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<p>What about using gender as a factor in admissions in general. The gender balance would be skewed at tech colleges toward men and at LACs toward women if gender were not considered. Isn’t this a form of “discrimination” too?</p>
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<p>In what sense? Academically? Athletically? Socially? And who are “Asians”? </p>
<p>I’m not anti-Asian in the slightest, but I am very fed up with groups jumping on the victimhood bandwagon. “Bamboo ceiling?” Learn to schmooze and adopt the markers of the group you want to get on with. It’s the American way. (Yes, I read that New York Magazine article.) I see no evidence that Asians are systematically discriminated against in the way that, say, blacks were in the pre-Civil Rights era. Advocating riots because some ambitious young person who happens to be Asian didn’t get into the college he wanted, or felt marginalized at a corporate gathering because he couldn’t use sports metaphors, is absurd. I am not trying to patronizing, but I have a strong negative reaction to riot talk. It’s irresponsible and overblown.</p>
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<p>wow now we see how racist you are, that’s not what I was talking about at all. I am talking about the perception that we are somehow uncreative or subhuman, even we drive the research field with our creativity. </p>
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<p>Yes, because it is easy to “see no evidence” when you’ve never experienced it yourself, living like a cozy frog in the well. Chinese Exclusion Act comes to mind; we suffered pogroms and sundown towns.</p>
<p>The Irish Americans rioted, and got their rights; so did the gays at Stonewall, and suffragettes caused mass civil disorder that got them the vote. The Civil Rights movement would have never passed if they had not got public attention through social unrest. </p>
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<p>I’m sorry, I’m happy with my school. I’ve spent four happy years here. </p>
<p>I’m not advocating riots, I’m saying if maybe it will take a riot like every other mainstreamised cultural group in American history in order to correct the injustices arrayed against us, because of the inertia and denseness of society. I might advocate however, mass civil disobedience.</p>
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<p>Yes, I’ve never experienced those things, and neither have you. They happened a long time ago. They are historical injustices, not current ones.</p>
<p>What unique “injustices are arrayed against” you, other than the college admissions issue and an irritating but not devastating cultural stereotype? </p>
<p>I will ignore your childish and juvenile attribution of racism to me.</p>
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<p>We see this double-standard in CC disussions all the time: one side puts forward a an article based on squishy research or as support for something it really doesn’t say, and then challenges opponents to meet the same squishy standard. Did your study control for all the Asians who happen to be women applying to LACs, New Yorkers and Californians applying OOS?</p>
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<p>How convenient of you to say. Let me offer you an analogy – people of Arabic, North African, Turkish and Persian descent in this country face heavy discrimination in the workplace on suspicions of being unAmerican; esp. if brilliant brown-skin programmers with a Middle Eastern last name try to apply to national security. Destructive or inconvenient?</p>
<p>Now take our stereotypes, which have been perpetuated for 200 years. </p>
<p>Btw, it’s not just college admissions, but medical school admissions, which impacts Americans everywhere; labour unionisation; health insurance; street harassment oh did I mention systematic discrimination by local police forces in cities such as New York City, both in hiring and in enforcement?</p>
<p>I will renew my call for carefully gathered evidence about what is actually currently going on in various colleges at various levels around the country. I’d love to learn from any participant here through reliable data what issues are of possible legal concern, the better to bring about further equality of opportunity in the United States, the land of my birth.</p>
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<p>Where is the proof of these allegations of widespread, deliberate, and systematic discrimination against Asians specifically? Everyone’s “discriminated against” in some way. As self-identified Asians tend to have higher educational attainment, higher household income, lower incarceration rates, and generally are doing OK compared to many, many non-Asian Americans, I find your ethnic-based grievance mongering distasteful. And “Asian” is such a huge category, it’s practically meaningless on the face of it. Whom do you define as “Asian”? Vietnamese in Louisiana? Hmong in Minneapolis? Indians in New Jersey?</p>
