<p>Speaking of arms race - my kids both had AP credit for math and had a choice between taking a slightly-easier-more-review calculus class and a harder-stretch-yourself calculus class for their first math classes at college. H counseled them to take the slightly-easier-more-review class; enough of an adjustment being away at college, no need to push yourself, you’ve got four years to take all the math you’ll want or need. I initially objected (since I wasn’t that sort myself) but now I believe he was right. I understand the hurry to get to advanced classes if it’s a function of graduating in a shorter time frame and saving money, but if money isn’t an issue, why the arms race to crowd it all in so quickly?</p>
<p>I think “widely seen as” means “widely seen as among the people who bother to think about these things.” If my kid were interested in statistics or enviro science or one of those supposed “low value” ones, I’d have him or her take it and the heck with “what people think.”</p>
<p>AAAAAAHHHHHHH
That just makes me scream. What a head in the sand attitude. Shows no understanding of how far behind the US is to other developed nations related to education. If anything, schools should be figuring out ways to push students more, not make the curriculum “good enough”. I dont care if it is through AP, standard classes, or partnerships, but our students need more advanced and in depth education, not less. </p>
<p>As far as limiting AP’s, students can take online courses and they can take the AP test, no matter what the local school district decided to do. So REALLY motivated kids can continue to take AP classes and still get college credits.</p>
<p>Pizzagirl, I agree with your husband on some subjects related to that too. My son happens to be “good” at math. He is taking math at CC this year, and at least one, if not more of those courses will not transfer. He knows that he will be re-taking at uni. But it is still a good experience, and will hopefully help decrease stress of an already hard class. However, if he has to retake physics, would not be a terrible thing, since he had a terrible teacher.
But for gen ed courses, like history, psych, freshman lit, even languages…if the student is ready for the next level of work, it is a good program.</p>
<p>Yale only gives credit toward graduation for AP’s if a student is using them to accelerate, thus graduating in three years, rather than 4. On the other hand, there are a number of excellent courses that are open to freshmen with 5’s on the relevant AP exam. These might also be open to private school students who have an excellent non-AP curriculum, but for public-school students in most of the country, the AP exam offers the route in, for these courses.</p>
<p>I feel the same way about eliminating APs in favor of ostensibly more challenging, locally-designed classes as I do about eliminating pull-out programs fro G/T kids in favor of supposedly great differentiation in the regular classroom.</p>
<p>For that matter, it is like closing psychiatric hospitals and institutions on the premise that they will be replaced by halfway houses and group homes. The latter never got built, and the mentally ill ended up on the streets. </p>
<p>The fact is that in the vast majority of cases, the promised challenge for those who need it will never materialize. Classes will be taught to the low median. The students who are highly talented academically will continue to go unchallenged, and their needs unmet. </p>
<p>Although there ARE exceptions, the vast majority of people in education administration and the vast majority of teachers were not gifted students, and simply do not fully understand the needs of those who are. They are good, well-meaning people, but they just don’t get it.</p>
<p>APs may not be perfect, but they are better than nothing. (Our local school is now offering both IB and AP…)</p>
<p>For a student who does not intend to graduate early, an introductory level course skipped due to AP or community college credit gives the student a free elective now or later.</p>
<p>A truly great student, who got a 5 on the AP test while thinking it was easy, probably should move ahead to the highest level allowed by the university (if repeating the AP credit, it may be most worthwhile to choose an honors course to avoid being bored). A student who struggled to get a 3, on the other hand, probably has a high risk of failing the next level course.</p>
<p>I have been looking for the elusive “great differentiation” that has been promised for years. I believe that differentiation is a theory, and sounds good. But hard for me to actually obtain proof of existence. Kind of like “every snowflake is unique”.</p>
