<p>P.S. Actually, If there are enough Asians applying to fill a class up 20 times, then ABSOLUTELY YES, they would have a lower acceptance rate.</p>
<p>born2dance94,</p>
<p>You still aren’t getting it. </p>
<p>Assuming race-neutral admission and assuming applicant pools similar to those we see today, Asians would still have a higher acceptance rate than blacks. </p>
<p>The reason this is true is that virtually no black students are objectively qualified to attend elite schools. For instance, a score of 2250 on the SAT (the mean at HYPSMC) is 3.9 standard deviations* above the black mean, which implies that the number of black students objectively qualified to attend those schools is close to zero. Even a score of 2100 is 3.33 standard deviations** above the black mean, which implies that only 1 in 2303 blacks score this high, compared to 1 in 50 whites.</p>
<p>The ratio of objectively qualified Asians to objectively qualified blacks is so skewed in favor of Asians that one would expect them to have a higher acceptance rate even if significantly more of them apply.</p>
<p><em>(2250-1200)/270 = 3.88889, p=1/20792
*</em>(2100-1200)/270=3.3333, p=1/2303</p>
<p>Some numbers about the numbers: </p>
<p><a href=“http://media.collegeboard.com/digitalServices/pdf/SAT-Percentile-Ranks-Composite-CR-M-W-2011.pdf[/url]”>http://media.collegeboard.com/digitalServices/pdf/SAT-Percentile-Ranks-Composite-CR-M-W-2011.pdf</a> </p>
<p><a href=“http://professionals.collegeboard.com/profdownload/cbs2011_total_group_report.pdf[/url]”>http://professionals.collegeboard.com/profdownload/cbs2011_total_group_report.pdf</a></p>
<p>^Thanks for the links.</p>
<p>I had to rely on memory, so I slightly underestimated the mean and variance for black students. Still, the difference that error would make is trivial.</p>
<p>So when it says to “describe your background” as part of the race/ethnicity part of the Common App, is that line the place to describe your ethnicity in greater detail than broad terms like “white” or “Asian”? Also, would being from a rather original white or Asian ethnicity be a slight booster for HYPMS admissions, especially if the university doesn’t have or has almost never had students of that particular ethnicity?</p>
<p>^Almost certainly not. Even if you’re North African or Samoan (two underrepresented Caucasian and Asian groups), colleges will still lump you with all other non-minorities.</p>
<p>That’s actually NOT true @transfers2010. Even if it is not a minority recorded on the common app, being of an unusual ethnicity could be a small boost because you’d be able to offer diversity and possibly a different view on the world because of your culture. So it wouldn’t be official like affirmative action, but if your diversity and its affect on you show throughout your application, it could inadvertedly end up helping you to get in.</p>
<p>^ It wouldn’t help as much as affirmative action partially because en paper it doesn’t say how many Samoan or North African students a particular elite institution has. The statistics that are released say how many black and white and asian etc. students the school has. Those are the numbers that will make the school look good.</p>
<p>But how many North African students are at HYPMS every year? Perhaps one every year or so? I guess it doesn’t help as explicitly but definitely helps paint a coherent picture of you as a multicultural person.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Yes, that is the usual use of that part of the form. Some colleges care about such distinctions, and others do not. </p>
<p>I doubt that students of North African heritage are unusually scarce at any college in the United States–I have met quite a few at my own alma mater, and questions from students of such backgrounds come up regularly here on CC. </p>
<p>Good luck in your applications.</p>
<p>your ‘reasoning’, born2dance, is very illogical.</p>
<p>From many comments on CC, I think people seem to believe that applications reviews are pretty simple- that it’s easily “clear” whether one candidate surpasses another. That can be true if all a college looks at are stats. But, a holistic review takes as much as possible into account. Holistic (especially at a selective college) usually includes the context in which the kid performed, whether he stretched himself or the opportunities were handed to him. Whether that great gpa was at an easy hs or a tough one. Whether, in her presentation, she shows maturity, perspective, focus and energy- or not. The CA is a “snapshot.” Unlike one’s hs environment, where, over time, you get a good sense of who’s academically superior, shows real leadership and character, etc, all the adcoms have about an applicant is in the CA. And, they weigh that against the particular challenges at that college, a host of qualities they are looking for in their admits and a variety of institutional needs they wish to fulfill.</p>
<p>IME, there is no one category of kids- of any identity, from any particular hs, state, income group, etc- that has a lock on the qualities my selective college (Ivy) is looking for. I cannot say that apps from Asian Americans are usually “better” or that STEM kids have pushed themselves harder or that kids from the very best high schools in the country are more competitive in the admissions pool. Each app is its own snapshot. </p>
<p>I can say- and I keep saying- that many of the URM apps (and apps from remote or poor areas or underperforming high schools or 1st-gens) I have seen just blow me away, in all respects.. So, it seems to me so unfair to categorize them as lesser or needing the bar to be lowered.</p>
<p>In the end, you choose whether or not to identify yourself in the demographics section. OP has provided much info to help, if there is some confusion about how to label yourself. But, know that there are plenty of ways to mess your admit chances that have nothing to do with your “racial” identity. That discussion needs its own thread.</p>
<p>URMs from Remote or Poor Area or Underperforming HS or 1st Generation</p>
<p>I am sorry but that is not what I saw.