<p>“the United States, the land of my birth”</p>
<p>hmm…</p>
<p>make me think about many things</p>
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<p>You’ve been played for a fool by people with an agenda. That includes the author and “experts” interviewed in the article and a user here who has been ■■■■■■■■ for lawsuits and discrimination complaints. Of the experts in the article, one is an East Asian genetic supremacist, and the other misrepresented her credentials in this article and in others that she has written on the same subjects.</p>
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<p>Exactly what fact are you talking about? The article didn’t cite any sources for this fact, which is not surprising, because there are none. It is not a “fact”. It is “spin” on one misinterpretation of the Princeton statistical studies, an interpretation that happens to be contradicted by (among other things) several other studies by the same professor. </p>
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<p>Asians in the US R&D industries have been treated very, very well. The Asian supremacist and race warrior quoted in the article says that Silicon Valley is as race-blind an environment as one can find anywhere (i.e., as good as it gets anywhere on earth, not “as close to race-blind as one can get in this diseased society of white devils”). Labor market studies found that, instead of a “bamboo ceiling”, pay differences between white and Asian PhD’s disappeared when controlling for the country where the PhD was earned. In other words, whites, foreign-born Asians, and US Asians are paid the same if they earn their degrees in the USA and other variables are held equal, as far as economists and their regression studies can determine. As pointed out in the survey</p>
<p>A.Sakamoto, K.Goyette, C. Kim
“Socioeconomic Attainments of Asian Americans”
Annual Review of Sociology, 2009, 35:255-76</p>
<p>there has not been any credible econometric evidence of pay discrimination against Asians in the US labor market in (at least) the past 20 years and possibly a lot longer. Their points about endogenous effects are very relevant to the college admissions issue. </p>
<p>(Another interesting thing about these economic studies is that the regressions find small positive or neutral effect on pay of being an Asian male, but large positive effects on the order of a 5-10 percent salary increase, from being an Asian female. Maybe white women should start a race riot.) </p>
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<p>Asians do not “work harder”. They “plan longer”, “cooperate better”, “start earlier”, “accumulate more”, “comply with external standards more readily”, and “make larger investments”, but none of those activities are hard work. It is a well-established point in educational studies, starting from (at least) Dornbusch’s work in the 1970’s in the SF Bay Area, that higher Asian academic achievement is driven in part by the lower levels of part-time work among Asian students. Nor did Asians watch any less television than their lazy non-Asian neighbors.</p>
<p>If you have any reliable indicator that “the system works against” you, please post it. Self-serving Asian rumor mills and viral internet memes are not a reliable source.</p>
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<p>So what did Dr. Sanford Dornbusch say about that, siserune?</p>
<p>[New</a> York Times](<a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/1990/09/11/science/probing-school-success-of-asian-americans.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm]New”>http://www.nytimes.com/1990/09/11/science/probing-school-success-of-asian-americans.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm)</p>
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<p>While I thank siserune for actually citing some specific studies this time, the paper from Dr. Dornbusch is not one of them. According to an [old</a> Time article](<a href=“http://www.modelminority.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=346:the-new-whiz-kids-&catid=34:academia&Itemid=56]old”>http://www.modelminority.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=346:the-new-whiz-kids-&catid=34:academia&Itemid=56), it seems like he (co)wrote a paper in 1984 about San Francisco-area schools, but I could not find that paper, and given my frosty relations with siserune, I doubt he’ll tell me which paper it is, though I would certainly like to read it. (Lest siserune brand me a “data denier,” I don’t deny the possibility that Americans of Asian descent work fewer part-time job hours than other Americans. I’d just like to know which paper it is.)</p>
<p>It would also be interesting to see cognitive psychology experiments telling subjects NOT to think about a certain way to classify people, even objects, then test to see if this actually reinforces the labels and categories.</p>
<p>I can think of a million other experiments!
How about one about how blaming may be attributed to “other”, whatever "other " or “not like me” happens to be.
