and there are more to asian people than study freaks with no lives.</p>
<p>But the AA policy shouldn’t be abolished completely. I agree with much that’s been said about African-Americans that are at a disadvantage because of slavery and other events from a century ago. There are many African-American high schoolers who try at school but aren’t up to par with other races because their parents are too busy working to help them study, etc. But at my school, I’ve seen that there are African-American students who don’t even try at school, just disturb the class, and depend on the AA policy to get into an average-good school, and then there are mature AA students who are obviously trying to succeed and hold prized officer positions in large academic clubs. So basically, the AA policy is good in theory but it largely favors African-American students and allows them to slack off.</p>
<p>I think the biggest problem with the AA policy facing asians is what to do with the average ones. The students with a 3.75 GPA, average testing scores, a social life, etc. The ones that are good enough to get into an ivy league school if they were a different race, but because they’re competing with other asians who have been primed for this moment for their entire life, are being pushed out. </p>
<p>Meh, as you can prob tell, I’m for a merit-based system. Colleges can get diversity from essays (maybe by adding another essay, more personality-based?) or hobbies written on the common app. I’m sorry if I sounded a bit ignorant or if my argument was porely constructed btw, I’m basing my opinions on my experience at school and reading articles on the web.</p>
<p>^^^^</p>
<p>Well female students are better prepared than male counterparts for college. They have higher high school graduation rates and higher test scores. This is simply a logical conclusion: Females are, ON AVERAGE, better students than male high school ones.</p>
<p>Similarly, we can conclude Asian college students are, ON AVERAGE, better students than black ones. I cannot believe that people would argue otherwise. All the statistics point to this conclusion. High test scores, better grades, better graduation rates… You can debate everything except cold hard numbers.</p>
<p>As for the arguments put out for affirmative action (how these people are disadvantaged due to slavery centuries ago), let me point out that rich people focus on the positives and that poor people complain and moan. This focus on the negatives (how whites oppress blacks) will continually doom all those who practice it to poverty. 50-60 Million Asians died in WW2 and were blocked from coming to America until the 1970s. Do you think we b!tched and complain? No. We came over, shut up, and outperformed every single race in America in terms of Income and education.</p>
<p>Read up on some books to financial freedom and about the attitudes of successful people. Give them all copies of financial education books instead of affirmative action.</p>
<p>“there are African-American students who don’t even try at school, just disturb the class, and depend on the AA policy to get into an average-good school,”</p>
<p>That last part I am not convinced of.</p>
<p>“let me point out that rich people focus on the positives and that poor people complain and moan.”</p>
<p>Let me make sure I’m getting this right; it’s mostly poor black people complaining and moaning on cc?</p>
<p>“As for the arguments put out for affirmative action (how these people are disadvantaged due to slavery centuries ago),”</p>
<p>This is why I don’t went to be lumped in as someones idea of “a proponent of affirmative actin”. That doesn’t begin to capture it. Is that on this thread somewhere?</p>
<p>“Read up on some books to financial freedom and about the attitudes of successful people.”</p>
<p>Good idea. Post a few links. And add some references about disparities in income, and income vs. assets.</p>
<p>I would post data on income disparity and income vs assets… but I don’t think income inequality is a necessarily bad. Nor do I wish to give people ammunition so they can play the blame game. Successful people take responsibility for their life. </p>
<p>No one is responsible for the lives of poor people except themselves. Posting links to economic data simply encourages others to flame the “rich.” To this I ask, “how the hell do people expect to become rich if they resent them?” This is why the URM’s are still lacking behind in society.</p>
<p>If you care (yeah, right), it feels like you are lumping "all of “the URM’s” and “the poor people” in to one category, convenient for judging. I like to believe going to school with “the URM’s” and “the poor” can mitigate against that.</p>
<p>Link the books!</p>
<p>PS Income inequality does not equal income disparity. I’m referring to same jobs, different pay.</p>
<p>^^^
This is an Affirmative action thread. We are CLEARLY talking about “race.” See title of the thread.</p>