I only know 1 URM who got into HYP but I know many URMs who got into very selective colleges. I can tell you this. ALL OF THEM were biracial or/and from college educated or/and above middle class families.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>AND ALL OF THOSE ARE FINE! But they do not justify racial preferences.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>What do racial preferences do, then? Not lower the bar?</p>
<p>“URMs from Remote or Poor Area or Underperforming HS or 1st Generation”</p>
<p>20 more, you left out the “and”.</p>
<p>It said “the URM apps (AND apps from remote or poor areas or underperforming high schools or 1st-gens)”</p>
<p>Shrinkrap
You are right. My bad!</p>
<p>20more, I’m curious what your experience is- parent, GC, student, involved somehow with admissions? I don’t dispute anyone who says they only know a few X or that the kids they know of fit some pattern. Even if 10 people saw something similar, when you’re staring down thousands of apps from across the country, there can be a different take. </p>
<p>Fab, the “bar” isn’t linear- not the idea that a 2400 kid is somehow better than a 2200. Both can be adequately prepared, show strong achievements, challenges mastered, personal strengths, drive/focus and great potential to succeed. So, instead, I use the phrase “in range” to represent the stats. Not too many kids make it past the very first review round, if they aren’t within range.</p>
<p>20 more, I am curious about your frame off reference too. I have said this many times; that there are communities out there where apparently “lots” of URM’s" are going to prestigious colleges, and that that must affect ones perspective. Then there are communities like mine, and I think mine is not unusual, in which nobody knows ANYONE who goes to prestigious college, let alone URM’s.( I DO know “several” (five?) students that got into Cal, two Asian, one white, and two AA. I consider that pretty prestigious, but that might be a local perspective.) I also suspect the same 2000 BLACK kids get counted several times each admission cycle, at least based on the “enrolled in prestigious colleges” statistics from blacks in higher education. It makes me think that if it’s “just” 2000 kids, how come folks on CC seem to know so many of them?</p>
<p>And yes Fab, I know you feel even one “undeserving” student is too much.</p>
<p>Here are the 6-yr graduation rates (%) among the top colleges for Asians and Black (data from College Navigator: <a href=“College Navigator - National Center for Education Statistics):%5B/url%5D”>College Navigator - National Center for Education Statistics):</a>
College Asians Black Difference
Harvard 100 97 3
Yale 96 91 5
Princeton 98 93 5
MIT 98 84 14
U.Penn 96 91 5
Columbia 93 89 4
Cornell 95 88 7
Brown 96 89 7
Dartmouth 97 89 8</p>
<p>If one thinks Asians and Black are admitted with the same qualifications to these colleges, please explain why Asian students always have higher graduation rates from these colleges. Black students seem always to have lower graduation rates among all races.</p>
<p>Of course I might be biased (gasp!), or likely “invested in the data”, but one of the most common reasons given is finances. Do you know if that data is corrected for income?</p>
<p>PS Did someone say “same qualifications”?</p>