Language and thinking are dependent on systems of categorizations. </p>
<p>How about anthropological studies of different cultures_ do some emphasize race, appearance more than others. How do outsiders assimilate in a variety of cultures?</p>
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<p>Beware of relying on averages. Haven’t you seen Hans Rosling’s TED Talk? (<a href=“http://www.ted.com/talks/hans_rosling_shows_the_best_stats_you_ve_ever_seen.html)After%5B/url%5D”>http://www.ted.com/talks/hans_rosling_shows_the_best_stats_you_ve_ever_seen.html)After</a> controlling for income and educational attainment, large discrimination effects still remain. </p>
<p>I know this intimately, because I come from a single-parent household where my single mother holds only a vocational degree from Singapore Polytechnic, yet her defence contractor employer (General Dynamics) calls her to do 1st-class designer work on a 3rd-class designer salary, and yet she must deal with union jealousy and rivalry (and sexual harassment) as an Asian woman working in a field dominated by white, incompetent and lecherous men. </p>
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<p>Start with NYPD hiring statistics. 10% of the population in NYC is Asian, yet they only make less than 2% of the police force.</p>
<p>Also</p>
<p>[U.S</a>. Study Says Asian-Americans Face Widespread Discrimination - New York Times](<a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/1992/02/29/us/us-study-says-asian-americans-face-widespread-discrimination.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm]U.S”>http://www.nytimes.com/1992/02/29/us/us-study-says-asian-americans-face-widespread-discrimination.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm)</p>
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<p>Yes, it is genetically and ethnically meaningless. But as a label in this society, it is not meaningless, as United States v. Bhagat Singh Thind and Takao Ozawa v. United States will tell.</p>
<p>Re: Dornbusch</p>
<p>After some (not a lot) of searching, I could only find one paper by Dornbusch that studied SF Bay area high schoolers:</p>
<p>[The</a> Relation of Parenting Style to Adolescent School Performance](<a href=“http://www.jstor.org/stable/1130618]The”>www.jstor.org/stable/1130618)</p>
<p>It had nothing to say about part-time work by ethnicity, and as far as “well-established point[s]” go, Dornbusch et al. wrote,</p>
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<p>So siserune, if you please, I would very much like to know which paper you were referring to. And if your reply is “I could name about a dozen or more,” just name one.</p>
<p><a href=“fabrizio:”>quote</a></p>
<p>So what did Dr. Sanford Dornbusch say about that, siserune?
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<p>Dornbusch said what I attributed to him. You quote Dornbusch about something else (homework) and present it as a refutation, when in fact I referred to those other findings by Dornbusch in our earlier discussions (e.g., Asians spending a much higher number of hours on homework, though I remember the discrepancy as being more than 40 percent and that he had studies with a larger sample size in addition to what you quote from NYT). Whether it’s a 40 or 100 percent difference, a huge gap in homework hours tends to support both the “Asian credentials overpredict Asian abilities” idea and the accuracy of so-called stereotypes of Asian academic behavior. Of course, every other study also supports these stereotypes, including Espenshade’s regression study on utilization of SAT tutoring, or the STEM enrollment data we discussed the last time around this very familiar block.</p>
<p><a href=“from%20NY%20Times:”>quote</a></p>
<p>In studies of 7,836 high school students in the San Francisco area, Asian-Americans spent about 40 percent more time doing homework than did other students - about seven hours a week versus five. ‘‘That is the first and most important reason for the differences: Asian-Americans work harder,’’ said Dr. Dornbusch, who did the studies.
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<p>I don’t believe Dornbusch has ever taken the position that Asian-Americans are more inclined to laborious mental or physical exertion than whites (“hard work”), and indeed he documented greater teen employment rates and parental expectation (or tolerance) of such, in the non-Asians that he studied.</p>
<p>If you really want to know what Dornbusch thinks, then instead of frantically searching for a bogus refutation on the internet, you might peruse his publication list instead. He co-wrote a mass market book, Beyond the Classroom, published about 20 years ago, summarizing at length his studies from the 70’s and 80’s in San Francisco. On the whole it was a work of political advocacy, suggesting that the US should become more Asian in its approach to schooling, including a discouragement of part-time labor by teenagers, though the latter was not the central point. </p>
<p>Dornbusch in his book does not talk much about “hard work”, if he uses that phrase at all. The term he introduces and reiterates dozens of times to capture his message is engagement, as in academic engagement or engagement with learning, and the corresponding word disengaged to describe the academic state of non-Asian (I think he more specifically meant “white”) American teenagers. His overall point is that American culture allows or encourages academic disengagement and this is a national disaster that should be remedied. He also argues that Asians are not crushed psychologically by academic workload or parental expectations but rather that academic success creates psychological robustness and positive attitudes toward school, in a virtuous circle. A Tiger Mom manifesto before its time.</p>
