My D’s school has the transfer and AP credit policy revised almost every year. Any policy can be subject to change. What matter is only the policy at the time your credits are being transferred. Taking the AP exam does not start the AP credit transfer procedure, nor does the arrival of score. Once you have those credits transferred, they will remain on your transcript. It does not matter what it was shown before you apply for the credit transfer. In my D’s school, some of the AP exam would only grant half credit unless one takes the next level class and passed with C or above. That was some of the policy change within the last few years. Also, for certain subject, they required the students to take an exam to determine if they would accept the transfer credit for one year, and that has been dropped the next year. Usually, they would have the new policy updated several months before the new academic year. However, it may well be after the AP exam registration anyway. So the school OP mentioned may be a bit late in updating their policy, it is not going to affect the decision in taking which AP course or exam.
I know some high school seniors would skip the AP exam if they found out that course may not get him/her any credit at an EA/ED accepted school though.
I think a university’s integrity code deals with plagiarism, students committing a felony, faculty abusing their authority with students for sexual favors, administrators getting kickbacks from suppliers and vendors, Dean’s speaking to the press about a student which would/could be a violation of that student’s privacy, researchers using chimpanzees in medical experiments without following federal protocols on live animal research, etc.
The AP credit policy for chemistry- for a kid who is a potential chem eng engineer, for god’s sake, strikes me as a bridge too far.
But let us know what you learn.
@al2simon "Based on your previous posts, does your daughter go to a school that starts with the letter “deleted” ?
If so, I was able to pull up an archived version of the old AP credit web page (dated 2/2/2016) where it talked about giving 4 credit hours for an AP Chem score of “4”. It definitely says “2015-16 Catalog” at the top.
The current page says they will give 4 hours of credit for a score of “5”. It says “2016-17 Catalog” at the top."
The reason that I believe it does not cover their butts is that we discussed the AP credit requirements when we visited for admitted student days. We were specifically told that the requirements for incoming students were the requirement s posted on the website. I also discussed it with the Assistant/Deputy chair of Chem Eng. (he said he was representing the Chair who had Laryngitis and was physically unable to speak). His only comment about what she was taking and the AP requirements was to be sure that even though they accept a 4 for AB calculus, that sometimes these students may have some difficulty, and that in his opinion, it is critical for engineers to really knows calculus well, and that he recommends they retake a 4 and even a 5 if they are not comfortable with the material. Nothing was mentioned about students with 4’s on Chemistry having difficulty at all. Based on his guidance, I guided her to focus on being sure to know her Calculus well and make it a priority to get a 5 on AP Calculus. She did that and did get that 5.
I didn’t mention the school because I don’t think the name should color the discussion either way. To me the expectation of a student or parents ability to rely on the Universities representations is independent of the school in this instance, whether it is Harvard, or South-Western, North-Eastern Community College. I am just trying to understand whether this is standard operating procedure, in spite of representations made by the University to admitted students, but I don’t think so.
In my experience of only a few schools, University decisions to raise requirements that they have represented to admitted students and parents and also published on their website, apply to the next class, and are not enforced retroactively. I am not hearing anyone say that they have seen this done retroactively before.
Can she try the old final exam for the chemistry course that she would have been able to skip under the old policy?
If she finds it to be too difficult and thus would be best served by retaking the course anyway, then this battle becomes one that is not worth fighting for this particular case.
However, the college really should have put the changed AP credit policy on its web site last spring, and its faculty should not have misled the OP when the specific question about chemistry AP credit was asked.
Are they also requiring the 5 for placement? Can she still jump to the next course? It would be nice to have the credits, but at the end of the day if she’s in Chem Eng she’s still going to need the sequence of courses and still going to need 120 (or whatever) is required.
At my daughter’s school, they changed the entire core curriculum requirements for Arts and Science majors. Yes, they grandfathered in her start year, but the problem is that following the old requirements is difficult because the courses are disappearing. For example, they used to need 3 writing courses plus an ‘oral’ course (like public speaking or communications), but under the new system many of those courses have been combined and the second (B) writing course is now a communications course. D had already taken the writing B course, but finding an “O” course is almost impossible now. It’s just easier to take the new writing/oral combined B. She still ends up taking the extra class. It’s the sophomores that got caught in it as most of the older students had already completed the writing/oral sequence. No adviser told my daughter about this and she could have waited until the change went through and ‘saved’ a class. Another class she took, as advised, is no longer a course that meets core requirements.
There is one benefit, and that’s that two math courses were required but now she only has to take one.
“He and his friends all got their %^&* handed to them during Freshman, intro chemistry (which other than the first two weeks, did NOT repeat the material learned in HS). I can’t imagine a prospective chem eng major objecting to higher standards in a core discipline. Seems like a win for her.”
