Raising AP requirements ex-post

Parents Forum
1

D2 took AP Chem last year, and took the test in May. The college requirement for credit in intro Chem was a 4 or 5.

Results came out in July (last month) and she received a 4. I verified that it received credit on the school website once we received her results.

Moved to college this week and met with her advisor this morning. They have now raised the requirement, after the fact, to only give credit for a 5.

This ex-post hiking the level seems unethical and dishonest to me. Is that just an accepted practice or does it seem that way to others?

2

Is it now listed as needing a 5 on the web site? Did the old web site list an academic year that the AP credit applied to?

Does the school have different AP credit score thresholds for different majors?

3

Wow, that stinks. Would not be too happy about that.

4

@ucbalumnus “Is it now listed as needing a 5 on the web site?”

Yes, but it was not last month. I know because I verified it myself to be sure she assessed them all correctly when her results came back in July.

" Did the old web site list an academic year that the AP credit applied to?"

I do not know. I went to their website and searched “requirements for AP credit”. There was only one page. It said you would receive credit for a 4 or a 5 on AP Chem. If they did not intend that information to apply to the current freshmen, it should not have been up one month before the beginning of the term. If they were supposed to only be for the last academic year, there was nothing posted for the current academic year, and nothing that said that this should not be used by entering students. If you search for AP credit requirements it takes you to this page. We had even discussed the requirements with the upperclassmen students they sent to talk to admitted students during our April visit.

“Does the school have different AP credit score thresholds for different majors?”

No. There is nothing about that on the old one or the new one.

Honestly, I think it is great to have high standards, but to me this is like hiking then number of credits to graduate when you are a Senior. They showed one thing to students when they were applying, selecting a school, preparing for APs, and even after the results were posted in July. Then they hiked it.

My student allocated study time based on the stated requirements, and I specifically told her it was important to get a 5 on AB Calc even though they accept a 4 because it will impact many many classes. She worked more on that thinking she could get at least the 4 that she needed on Chem. We would have prioritized differently if it had been posted correctly.

She received a 4 in Chem and 5 in AB Calc. Now they are retroactively changing their Chem requirement to only accept a 5. It seems very dishonest to me, but if this is a standard practice that all colleges do, then I would still think it was dishonest, but at least I would think it was a “standard dishonesty.” lol

5

Let’s give the school the benefit of the doubt here.

I don’t think dishonesty has anything to do with it.

I think it’s likely that the faculty in the department became aware that students who had 4s on the AP exam and were allowed to skip the introductory course didn’t do as well in subsequent courses as those who had 5s. So they changed their requirements.

In any event, if there’s even a chance that your daughter may be inadequately prepared to take more advanced chemistry courses, you wouldn’t want her to request (and get) an exemption from the new rule, would you?

On the other hand, if your daughter was only looking for the credit and will never take another chemistry course, she might want to argue the point with the chemistry department and see if she can still get the credit. The worst they can say is no.

6

That is probably the motivation. However, they would have had the results of first semester courses taken by students who skipped the introductory courses with AP credit by early spring, and could have posted the change on the web site by April (so that prospective matriculants can be fully informed before the decide to attend).

What I have seen on some college web sites was that when requirements were changed, students who entered the degree program earlier are held to the old requirements, so that requirement changes do not force them to take extra semesters to “catch up” to the new requirements.

If the OP’s daughter wants to ask for an exemption from the introductory chemistry course and will take additional chemistry courses for her major, she may want to first try the college’s old final exam for the introductory chemistry course to check how well she knows the material from the college’s point of view.

7

“I don’t think dishonesty has anything to do with it. I think it’s likely that the faculty in the department became aware that students who had 4s on the AP exam and were allowed to skip the introductory course didn’t do as well.”

That may be true, and I encourage that. Still, they did not have that epiphany this week. It is still dishonest and irresponsible not have been responsible to be transparent up front. There is no defense for telling applicants one thing on final visits and changing it ex-post. They made representations, and they should stick with them. If my kid had told them one thing on her application and now said it was not true when she arrived, there would be trouble. The need to model the honesty and transparency they expect from students. I am not pleased starting with “Do as I say, and not as I do.” That is shameful. Now you have students and parents beginning 4 years of college with the clear message that the administration is not honest and trustworthy, and that they will not be held to the representations they make to visiting admitted students and is posted on their website can not be accepted as the truth, and they reserve the right to change rules retroactively at any time regardless of what they say to your face now. How do you get comfortable with that?