<p>Your logical fallacy is that you believe equal jobs imply equal abilities. I apply the following logic: Black student gets into Harvard with help from affirmative action and gets job at Goldman because Goldman wants “diversity.” Asian student gets into Harvard while being discriminated against and gets a job at Goldman while being discriminated against. Unfortunately for the black student, Pay is based on PERFORMANCE and Asian Harv grad is more competent. Competent = high on average GMAT score and better work ethic.</p>
<p>“This is an Affirmative action thread. We are CLEARLY talking about “race.” See title of the thread”</p>
<p>Yeah… so? I’m not following. </p>
<p>The good news is, you believe “Asians” get the salary they deserve. I’m glad.</p>
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<p>No, you misunderstood me. I do not see racial classification as the driver of diversity at all; I am asking why supporters of racial preferences think it is the real source of diversity.</p>
<p>Perhaps your question is actually, what makes me think that supporters of racial preferences view racial classification as the origin of diversity?</p>
<p>Easy. They will not accept a ban on the use of racial classification in the public sector. Whenever a state has a civil rights initiative proposing to outlaw the state’s consideration of racial classification, supporters of racial preferences will come out in force and try everything they can to prevent the initiative from appearing on the ballot.</p>
<p>It’s happened in California, Washington, Michigan, Nebraska, and Arizona.</p>
<p>It’s not enough to learn about theories and practices from the comfort of your armchair. At the same time, it’s not enough to simply cite what one knows from one’s own narrow experiences. As in, “Well, the Black kids I know…” </p>
<p>There is a lot of complaining going on here- and, it does seem that Asians often gripe on CC about the overt admissions discrimination thay are subjected to. And, yet, still no school named. </p>
<p>We could harken back to that point about, well, if more qualified Asians apply to, say, Harvard, than qualified URMs, wouldn’t numbers just rolll out that proprotionately more Asians are admitted? But, you truly do not know what makes one kid qualified or more qualified or compelling. All “you” really have access to and the ability to judge are, again, stats. And, I daresay, what your hs peers think of a kid, the high school values: oh, he’s top 5% and president of the Key Club and plays varsity. How a hs person evaluates is not how an adult adcom does, with responsibility for building the right student body in myriad respects.</p>
<p>If all adcoms looked at were stats and rigor, nearly every applicant from, say, Thos Jeff hs in N.VA, would get into every Ivy. But, they don’t. Is that the dreaded racial quota? Haha. Read a bunch of apps for 4 straight hours.</p>
<p>Fab, I already noted my concerns about the term, “racial prefs” and what it implies. I don’t see racial prefs in choosing admits. I just dont. Not preferences. I see an attempt to find, as I noted, after ensuring academic sufficiency, a range of diversity across the campus. The fact that the govt requests info about white, Black, Hispanic, Asian, none, does not mean these are the only highly valued attributes in selecting admits. It’s simply the limited def the govt requires, for its own resons. What if the govt asked for broader info?</p>
<p>
How does a dead person get a green card?</p>
<p>^ I take it that the implication of the quoted statement above is that because east Asian (Chinese and Japanese) persons were largely barred from immigrating to the United States until the early 1960s (that’s the correct timing for when the immigration law was changed) that many persons who might have fled the war zone of the Sino-Japanese phase of World War II in the 1930s and 1940s as refugees were unable to do so. Similar restrictions on immigration in place from the end of World War I to the end of World War II also resulted in the deaths of a lot of Jewish people in Europe. United States immigration law was very uncivilized between the two world wars.</p>
<p>Does anyone know detailed acceptance rate (by race) at Ivy League colleges?</p>
<p>Overall acceptance rate:
White acceptance rate:
Asian acceptance rate:
URM acceptance rate:</p>
<p>"what makes me think that supporters of racial preferences view racial classification as the origin of diversity?</p>
<p>Easy. They will not accept a ban on the use of racial classification in the public sector. Whenever a state has a civil rights initiative proposing to outlaw the state’s consideration of racial classification, supporters of racial preferences will come out in force and try everything they can to prevent the initiative from appearing on the ballot."</p>
<p>So if I don’t do that, am I still catagorized as a a “supporter of racial preferences”?
