<p>You don’t get into Cambridge because of extracurriculars, legacies, ethnic background and sports like you will do for most of the top US unis. It is purely based academic aptitude.</p>
<p>No it is not based purely on academic aptitude. Also Oxbridge’s minimum requirement is similar to the average SAT score of around 25 colleges in the US. By the way look at this, since you claim analytical skills and its from your thread. I would point out that the analysis made the mistake of not considering that a lot of British schools are international. However, also its noteworthy that regardless of the difficulty of the SAT scores, Top 25 Schools in the US take most of the top 5% of test-takers: </p>
<p>“You guys are all so smart. How come no one can crunch any numbers? Let’s take Harvard. Half the students (about 1650 new students every year) are in the top 4% of test-takers and half are below the 4% mark and get in for other reasons like extracurriculars, legacies, ethnic background and sports. Well 4% in the States is 208,000 students (based on SAT and ACT), enough to fill the “unhooked” spots at 50-100 top universities and colleges. Contrast that with the UK. The top 4% is what? Maybe 20,000 Brits? Plenty of them are going to Oxbridge. If Oxford took .5 of 1% of the top 4% like Harvard does, they would take 100 Brits. Can one of you quant jocks fine-tune these numbers?”</p>
<p>This shows you would find a significant number of Oxbridge quality students at the Top schools in the US.</p>
<p>Another example- Got AAAA in his AS seems like a good student. Would likely get him inot Bristol, maybe Imperial. Could definitely get into top british schools but has am SAT of 2000 (which would be unlikely to get you into an IVY) also on the borderline for engineering students at Georgia Tech. </p>
<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/what-my-chances/413414-please-chance-me-i-really-need-advice.html?highlight=chance+harrow+student[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/what-my-chances/413414-please-chance-me-i-really-need-advice.html?highlight=chance+harrow+student</a></p>
<p>It seems you just don’t get it!</p>
<p>SATs is way way easier than A-levels. It at best (which I don’t think it is at) equivalent to 3 As at A-levels. I think it is more a 3 Bs at A-levels. Most Oxbridge students get 4 to 5 As at A-levels.</p>
<p>I hope you saw post 51 afterwards?</p>
<p>"Oh and to the person doing number crunching earlier? There were around 800k A-level entries this year, and this is including all the overseas students and whatnot, but I’ll leave them in. Each person roughly takes 4 A-levels, so that’s 200,000 students. Top 4% of them is 8000 Students. And that is roughly the number of undergrads entering Oxford and Cambridge. Now take into account roughly half the undergrads enterring Harvard are below 4%, that actually drags their average down to maybe, top 6%? 8%? Making it perhaps even easier academically to get in.</p>
<p>So before you use a tone like ‘You guys are all so smart. How come no one can crunch any numbers?’ MAybe you’d like to check your figures in advance."</p>
<p>No, apart from PG, the average top Uni US student bar the HYPMS are inferior to Oxbridge.</p>
<p>Top 4% of them is 8000 Students. And that is roughly the number of undergrads entering Oxford and Cambridge. Now take into account roughly half the undergrads enterring Harvard are below 4%, that actually drags their average down to maybe, top 6%? 8%? Making it perhaps even easier academically to get in."</p>
<p>I did not do that analysis, that was shady. I would start by saying about 2 million take the SAT. Top 4% is around a 2100 SAT and 80,000 people.</p>
<p>Some of the people who take the SAT would still go to school in the UK. And a larger majority of the people who took the A-levels might end up turning down Oxford/Cambridge for Harvard (The latter is very rare though it does happen if the person is a brit). Lets assume this is negligible.</p>
<p>800,000 students take the A-levels (A major problem is that some of these dont plan to go to school in the UK anyways). Top 4% if 8,000, for four As. These kids would be spread at the top 4 British schools.</p>
<p>But if Harvard only takes 900 of the top 80,000 students. What happens to the rest?</p>
<p>Now speaking of A-levels grade inflation:</p>
<p>[A-level</a> results: grade inflation is just a cruel confidence trick - Telegraph](<a href=“A-level results: grade inflation is just a cruel confidence trick”>A-level results: grade inflation is just a cruel confidence trick)</p>
<p>“As a result, over the past 20 years, the proportion of A grades has risen from nine per cent to yesterday’s 26.7 per cent; a study by Durham University last year concluded that an A grade today is the equivalent of a C grade in the 1980s.”</p>
<p>[A-levels</a> results: Students receive more top grades | Education | guardian.co.uk](<a href=“http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2008/aug/14/alevels.schools]A-levels”>A-level results: Students receive more top grades | A-levels | The Guardian)</p>
<p>[Any</a> questions: A-level grades inflation - Telegraph](<a href=“Any questions: A-level grades inflation”>Any questions: A-level grades inflation)</p>
<p>[A</a> banker’s solution to grade inflation | Jamie Whyte - Times Online](<a href=“The Times & The Sunday Times: breaking news & today's latest headlines”>The Times & The Sunday Times: breaking news & today's latest headlines)</p>
<p>“SATs is way way easier than A-levels. It at best (which I don’t think it is at) equivalent to 3 As at A-levels. I think it is more a 3 Bs at A-levels. Most Oxbridge students get 4 to 5 As at A-levels.”</p>
<p>Seems you are ignorant of the American system. SAT cannot be compared to the A-level so comparing to one A-level or three does not make sense. Do you really understand both systems? Or you are making unsubstantiated claims?</p>