Throughout the process, students who received a 4 received credit for first semester of Chem, students who received, a 5 got you out of 2 semesters of Chem. I had told her not to worry about a 5 and focus on getting a 5 in Calculus because I thought it was a mistake to skip two semesters of Chem. Now they changed at the beginning to school to no credit for a 4, and one semester for a 5.

“In any event, if there’s even a chance that your daughter may be inadequately prepared to take more advanced chemistry courses, you wouldn’t want her to request (and get) an exemption from the new rule, would you?”

Yes, I would. I have no concern about her doing fine. Honestly, the difference between a 4 and a 5 can be one question. It is deminimus. I know she could have gotten a 5, but I rerouted her to focus on knowing the calculus material cold, because a 4 or 5 on her Chem grade did not matter based on what they posted. Those students can’t be that ill prepared because that requirement has been that way for at least a few years. If there were a dramatic difference, it would have been changed before.

The school knows that this is sending a clear message to students that the department and administration do not have their act together, and lack the integrity to stand by their word, like they expect from students.

If they had changed their opinion about this requirement and cared about the students, and cared about their integrity, they would have posted the change long ago and recommended that students prepare thoroughly for a 5 or take the introduction.

8

If the plan is to major in chemistry, many departments require AP students to take first year, but offer an honors section.

9

“What I have seen on some college web sites was that when requirements were changed, students who entered the degree program earlier are held to the old requirements, so that requirement changes do not force them to take extra semesters to “catch up” to the new requirements.”

This is the accepted practice that I have seen at Penn and Cornell. You can change it, and it will apply to the next group.

@viciksocal “If the plan is to major in chemistry, many departments require AP students to take first year, but offer an honors section.”

She is planning to major in either Chem E or Comp Sci.

Your recommendation is what I suggested to her this morning. I thought she might get better explanations, and learn more details that way. I suggested that D2 discuss this with a few upperclassmen engineers. She called back and said that the upperclassmen engineers told her that would be a good idea if there were a good professors. However, they said that the Honors professor is very bright, but is poor at explaining to students, is much more difficult to understand, and that the professors for the regular course provide better explanations. They told her to avoid the honors course. Grrrrr.

10

I think she is probably stuck and will have to take the intro course.

Still, I believe it is an issue to post on your website, and discuss with admits, specific requirements and then change them ex-post, and still not inform students until they physically arrive on campus. I can’t imagine that the University wants to establish on day one, that representations that administrators and faculty make to admitted students can not be relied upon. Additionally, we and probably many other families, are suddenly expected to pay for four additional credit hours.

I think I may contact the Provost. It seems to me that she may need to take the additional course, but the University should acknowledge their responsibility and waive the cost of the class. Additionally, I think the Chemistry Department Head may have violated the academic integrity and ethics policy by not living up to what was posted on the website, and also represented in April at the admitted student days, when we met with the Chemical Engineering Department and admissions and specifically discussed their AP credit requirements.

I am sure I will get an interesting note back.

11

Colleges are subject to periodic assessments of their academic standards in order to maintain their accreditation by various organizations. My guess is that this change was not initiated by the college’s own faculty, but was a finding during the most recent assessment-- which in fact, the university may not have seen until recently, i.e. right before the academic year began.

I’d tread carefully before accusing the chem department chair of violating academic integrity. That’s a charge typically brought against faculty for fabricating results in a lab; using another researchers work and calling it his/her own, taking credit for a grad student’s dissertation findings when not involved in the research at all, etc.

You’re talking about a highly annoying change in administrative policy. I don’t think you’ll get very far accusing the department chair of violating academic integrity for changing an administrative policy- which at the end of the day, serves to RAISE academic standards for your D, not lower them.

My son went to MIT which at the time, gave no credit for either a 4 or a 5 on the Chem AP. (I don’t know the current policy). He and his friends all got their %^&* handed to them during Freshman, intro chemistry (which other than the first two weeks, did NOT repeat the material learned in HS). I can’t imagine a prospective chem eng major objecting to higher standards in a core discipline. Seems like a win for her.

Sure- if she were an early ed major who was hoping to never take another science class by getting a 4 on AP Chem. That I get. But for a prospective scientist???

12

@Much2learn - I’d strongly advise you to not send such a strongly worded email. It’s very counterproductive and, more importantly, it’s not fair to toss accusations around like that. Don’t be “that parent”.

Based on your previous posts, does your daughter go to a school that starts with the letter “deleted” ?

