<p>Do you think finances alone explains the entire gap? Or just a small part of it? (In other words, have you found substantive evidence against the claim that blacks have a lower graduation rate due to lower qualifications, or have you just made a petty objection?)</p>
<p>For students at the schools cited, financial issues aren’t relevant because 1) most of the students there, regardless of race, are fairly wealthy and 2) the students who aren’t wealthy receive enormous financial aid benefits so that tuition is quite affordable.</p>
<p>It is implausible that financial differences explain the gap or even a small part of it.</p>
<p>His stupidity led to his flawed reasoning, but his stupidity prevents him from understanding why his reasoning is flawed. Thus, he insists that his flawed reasoning is valid. </p>
<p>(But I don’t mean to pick on him – I can say the same for all affirmative action proponents, only that their flawed reasoning stems from delusion, not necessarily stupidity.)</p>
<p>“Do you think finances alone explains the entire gap?”
No…Statistically, are those gaps considered big?</p>
<p>“Or just a small part of it? (In other words, have you found substantive evidence against the claim that blacks have a lower graduation rate due to lower qualifications, or have you just made a petty objection?)”
Ouch! You are calling me petty? And other posters stupid or delusional? How come Fabrizio can argue his case, and be listened to, without alienating people, and you can’t? I think fiances are more than a s small part of it.</p>
<p>“For students at the schools cited, financial issues aren’t relevant because 1) most of the students there, regardless of race, are fairly wealthy and 2) the students who aren’t wealthy receive enormous financial aid benefits so that tuition is quite affordable.”</p>
<p>Source please. That’s why I asked if it was corrected for income. I am open to new information, and I acknowledge my bias and other shortcomings.</p>
<p>Yes, samples of black students at prestigious schools do average a higher income than those in the average black population, but it seems to me I have read that blacks at prestigious colleges tend to be less wealthy, and have less “net worth”, than other races at prestigious colleges, that they are over represented among the “poor” students there, and that even with “generous financial aid”, poor students don’t have an easy go of things financially. </p>
<p>“It is implausible that financial differences explain the gap or even a small part of it.”</p>
<p>And I should take your word for it because…?</p>
<p>“I can say the same for all affirmative action proponents…”</p>
<p>Have you identified anyone on this thread as “an affirmative action proponent”?</p>
<p>* 1) most of the students there, regardless of race, are fairly wealthy and 2) the students who aren’t wealthy receive enormous financial aid benefits so that tuition is quite affordable.*</p>
<p>Where do you get this info?<br>
Maybe it’s time for transfers to let us know his/her role- parent. GC, student, or close to admisisons.</p>
<p>Oh and this: believing that not all URMs are subpar does not automatically make one a “proponent” of AA. Gawd. </p>
<p>Now someone can go look up the % of kids at Ivies who are on finaid.</p>
<p>From your posts, I fail to see any rationale for racial preferences. So-called “underrepresented” minorities have amazing, mindblowing applications that are as good as, if not better, than applications from whites and Asians.</p>
<p>So I ask you, again, what’s the point of having racial preferences?</p>
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<p>I always sigh and shake my head whenever I read this. It’s as if some people are ashamed of saying, “I support racial preferences.” I disagree with the policy, but I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with supporting it, much less anything shameful!</p>
<p>I can back up the observation that sometimes academically qualified students don’t complete college because they run out of money. I knew people like that in my college days. According to my reading, that is still a common phenomenon. </p>
<p>As for how people form attitudes about college policies and about the governmental regulations that influence college policies, I certainly am willing to ascribe goodwill to people whose attitudes differ from mine, and I’m also very willing to acknowledge that there are thoughtful and vocal advocates for positions that differ my personal position. In my role as one person among billions in the world, I am wary of governmental policies that categorize groups of people smaller than humanity as a whole. (I understand that nation-states occasionally need to deal with the category of “citizen” as contrasted with “noncitizen,” but nearly every nation-state has a multiracial, multiethnic group of citizens.) My personal concern about people being regarded as grouped into arbitrary groups, rather than being treated as individuals, is precisely that then the group designations develop “secondary meaning” and become disparaging references to collections of individuals who don’t all share the same opinions and experiences and who are not all alike. </p>
<p>As of one of several volunteer moderators here on College Confidential, I encourage people to look for data, and to check factual statements against the best sources they can find. Be open to the possibility of learning from people who disagree with you.</p>
I totally agree with all of this. Saying as @transfers2010 did, that Asians are ALWAYS better than Blacks, is plain prejudice, ethnocentrism, and frankly bordering on racism.</p>
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<p>1) I’m a girl. But I guess I do have to thank you for not pushing a sexist agenda (based on my username) as well as a racially prejudiced agenda.</p>
<p>2) I’m not “delusional” nor am I “stupid.” In fact, I HIGHLY take offense to the fact that you referred to me as both. </p>