<p>With that as the background, Dornbusch’s comment to the NYT is almost certainly a deliberate and provocative “sound bite” designed to, uh, engage the attention of the readers and scourge the lazy Americans. If you read his papers and his book you will find that his more precise point as well as his study results are quite a bit more nuanced, and it is somewhat dishonest to cite him as an academic source for Asians’ supposed tendencies to work harder. </p>
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<p>I’m not aware of any heavy frost, but I don’t consider myself obligated to respond to requests made in bad faith (e.g., the kind accompanied by pre-emptive editorials that I have made everything up, am a racist, etc) or are generally lazy, such as typing a few characters into a search engine but not doing even a few minutes of research into who Dornbusch is, what his views actually are, and where they can be found. I would expect someone at a major research university with a well-stocked library to be introducing a large number of citations into these conversations, instead of lazily requesting that partial citations all be fleshed out for his convenience or laziness. Work harder in these conversations and you will get better results.</p>
<p>Asians do have a work ethic and culturally they value education highly - but this is too simple a judgement - if you look closer - immigrant fire is also an ingredient in the rates of achievement. Immigrant fire is not exclusive to Asians. My older D went to a specialized high school and a large percentage of the students were either newly landed or first generation. My D as a third generation American was an exception to the norm. It is not that Americans of whatever color or third generation and later cannot excel but without immigrant fire - you can lose the statistical advantage.</p>
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<p>So Dornbusch didn’t say that Asians “work harder,” but then he told the NYT that Asians “work harder.”</p>
<p>And you weren’t talking about homework when it came to “work[ing] harder.” You were talking about other findings that involved…homework. </p>
<p>You’re great, siserune!</p>
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<p>Yep, no frostiness in our relations whatsoever, siserune. You make a “partial citation [sic]” of Dornbusch’s work and when I can’t find the exact book you had in mind due to the “partial citation [sic],” my search is dismissed as “frantic” and what I do find is labeled as “bogus.” But there’s no frostiness here!</p>
<p>Since your post is a tl;dr version of “[expletive] you,” kindly know that I reciprocate your sentiments.</p>
<p>Since siserune was so kind to grace us with a fuller citation, let’s see what [Beyond</a> the Classroom](<a href=“http://books.google.com/books?id=IfPSDE24aScC][i]Beyond”>Beyond the Classroom - Laurence Steinberg - Google Books) has to say about Asians, part-time work, and “hard work.”</p>
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<p>According to Steinberg et al., among ethnic groups, Asians do rank the lowest when it comes to working long hours at a part-time job. Asians also spend the most time on homework, but that doesn’t mean they work harder. But they do “exert more effort on academic activities,” and to say that is not synonymous with “work harder” is extreme pedantry.</p>
<p>So while siserune might not be able to get his story about Dornbusch and Asians’ “work[ing] harder” straight, he’s 100% right about Asians and part-time work, at least for the period in which Steinberg et al. based their statement.</p>
<p>“even Asians applying to community colleges… are affected”</p>
<p>More about THIS please!</p>
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<p>If you mean in the book and studies that I cited, that’s correct. I have not seen any publication, website, interview or other source where Dornbusch was one of the authors and that contains the unqualified generalization that Asians “work harder”.</p>
<p>Dornbusch and his coauthors for the book do use the term “hard work” occasionally but it is in relation to Asians’ beliefs, not their *behavior<a href=“e.g.,%20the%20belief%20that%20success%20derives%20from%20%22hard%20work%22%20and%20not%20ability”>/i</a>. It is not used as a generalized attribute of Asians (and going beyond academics), such as the self-glorifying “we [Asians] work harder” meme that triggered this exchange.</p>
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<p>That’s what you wish were true, but we don’t know what he said, since he was quoted in an excerpt that may or may not be the whole sentence. Longer phrases such as “work harder at school” would have nullified your point, since you are arguing that Dornbusch articulates the generalized “Asians work harder” meme based on his research (or his personal opinions, or whatever other basis). </p>
<p>Not that it matters as far as my citation of Dornbusch was concerned. I wrote that his studies showed less paid work and equal amounts of television watching among Asians and their supposedly lazier non-Asian neighbors. You just discovered that the first statement is corroborated in the book and the second is also there.</p>
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<p>Exactly. I argued that homework and schooling (among other Asian strengths) are improperly labelled as “hard work” and fall instead under the heading of rational-agent economic behaviors, such as “compliance with external standards”, a category in which Asians perennially top the charts. </p>
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<p>In earlier discussions (months or years ago), I cited or alluded to Dornbusch for the findings on homework. His studies supported my contention at that time, and they support a different contention of mine about a different subject this time. It’s not clear what you consider a problem in all that, but I have learned never to be surprised by your capacity for inventing imaginary problems.</p>