If so, I was able to pull up an archived version of the old AP credit web page (dated 2/2/2016) where it talked about giving 4 credit hours for an AP Chem score of “4”. It definitely says “2015-16 Catalog” at the top.

The current page says they will give 4 hours of credit for a score of “5”. It says “2016-17 Catalog” at the top.

This answer may not make you happy, but it’s clear to me that the old policy applied to the last academic year. It appears to me that the school’s behind is covered regarding this change in policy. YMMV depending on exactly how specific your previous conversations with the school were.

P.S. On the old web page they say they offered a special exam for students who want to try to get credit for the second 4 hours. Maybe they have an exam for the first 4 hours? Couldn’t hurt to ask.

13

I think you are assuming the webpages are updated as soon as policies are changed. They are not and even the tuition and fees, housing costs, etc., are often two years behind. The webpages are a snapshot of the policies and those policies, scholarships, costs, offerings change all the time. If the policy change is recent, I bet it worked its way through the committees and the higher ups signed off on it, but no one told the web managers yet.

Would your daughter have done anything differently if she’d known she needed a 5 on the AP test to get credit? Would she not have applied to this school or accepted admission in April? She didn’t even take the exam until May and didn’t know the results until July, so did it really influence her school selection? Would she have tried harder or did she do her best on the exam?

It’s disappointing to not get credit for something, but I really doubt she would have made other choices.

14

MODERATOR’S NOTE:
One can certainly ask a poster via PM where the child goes to school, but given that the website is called College Confidential, guessing where she goes to school on the forums is not appropriate.

15

The OP advised the daughter to prioritize studying for another AP exam over studying for the AP Chemistry exam on the grounds that she only needed a 4 in chemistry, and the daughter took that advice.

I don’t think, though, that the OP should complain to the school. There is a risk of making the daughter look incompetent. It is entirely possible that somewhere in the deluge of communications the daughter received from the college over the last few months, there was a notification of the change in the AP policy, and the daughter overlooked or forgot about it.

16

Sorry skieurope, just trying to be helpful to the OP. Won’t happen again (I hope :slight_smile: )

17

@blossom

I am for higher standards. Had this been explained when we visited, I would have thought that was great, and we would have taken a different approach to her APs, and she would have achieved the grade that was expected.

To me, it is important for parents and students to understand whether they can rely on representations/requirements that are not only posted on the website, and also were discussed with the Chemical Engineering department during admitted student days, and then changed when students appeared on campus. I personally checked it about 4 weeks ago, so it has been changed since then, and no email or information was sent out explaining the compelling need to change the raise the current standard so late in the process, and contrary to the representations that have been made right up until now. They did not explain it until today, after the parents had left.

“I’d tread carefully before accusing the chem department chair of violating academic integrity. That’s a charge typically brought against faculty for fabricating results in a lab.”

I suppose I could inquire via the Ombuds Office instead, if I need to tread carefully. I definitely am not making an accusation. I don’t know enough to do assert that.

I am just thinking of asking the Provost for his opinion about whether he thinks it complies with the verbiage in the University’s integrity code, and whether the the Provost and the University believe that there is an expectation that their statements can be relied up. I will be interested in his response, and I am sure many future students and parents would be interested in seeing his response too. lol

18

When I make such bets of gaming the system, which I often do, I am always willing to accept foreseen and unforeseen consequence, and usually make some back up plans to mitigate damage from loosing the bet. But I never resent the loss.

19

No worries @al2simon

I think this is the ideal way to go; if they say no, perhaps she can offer taking a challenge exam for credit. Again, all they can say is mo. While I’m surprised that the school did not grandfather the requirements, little surprises me any more. Regardless, I think this is a situation that the student, not the parent, needs to take the initiative on.

Asking the question a different way, would the student/family have made a different decision on where to atten college if they knew earlier that a 5 in Chem was needed for credit?

Current policy is the same, although the dept offers a challenge exam for credit

I have to agree with this. Although I have no experience with college chem, my college does not allow majors to bypass intro physics courses with AP credit. Despite acing the AP exams, and taking post-AP physics courses, the college courses really kicked my butt. Retaking in college is not always a bad thing.

20

Another route to ask about is to see if she could “test out” of the intro chemistry sequence by taking the department’s own placement exam.

Several HS classmates managed to get out of intro courses including bio/chem/physics by doing just that despite not having been allowed to take any APs in those areas and all excelled in higher level STEM classes.