<p>3) Yet again, it’s offensive that you keep implying that Asians are the best applicants ever. You don’t read anyone essays or recs, so you can’t say anything. In fact, though not all Asian parents are Tiger Moms/Dads (and it would be wrong to imply so), it is true the the majority of really high achieving Asians applying to top schools do have parents with Tiger-tendencies. This often leads to little time for socializing and common ECs like music lessons or tennis.</p>
<p>Out of the top 20 kids in my grade (to which I belong, so thanks yet again for calling me stupid), about 4 of them are Asian (not counting about 3 or 4 others who are Indian… yes I know they are technically Asian). One of them is not allowed to watch TV. Ever. And he only has one other extracurricular, which he is moderately good at, but not that great.</p>
<p>Another (the one I mentioned before who last week said he’d want to kill himself if he doesn’t get into his dream Ivy) wrote all of his essays blatently bragging about himself. They were rambling and honestly annoying to read because he kept talking about how great he is and all the little accomplishments he’s made. I know this because he was showing them off and made me read them.</p>
<p>Another is the sweetest person ever. Too bad she gets severe panic attacks before every test because she’s terrified of doing badly. I dont know how that would affect her application, but I think I accurately showed with the others how a top scoring Asian may not get into a school because the other aspects of their application (essay, ECs, etc) could be cliched or not up to par.</p>
<p>On the other hand, the URM I’m closest to is also at the top of our class and just won a national scholarship for his grades/test scores. I may not like him too much bcause he is pretty obnoxious (lol) but at least he is hard working and deserving of wherever he gets in. He is very involved in a few ECs, one of them being a sport at which he excels.</p>
<p>So you’ve got to expand your thinking and not assume that everyone is out to disadvantage the Asians in the application process. Yes, they may have lower acceptance rates, but they have around equal or more percentage representage in most colleges as they are represented in the national population. I wouldn’t want to go to a school that had 40-50% of one ethnicity, whether it was Asian or even URM. Colleges want diversity, and an entire class of high-achieving Asians wouldn’t deliver that, even if they all had the highest test scores and grades.</p>
<p>"I always sigh and shake my head whenever I read this. It’s as if some people are ashamed of saying, “I support racial preferences.” I disagree with the policy, but I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with supporting it, much less anything shameful! "</p>
<p>When you read what? A question about who has identified themselves as supporting affirmative action? I don’t see myself as for or against, and so I was curious about if and how I have been identified. I see myself as learning from these threads, and sharing my perspective, which I think is related to my race, (and for the record, NOT my income.) I don’t think that makes me for or against. Am I wrong? </p>
<p>Last night I watched a documentary on the History Channel about the Viet Nam war. I watched it without sound, and tried not to read the closed captioning, because it was making me so sad, and I didn’t want to start bawling on the treadmill at Golds Gym. I don’t know how anybody could look at war footage from the last fifty years, and tell themselves race doesn’t matter. But maybe that is just me. I am willing to own that. </p>
<p>So YES, I believe race matters, and I believe it matters independent of income. So maybe that is the same as believing in “racial preferences”. I don’t think that is the same as “being a proponent of affirmative action” as in saying “race should be worth x points in admissions”. Of course that is an extreme view of affirmative action. So is “only stats matter”.</p>
<p>Thanks for your honesty. Here’s the difference between us: I have no problems with attending a school that’s 40-50% “URM” if the “URMs” were indeed the best applicants across a wide range of criteria, both objective and subjective.</p>
<p>Indeed, if that were the case, I would like to attend such a school to learn from and with the best students.</p>
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<p>Can you define “diversity”? What does it mean, really? Are you referring to a wide range of interests and talents? Or are you simply referring to "plurality white, not too many Asians, and just enough “URM"s”?</p>
<p>Well, who am I to dispute your characterization of yourself? Suffice to say that I disagree.</p>
<p>From a positive standpoint, yes, racial classification matters in that people care about it. From my normative standpoint, no, racial classification SHOULD NOT MATTER.</p>
<p>It seems that people in this thread are evaluating how much a student deserves to be at a certain school with faulty reasoning; I do not think it comes down to whites vs blacks, or asians vs blacks, etc. Each school has an idea of how they want their freshman class to look and thus they have certain qualities they look for in each student; it is not a matter of “who got the better score/had more extracurriculars/etc”, all of which are not “objective” evaluations as some are using them as. They are purely subjective.</p>
<p>Also, transfer2010 your statistical reasoning is faulty. Having a z-score of 3.33 does not mean that it is “impossible” for a black student to have a “qualified” SAT score, it simply means that it is highly uncommon. Also, you are using the mean SAT average for all Blacks; this most likely does not reflect the population of Blacks applying to Ivy League and Top-20 schools, as the Asian and White means for SAT do not as well.</p>
<p>Also; have trust in what admissions officers do. Just as I trust a doctor to be able to diagnose my illness, I trust an admissions officer to, well, know what he/she is doing.</p>
