Because they can’t build fine teams without recruiting or else they would have done it. How in the world is an Ivy going to recruit a top level QB if they cant send him a likely letter? The applicant cant afford to take the risk and will go elsewhere. This reasoning shows a complete lack of understanding the true situation and why the schools don’t care what parents think. You are delusional if you thing Harvard or Yale is going to let either school hammer them year after year in the H-Y Football Game. Those of you who did not attend either school will never understand just how important this game is to the schools and alums. Its sort of like the movie Chariots of Fire where Cambridge is upset that Harold Abrahams is trying so hard to win. They want him to win while pretending it comes without effort because he is a Cambridge Man. But after he wins they celebrate and make a toast to him and feel pride. This is the way H/Y feels. They pretend not to care about sports but deep down inside they want to win because they are highly competitive people. You just need to accept that they will always want to win and will adjust the admissions criteria to make sure they do. For those of you who have never attended the H-Y game it would give you insight about the schools and the alums.
From #916
From #919
So we have an argument that URM families who have been in the US for a long period of time are not disadvantaged, while we also have an argument that URM families that have not been in the US for a long period of time are not disadvantaged. This illustrates what is so infuriating about the concept of “right” and “wrong” URM’s; everyone has a different definition of “right” and “wrong”.
How about there are no “right” or “wrong” URM’s and leave it at that.
@cottontales “Not mentioning names, but a couple of you are just plain racist and cruel.”
Even worse than those comments being racist, cruel, is that they are also NOT TRUE. There is not a scientific basis for those comments.
Muchtolearn I have seen no racist comments and that is a charge you need to explain. What scientific basis are you referring to?
@Zinhead the “wrong” URM’s means the URM’s that are living in higher SES communities, are often not first generation, completely caucasian looking and Americanized, are wealthy, etc.Maybe a grand parent or great grandparent was hispanic or African American or whatever. I think you are taking the word “wrong” too literally. The longer way to say "wrong"would be “the applicants that perhaps AA and other programs giving URM’s a boost might not truly want to target”. And this varies by school. Some schools love the “URM’s on paper but not applying for aid”…where as some schools really want the diversity of a first gen hispanic who grew up in Perth Amboy, NJ. And some schools want both. It’s up to them.
I think people need to stop splitting hairs. For purposes of discussion, sometimes posters have to make generalizations that others are tempted to shoot holes in.
I’m just curious, did you really not know what was meant by “wrong URM’s”? How was it not obvious that it meant the URM’s that don’t need the boost?
So you don’t know any URM’s that may have received a boost for checking a box that hadn’t been “disadvantaged” (I know, now you are going to come back and ask me to define “disadvantaged”)? I know of many. One girl in my daughter’s HS a few years ago looks like Paris Hilton and is very wealthy and got into many top schools. Sure we can never prove that it was because of the box she checked, but if AA or other policies helped her get in, I’m pretty sure that she wasn’t the type of person the program was designed to help.
Should we not reflect back on what URM actually stands for? The R is only about representation, not fairness or deserts. If a school wants to manage their “R” by accepting high SES minority candidates and saving on financial aid, so be it. I agree that does not feel “right” and is more in the letter of the law of AA vs. the spirit, but maybe it is better to challenge that choice vs. challenging the whole system.
First of all not all Hispanics look like Salma Hayek. Visit a country where Hispanics come from and you’ll see. There are Northern European descendant, Asian descendant, etc. Second, the motivation to accept Hispanics and diversity in general is to expose all students to the various perspectives of each other and the more perspectives the better. There are well educated, advantaged Hispanic families but they still share characteristics with all Hispanics. As seen by excerpts from the Princeton Admissions just because a student says s/he is Hispanic they still look for those characteristics in the application and if they don’t find them then the student won’t be considered Hispanic for diversity purposes.
I agree. We’re never going to get where we want to be on admissions, until all racially identifying information is removed from apps before the adcoms get to see them.
Race, the color of your skin or what you look like should play no part in college admissions. But rather overcoming challenges, obstacles. That’s really the question behind the race question.
Rather than are you black or hispanic? (these don’t encompass all the categories of students who have faced discrimination or hardships). The common app question should be: are you a student who has had to overcome significant challenges or have had significant disadvantages? if so, explain here. Examples may include but are not limited to: financial stressors, discrimination based on being a miniority of some kind, immigrant or DACA status, orphaned or foster care or single parent or guardian, because of sexual orientation or differently abled or other?
Significant challenges maybe but why in the world should DACA or most of that other stuff have anything to do with college admissions. How can you measure those things? It’s just not how real life works. Life can never be made fair and the only thing worse is some bureaucrat trying to do so. The current system is imperfect but about as good as it can be.
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@roethlisburger We’re never going to get where we want to be on admissions, until all racially identifying information is removed from apps before the adcoms get to see them.[/qote]
Where do “we” want to be on admissions? Merit (as stats) only? OK to consider some things but not race? SES? What does it look like where you want it to be?