This is what I told her in real life. Did not think it productive to share the rest of my opinion with her. lol I understand that classes that appear similar can vary a great deal in difficultly.
@Twoinanddone "Would your daughter have done anything differently if she’d known she needed a 5 on the AP test to get credit? Would she have tried harder or did she do her best on the exam?
The OP advised the daughter to prioritize studying for another AP exam over studying for the AP Chemistry exam on the grounds that she only needed a 4 in chemistry, and the daughter took that advice."
@skieurope “Asking the question a different way, would the student/family have made a different decision on where to atten college if they knew earlier that a 5 in Chem was needed for credit?”
My son went to MIT which at the time, gave no credit for either a 4 or a 5 on the Chem AP. (I don’t know the current policy)."
D2 probably would not choose a different school, but I did notice that the other 5 solid engineering schools she was admitted to and strongly considering, all accept a 4 on Chemistry: Illinois, Wisconsin, Northeastern, Case Western Reserve and Purdue. That suggests that accepting a 4 is so substandard and urgently in need of change that they could not live up to the representations they made to students and parents. All of these schools are ranked somewhat similarly in my opinion, and Wisconsin and Illinois are probably stronger in Chem E in my opinion.
MIT may not accept any AP chem, but D2 has no interest in a school of MITs difficulty. She is a typical, solid 32 ACT student (34 math) who likes a challenge, but also likes athletics and social activities, and has her limits. It is a great school for the right kid, but not her. I don’t think she would survive the first semester. (In contrast, D1 loves an MIT level challenge.)
The alternatives are either not changing AP credit policies ever, or make them effective from year after the following academic year. The former is impractical and the latter is unheard of.
Something to also think about is even a score of 5 is no guarantee a student will have covered the actual equivalent intro course at a given college as an earlier poster noted.
Had an older college classmate who was crashing and burning in a related social science major which relied on the content/methodology from an Intro US history survey course at our college despite placing out by scoring a 5 on APUSH in HS because it turned out he had substantial astounding knowledge/methodological gaps which impacted courses in his major to the point of a near academic suspension.
Ended up needing to give him a crash tutoring course despite the fact I never took APUSH.
@sculptorDad I think it is actually standard practice to maintain commitments/representations made, and apply changes to the next cohort.
@Much2learn, the only logical way to do that is always publishing a guidebook minimum one year advance, because representatives can only advise based on the current policy.
When the school told you that 4 will waive the requirement, was the presumption “based on the current policy and best to the our existing knowledge” or “no matter what the future policy change will be, we will keep this promise to you that?” My common sense tells me it was the former.
What the school gave you was representation of what it was as information, and not individual commitment for the future.
For changes to AP credit policies specifically, it is sensible to make the changes public in early spring, since
a. Evaluation of AP credit bearing students taking more advanced courses in the fall should have been done by then, if that is the reason for changing the policy, and
b. Making the change public by April gives admitted students full and correct information that will apply to them if they attend the school as new students next fall, and
c. AP credit policies and changes are largely irrelevant for continuing students, as long as previously granted credit is retained.
Perhaps the problem may be that the school publishes the AP credit policy as part of its (on-line) catalog, but the updated catalog is not published until late summer, even though changes to the AP credit policy may have been made much earlier and theoretically available to be made public back then.
@ucbalumnus,
It would have been sensible and kind of them if they announced early spring.
But it could be culmination of a years long debate that was only finalized after the Summer.
Nonetheless I don’t believe it was part of the commitments for the new students.
Isn’t the goal to achieve the highest possible score on every exam? I don’t understand why you assume that DD would have gotten a 5 on exam. If studying for the exam required a “different” approach that “we” would take, isn’t it possible that she will benefit from the course? I understand that you are frustrated that the requirement was changed, but IMO making accusations that the Department Head is in violation of the academic integrity and ethics policy is a huge leap that is not applicable here.
"I am just thinking of asking the Provost for his opinion about whether he thinks it complies with the verbiage in the University’s integrity code, and whether the the Provost and the University believe that there is an expectation that their statements can be relied up. "
I think that is deliberately inflammatory to challenge them like that. I think your student should nicely ask if she can be grandfathered in, explain that the website said a 4 was acceptable just a few weeks ago, and if the answer is no, say thank you anyway with a smile. This is NOT a hill worth dying on.
@sculptorDad “the only logical way to do that is always publishing a guidebook minimum one year advance, because representatives can only advise based on the current policy.”