<p>Ahhh Fab…if we could switch spots for a bit. You in N cal…me in Georgia…like that Twilight Zone episode. At that quintisential moment…same income… would be at some point after having kids…not sure how old they would be, you would be black, i would be Asian (Korean, please!)…you say race without low income doesn’t matter with regard to perpective, but I think it would change us both. That’s what I believe.</p>
<p>I didn’t say it was impossible for a black student to have an SAT score of 2100; I said that it’s extremely uncommon, far more so than for whites and Asians.</p>
<p>Second, if SAT scores are distributed approximately normally (which they are) and the sample size is large (which it is), then we can use the mean and standard deviation to estimate the probabilities anywhere in the distribution.</p>
<p>Third, the important point is that among people who score above 2100 on the SAT, an extremely tiny proportion is black. This proportion is so small that blacks would have a lower acceptance rate than whites and Asians even if far fewer blacks applied. (Interesting fact: Differences in means are magnified in the extremes.) I pointed this out to counter Born2Dance’s fallacious reasoning.</p>
<p>Anyone can define the generic sort of diversity as they wish- at some colleges, it means having French majors as well as neurobiologists, soccer players as well as dancers, robotics kids and kids who’ll sing and act, just for fun. Kid of different colors and ethnic backgrounds. Diversity can even, yes, include minority political opinions (minority at that school) or religious views. In general, admissions folks know all about what’s offered at that school and all the institutional factors they need to take into account- reputation and standing, all that money invested in new labs, the need to build up program x, whether or not they’ve got enough female STEMs or kids from the rural west. Even whether the sole bassoonist is about to graduate. Whatever. Btw, the CA folks considered whether to add LGBT to the identity section (referenced in an IPEDS report I saw. Believe you can also google it.) </p>
<p>Fab, are you saying you disagree with Shrinkrap’s self-characterization? That really adds some smoke to the room, I’d say. </p>
<p>The phrase “racial preference” is misleading. In part because scientists and social scientists now dispute whether characteristics such as skin color or facial traits are sufficient to distiguish different “races.” (I leave you to google that. It is interesting.) And, in part because “preferences” suggests a clear, committed desire to advance one group. One set, the preferred group or groups. </p>
<p>I am more comfortable with the term “diversity considerations.” As in, “Should there be diversity considerations in admissions decisions at, say, an Ivy?” Oh, now it’s circular- see line 1.</p>
<p>I am an advocate of merit-based selection at top schools, tempered by a holistic and college-specific definition of merit. I am also an advocate of a level of diversity among students- in their majors, origins, religions, political views, hobbies, causes, party style, and on and on…yes, including what some refer to as “races.” Though I would like to see some uniform dedication to studying fit in there, somehow. And, I am not crazy about neo-x groups that wish to harm others. If the govt requires reporting along certain identity lines, perhaps some complaint should also be directed at them.</p>
<p>I was strongly opposed to AA when it first arose. (Remember, I am into merit.) Wow, I have seen first-hand how opportunities afforded some, starting 40 years ago, have paid off. That’s all I’ll say on that. For the moment.</p>
<p>“Northern California sounds so much better than Georgia (personal opinion)”</p>
<p>I agree! That’s why I’m here. Not sure it was best for the kids though.</p>
<p>"Just out of curiosity.
Why Korean but not Japanese or Chinese? "</p>
<p>The food ! </p>
<p>(and the swag. The Korean people I know have “swag” I can relate to.)</p>
<p>But I like a lot of Chinese food (I cant spell the provinces or I would), some Japanese (I am going through an uni phase), and most Viet Namese (sp?) food too. And don’t get me started on Filipino food! Love it! Not sure who thinks Filipino’s are “Asian” though… (smile)</p>
<p>The thing about Georgia (and Nigeria, and Jamaica) is that if you are black, there are many people who look like you, and you can identify as a successful person without “acting like” what you think is something else, I will leave it at that.</p>
<p>“The way in which you carry yourself. Swag is made up of your overall confidence, style, and demeanor. Swag can also be expanded to be the reputation of your overall swagger. You gain swag, or “Swag up”, by performing swag worthy actions that improve this perception. A person can also “swag down,” by being an overall ■■■■■ and garnering negative swag for their actions. Swag is a subtle thing that many strive to gain but few actually attain. It is reserved for the most swagalicious of people. Swag can also be quantified, with point systems existing in some circles of friends.
“I got with two girls last night”
“Awesome dude, that’s some swag”
“I think one of them was my sister though…”
“Negative swag”
…
“I’m digging that strut son, I like your swag”
“Thanks Dad”
…
“I don’t think I can go out tonight, I got too much work”
“Swag up you little *****”
…
“If I finish this pizza in under 3 minutes, can I get a swag point?”
“You really don’t understand swag…do you?””</p>
<p>I find it interesting that you consider diversity of political thought to be somewhat less legitimate than diversity of skin color (“can even, yes, include”). For my part, I have no issues with a diversity of majors, interests, and talents. What I have a problem with is using “diversity” as a euphemism for “plurality white, not too Asian, and just enough “URM.””</p>
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<p>I’m saying that I’m skeptical whenever I read a self-characterization of “on the fence” alongside posts that almost never criticize racial preferences or express even mild skepticism. But I’m also saying that it’s not my place to dispute others’ self-characterizations.</p>