I think the UC apps have a similar question? Interesting idea.
I disagree with @SAY, it’s not as good as it gets presently, we have a long way to go. I don’t want Asians and Asian Americans getting discriminated against. The bamboo ceiling has to be broken thru.
prepped how many Asians were in your kids schools? At our school it was about 35%. Most were Asian rather than Asian American. They did not mix with the rest of the students and sort of created a self created little Asia space. There was no direct ugliness but the Asians pretty much kept to themselves and did not mix with the other students. They mostly spoke in their own language and in many classes took the subject the summer before in CC. The parents were almost completely absent from any involvement in the school virtually donated no money to the foundation. They played almost no team sports. A large percent of these kids in a college would totally alter college as most of us know it. Why it this a good thing? Why should our schools allow their unique culture to be changed? The schools are fully aware of this and it’s precisely why they do what they do. HYPS are private school and have the right to create the culture they feel is best for their colleges. Now to be fair they aren’t bad kids and they test well and do well in school. Probably 80% of the top 40 students were Asians. If you want to see that culture on large scale go visit Japan, SK, or Taiwan. It is not superior which is why so many of them are working so hard to get into American Colleges. It’s a tough issue with no easy answers but it sure is lot more complex than who got the highest SAT score and GPA.
^^^How many Asians are in the schools they didn’t get into is the question. A: too few
That is your opinion and you are welcome to it. May I ask where you went to college? Have you ever spent any time at HPYS or a dozen others? At the vast majority of schools it won’t make a difference but the most elite schools are as much about the culture and future of America as they are about education. America is vastly different than the Asian Countries and in the mind of most alums western culture is superior/preferable. America schools need to preserve their unique culture. And on this issue the progressive and conservative alums mostly agree. Hence the current admission system has developed.The interesting thing is that even the Asian alums agree that the schools should not be changed because it would irrevocably alter the college experience. College is not just about grades.
SAY: “At our school it was about 35%. Most were Asian rather than Asian American. They did not mix with the rest of the students and sort of created a self created little Asia space. There was no direct ugliness but the Asians pretty much kept to themselves and did not mix with the other students. They mostly spoke in their own language and in many classes took the subject the summer before in CC. The parents were almost completely absent from any involvement in the school virtually donated no money to the foundation. They played almost no team sports. A large percent of these kids in a college would totally alter college as most of us know it…”
@SAY if “most were Asian rather than Asian American” then you are talking about international students. This is a different topic from race. But it seems you are using caricature of some international students to stereotype US students who happen to share the same genetics. So skin color determines everything from language proficiency to cultural practices?
jzducol you are a HS student so there is no reason to expect you to know this. Where I live in coastal Ca its a mixture of the children of biotech workers kids, some legal immigrants, and some children that have seen sent here to live in our school district and take advantage of the “free” good schools. They are living with relatives or even renting rooms in the houses of other Asians. These are the parachute kids and it’s approaching 50,000 kids. The fact that you are unaware this is going on does not make it a caricature and it is very real. Your last sentence makes zero sense? Yes being from Asian does mean they are culturally Asian. Have you ever been to Asia? It is a radically different culture
@SAY you are pretty quick to jump to conclusions without any evidence. What information do you have to infer that I am a HS student other than your own prejudice? Frankly, as someone who also lives in coastal Ca I am surprised by your total lack of knowledge in immigration matters and Asian cultures. In your last two posts you said a lot opinions but few facts. I don’t imagine you can speak any Asian language or know any Asians personally. You apparently are not aware of type of visa these “children that have seen sent here to live in our school district and take advantage of the “free” good schools” are on. Let me explain to you—international students who are all F1 visa holders are NOT eligible for free public schools. I know this because I am on their PTO and advise them how to keep their status legal in this country. They either have to pay $20k a year to attend public/private school or they attend school as children of greencard holders. In recent years a lot of green card recipients came to Ca thru investor category which requires a minimum of $500k investment in this country, hardly free loaders. You apparently have a lot of resentment against these international Asian kids who you believe were getting things “free” and bringing in their bad culture, but that is all because of your own prejudice and lack of knowledge.
You registered as a junior member. No one ever said bad culture those are your words but if their own countries are so great why are they all working so hard to come to America. The NYT article points it out and my kids went to a school with tons of these kids for eight years. By the way I’m half Asian but my family came here over 100 years ago legally. But the Asian families are taking advantage of a very lax system which was never intended for them. Next you will tell me their are no tourism babies. American colleges are the best in the world and they are supported heavily by US tax payer and therefore their main focus should remain US citizens. The Chinese government in case you haven’t noticed is a marxist communistic dictatorship and is no friend of America as has been shown in the North Korean Crisis. Please explain to Americans why we would want to give precious places in our colleges to the children of such a country.
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-asian-anchor-babies-wealthy-chinese-20150826-story.html