<p>I think good public schools are well aware of what is a rigorous class and what is a non-rigorous class. There are enough private schools that do not offer AP. so to think that you can’t have a desireable strong 9-12 education UNLESS you have APs is not logical. To think that any class cannot be rigorous without the AP designation is not logical. Perhaps a lesser teacher is a stronger teacher for having a prescribed curriculum but to assume that no teacher can teach an interesting and educationally rigorous class is also not logical. If you believe that AP is the only way to get quality, rigorous education into the K-12 curriculum well then you’ve bought the College Board Kool-aid which they love it when people drink their Kool-aid because they then make lots of money.</p>
<p>What I know is that in MY school district the only way to get a more advanced standardized curriculum that is rigorous is with AP courses. Is it the only way? No. But it is the only thing I can trust in my school district. Sad, but true.</p>
<p>Trust me, I do not like college board. And I hate sending them money for anything!</p>
<p>You also need to look at whether students actually take advantage of the AP credits. My kids could have used AP credits to graduate a quarter or two early, but even at the unreasonable tuition levels charged it was a bad deal to substitute mediocre high school courses for actual University of Chicago electives.</p>
<p>On the other hand, they had LOTS of friends who went to Pitt, Temple, or Penn State and graduated in three years thanks to their AP credits, and were happy to do that. At their school, many more kids got AP credits than went to elite colleges. A lot of college today is remedial high school, as others in this thread have pointed out. AP courses probably aren’t any worse than mediocre real high school courses, which makes them a perfectly appropriate substitute for introductory college courses that try to bring students up to the level they should have been at when they finished high school.</p>
<p>I graduated from high school in the dark ages before AP classes were offered. I was so bored by my high school classes. I would have enjoyed the challenge of the AP classes. </p>
<p>I also feel that you should learn the material well to get credit for these classes. Doing enough to scrape by to get a B minus, which is reported as a “B” and then scored as a 4.0 isn’t doing the student any good.</p>
<p>My proposal: Allow students to take unlimited AP classes. Grade them on a 4.0 scale instead of the 5.0 scale used now. Set a minimum grade in the prior classes to allow entrance into the AP class. Make the AP test tougher (ie. need a more in depth knowledge of the subject is required to pass) and only accept 5s on the test to get college credit. </p>
<p>I believe that the number of students actually taking the AP classes would then be self limiting to those that can really do the work.</p>
<p>Momofthreeboys, what seems to be coming from Race to Nowhere, is not to replace AP with classes of equal rigor, but to REDUCE the rigor our kids are subjected to so that joy can return to their lives, kids can be kids, and we can all sit around as a unified community and sing kumbaya. </p>
<p>My HS kid is a kid, she has enjoyed her AP classes and wants more of them to enjoy. </p>
<p>I would be thrilled if they created some more rigorous classes and offered them, especially in English. In our school you have three choices for senior english: regular, honors and AP. They should create these rigorous classes first before they dismantle what isn’t broken. Then let’s talk.</p>
<p>Also keep in mind that as some school districts (heavily represented on CC) will have an arms race whereby kids take 10+ AP’s, there are plenty of kids at “good” / elite colleges who came from schools that either didn’t have APs at all (as JHS describes) or offered maybe just a few basics - English, history, bio, chem and a language or two. IOW, the arms race to take lots of AP’s is very, very school-specific.</p>
<p>I agree with vlines and classicrockerdad. At our school, if AP’s were reduced, I do not see them adding rigorous alternatives. Some of the honors classes my kids have taken have been easy and the kids learned little. There are a few ‘regular’ classes known to be good - such as an anatomy class. My junior D is thriving in her 5 AP classes, playing 2 sports and having time for other activities. If she attended a private with no AP’s but rigorous classes, I would be fine with it. That is not our reality.</p>
<p>I dunno. By activating his APs son was able to graduate a year early, save us about 55K and begin work in a job he is really enjoying. From my perspective, APs give kids a lot of options. If kids in high school find APs that difficult then they need to accept that reality, process it and let it inform their college applications.</p>