Our visit was in April, and the website was still unchanged as of last month. When we discussed the requirements during our visit, they did not say that the current guidelines are x, but may change by the time you arrive in the fall. They told us that the posted requirements were the requirements. I can’t imagine why the requirements for fall can’t be maintained once representations have been made to admitted students and parents in April. That does not seem like an undue burden.
If statements can’t be relied upon, perhaps when the University President addresses the admitted students and parents he would like to inform everyone that neither statements made by his faculty and administrators, nor information posted on his University website can be relied upon as students and faculty are making decisions about attending the school.
“Perhaps the problem may be that the school publishes the AP credit policy as part of its (on-line) catalog, but the updated catalog is not published until late summer, even though changes to the AP credit policy may have been made much earlier and theoretically available to be made public back then.”
That is possible. However, the deputy/assistant Chairperson did not mention that any changes were anticipated, even when discussing the specific issue with the engineering students. He only focused on reinforcing for students the importance understanding calculus well. I guided my D2 to focus on calculus based on what he told me. They also handed out information packets. they could have easily added a page informing students of any expected changes. They did not do any of it. Just popped it on students today. Ironically, they are probably also lecturing the students on the importance of integrity and being responsible for their actions. lol
@Much2learn , I don’t see substantial new information or logic. Let’s amicably agree to disagree. 
@Much2learn - You seem very angry about this. Nothin’ I can do about that. But if you want others’ opinions as a double check on your reactions then here are mine -
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Is it “legal”? My guess is yes. Bet there are disclaimers all over the written documents, as well as disclaimers that say that the written documents are the first, last, and only source for the official requirements. Otherwise every time a dean or a professor misspoke all hell would break loose.
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Do other colleges do similar things? Again, my guess is yes. I can’t cite chapter and verse for you, but I think I remember that when one of my children was in college they added another required class in order to graduate with a degree in their intended major. This affected my kid because they were a freshman but hadn’t declared the major yet. But the change was made after my kid enrolled in the university. Didn’t affect those who had already declared the major; they were “grandfathered” in.
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How big a deal is it? I don’t think changing the AP credit requirements in the summer before enrollment is that big a deal. If you’re asking me, it’s about a 3 on a scale of 1 to 10 … unless it means that you have to pay for another semester or something like that. Just one man’s opinion. It might be useful to survey all the posts here.
Look, colleges update policies all the time, particularly during the summer. Usually it’s pretty minor stuff . A student can’t argue that they accepted an offer of admission in reliance on a website that listed the current disciplinary policies and then say it’s forbidden to make any changes that could adversely affect them until after they graduate. Another example - Someone might decide to enroll because famous Prof. X is advertised to be teaching the classes that they want to take, but they’re not entitled to a remedy if Prof. X leaves mid-semester.
On the other hand, it would be outrageous if a college made a big change to graduation requirements that affected seniors and prevented them from graduating in May like they had planned. The school should give more notice than that, and I think they pretty much all “grandfather” kids who are are “past the point of no return”. That would be an 11 out of 10 problem in my opinion.
- My suggestion is for your daughter to try a few of the different angles that have already been suggested (assuming she wants the credit) but not to declare war over this. Maybe if she appeals the matter the professor will just say “sure”. I also agree that if she wants to be a chemical engineer then retaking chemistry even after getting a 4 on the AP exam might actually be beneficial … but that really depends on the individual and what’s covered in the classes.
Best of luck.
“If statements can’t be relied upon, perhaps when the University President addresses the admitted students and parents he would like to inform everyone that neither statements made by his faculty and administrators, nor information posted on his University website can be relied upon as students and faculty are making decisions about attending the school.”
Such an attitude is unproductive and deliberately provocative. You have no way of knowing that your D would have gotten a 5. She could have still gotten a 4. Anyway, the insistence on jumping up a level is silly. College is difficult enough to adjust to; it’s not the end of the world if she re-learns a little material. Don’t be like the obnoxious parents on CC for whom learning is a race to be sped through as quickly as possible. This is a true “let it go” situation.
By the same token, you may argue the school publish misleading CoA. The tuition rate for the next year is often after the May 1 commitment date. Courses offered and the requirement for graduation or declaring certain major also got changed all the time. It can be a problem particularly when you did not declare the major before the change. Whatever they published or the information provided by the counselor should be current, but it does not mean they cannot be changed for the upcoming year.
What if the school’s AP policy changed the other way, that it would now give credit for a 3, but in order to make it fair they wouldn’t give the credit until the following year because they needed to publish it? Would that be fair to the current students?
My daughter’s school changed the scholarship amounts for the class coming in after her, and if she had started a year later, she’d be getting twice as much as she is. Unlucky for her, as the price is the same for those entering in 2014 or 2015. Nothing we can do about it.