or “proponant of affirmative action”? Does everybody get labled, or only the folks who seem to spend so much time, effort and/or emotional energy on it?</p>
<p>"Does anyone know detailed acceptance rate (by race) at Ivy League colleges?</p>
<p>Overall acceptance rate:
White acceptance rate:
Asian acceptance rate:
URM acceptance rate: "</p>
<p>You can get information on some schools regarding black and overall admission rates via an annual report published by “The Journal of Blacks in Higher Education”. </p>
<p>Here is one from 2008
<a href=“http://www.jbhe.com/features/61_enrollments.html[/url]”>http://www.jbhe.com/features/61_enrollments.html</a></p>
<p>In some years, for some schools, the numbers are much higer for blacks, but in many schools they are similar or less. I don’t always know how to interpret it becuase I wonder about the impact of a very small N. For example, if 2 of 4 black applicants get in, for a fifty percent admit rate, does that mean the same thing as 200 of 400. I really don’t know. I also expect many, many students are counted twice among the admissions, and that is reflected in the enrollment rates. In my D’s year, she seemed to see a lot of the same kids at all the diversity events and admitted student days.</p>
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<p>So there are no racial preferences, but if racial classification is not considered, then schools will cease to have “diversity”? Is that what you’re saying?</p>
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<p>For whatever reason, I have not made myself clear. I do not, I repeat, do not, view racial classification as the driver behind diversity. I am asking why racial preference supporters believe it is.</p>
<p>A simple question: would the school you read for no longer be diverse if it stopped considering racial classification?</p>
<p>Admittance rates by any category do not correlate directly to yield. Other factors contribute, including fin aid and the kid’s own preferences and needs. Not every kid out there wants to go to the best-rated school that accepts him.</p>
<p>Often on CC, whether it’s a Chance Me thread or just a poster’s random comments, I am surprised how many misread the admissions process. When you’re staring down thousands of apps, what really makes one kid compelling enough to advance and what is truly of value to a kid-savvy adult adcom? It’s not enough to be a top performer in hs- you have to be a top applicant. And, we all realize holistic includes many elements.</p>
<p>So many high school top performers trip themselves up. One of the worst is when the “Why Us” (or any form of that question that seeks to understand how the kid chose to apply) shows a brain blip. I want to go to X because, since I was a kid, I loved NYC. [Not applying to a school in NYC. Not relevant, in any case.] They also say, I want to go to a top college and you are always listed among top colleges. More:</p>
<ul>
<li>I visited (the city another Ivy is in) and felt at home there.<br></li>
<li>I want to major in economics because I love to travel and meet new people.<br></li>
<li>I want to major in astrophysics because, well, honestly, I don’t know if I want to. I think it would be nice to help people. I’ve never taken a class that covered that, but it sounds interesting. [Not knowing what you want is fine, being lame about it is not.]</li>
</ul>
<p>You want more, just ask. </p>
<p>Fab, you’re testing some of us. I said, I don’t see preferences. Nothing that shows me the school prefers Blacks or Hispanics over others. That exclusionary practice would be self-defeating at an academically competitive college. Some Newtonian law applies to top colleges: they seek to maintain their reps and standing, their level of academics, their non-academic vitality, etc.</p>
<p>“Admittance rates by any category do not correlate directly to yield. Other factors contribute, including fin aid and the kid’s own preferences and needs. Not every kid out there wants to go to the best-rated school that accepts him.”</p>
<p>I get that. But I also notice, at least on the “actual results threads” in the AA students forum, that many of the kids who get into one prestigious college, get into several. Of course many of the kids reporting on those threads get into NO prestigious colleges, and many dont even APPLY to prestigious colleges, which I think is much closer to the real world. </p>
<p>My point is, if in fact there are “just” 2000 highly sought after AA seniors, and they all get into 5 prestigious schools, it would inflate the admit rate in a way that it might not in other groups of kids. And outside of those kids, the statistics are quite different. Is that far fetched? I think it is supported by that VERY OLD Esplanade paper that says below a certain SAT score, admit rates for AA students drop quite a bit, even below the admit rates for white students with the same scores.</p>
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<p>Well, I don’t know which school you read for; maybe it does not practice racial preferences. But the language I use is not idiosyncratic; Justice O’Connor used the term several times in [url=<a href=“http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/02-241.ZO.html]Grutter[/url”>GRUTTER V. BOLLINGER]Grutter[/url</a>] to refer to Michigan Law’s policy.</p>
<p>I repeat my question: would the school you read for no longer be diverse if it stopped considering racial classification?</p>