<p>At least know the difference. The so called difficult A-levels has a larger number of people passing it. However, let us assume that British educated people are intrinsically better than most people but still 26% As on a standardized testing? Whats this Christmas?:)</p>
<p>This is from the same thread. Post 142:</p>
<p>"I study here in the UK - I took APs, and I’ve seen A-level papers, the syllabus, and i see how AP students and A-level students are coping. I can definitely tell you AP = and in some cases more difficult than A-level - guaranteed. </p>
<p>All very anecdotal of course.</p>
<p>You said: “And a larger majority of the people who took the A-levels might end up turning down Oxford/Cambridge for Harvard”</p>
<p>Really? Where did you get that from? A large majority?</p>
<p>It seems you like to just make statements up. So basically over 4000 UK students cross over to go to Harvard?</p>
<p>You are jokes, bruv!</p>
<p>Obviously, more Brits would be willing to go to Harvard than vice-versa as they are more globally knowledgeable than the average myopic American. Obviously most don’t, unlike your claims. So the fact that less US students are willing to come to UK does not imply inferiority. It is just best for them as due to the myopia of the US, anything short of a US education might mean they are disadvantaged in the US job market. In the UK on the other hand, due to the fact that they are more globally aware, even those that have degrees from top unis Moscow State University, Trinity College, Uni Coll. Dublin or the French Grande Ecoles have good employment capabilities in the UK.</p>
<p>I say it again, the SATs is not comparable to A-Levels. It has never been and it still is not. So the top 4% in A-levels would be more equivalent to the top 1% in SATs. The US has a lot more unis and also a lot more quality universities, so any student not going to Harvard can go to Stanford, Princeton, Yale, all the other Ivies and many more. And some may not go to this due to cost and opt for their local top Public like Michigan, Berkeley etc. </p>
<p>Unlike the UK were 70% (including those with 5 to 6 A-levels [far tougher than SATs]) would in Oxbridge, and another 20% in LSE or Imperial and 10% in the top following 10 unis.</p>
<p>Also, lets get it straight, or it seems to me you have searched and failed to find, I am talking about grade inflation in University NOT A-levels.</p>
<p>Even the A-levels is not grade inflation, it is getting easier. And the reason it is is because it has not been varied that much hence students practicing old papers will become familiar with the format. They still have to work hard to cover the curriculum though.</p>
<p>In UNIVERSITY, their is nothing like grade inflation in the UK. In the US, there is!</p>
<p>SATs are mainly multiple choice for God sake. Guessing right when you do not know some might actually make you look intelligent.</p>
<p>A-Levels, does not only test you critical thinking, it demands you express and display it. Each A-level is harder than each SAT by far, now imagine you have to do 4 hard A-levels to 3 easier SATs that are multi choice.</p>
<p>SATs does not compare with A-levels, my friend. It does not even compare with a lot of African countries’ exams.</p>
<p>Post 118 </p>
<p>“Well of course there’ll be more top US unis, simply because there are more US unis anyway…The US has a larger population, so would have ten times more unis, and so would have 10 times more unis in the top 20, they’d still have the same percentage in the top 20… Oh and straight As at A-level is far harder than straight A’s in any comparable US course. An AP would be roughly half the difficulty of an A-level. a Perfect GPA with straight 5’s at AP only courses would still not compare with the difficulty of straigh As at A-0levels, so the valedictorian argument is a bit of a moot point.”</p>
<p>Post 122</p>
<p>"Although I know what you’re meaning, this is slightly misleading.
It’s pretty “easy” to get into HYP: write some essays and send off your application. For Oxbridge, you’re having real academical interviews that are far from easy.</p>
<p>I got into both Princeton and Cambridge. From my experience, it was “harder” to get into Cambridge. Of course, it’s harder to get into Princeton because they took only ~7%, but from my <em>feeling</em> I thought that Cambridge was more challenging."</p>
<p>Post 124</p>
<p>"The only test the applicants to US unis face is how to best present their acomplishments, after all it is how they are presented that is of most importance.
Secondly, the only fear that HYP applicants face is the fear of rejecction, oxbridge applicants have to sit through an hour of grilling alongside a 1/2 hour exam written specifically for applicants for that course. Somewhat more testing that the US admissions system.</p>
<p>I don’t really have a whole lot of interest in trying to convince you, because you will never see the other side, and given that you have not applied yet, havent even seen one side of the argument very clearly."</p>
<p>"You said: “And a larger majority of the people who took the A-levels might end up turning down Oxford/Cambridge for Harvard”</p>
<p>Really? Where did you get that from? A large majority?</p>
<p>It seems you like to just make statements up. So basically over 4000 UK students cross over to go to Harvard?"</p>
<p>They would if they want an international career. If they want to stay in backwater England they might as well attend the best. My experience is that most people would choose Harvard over every school.</p>
<p>“Obviously, more Brits would be willing to go to Harvard than vice-versa as they are more globally knowledgeable than the average myopic American. Obviously most don’t, unlike your claims. So the fact that less US students are willing to come to UK does not imply inferiority. It is just best for them as due to the myopia of the US, anything short of a US education might mean they are disadvantaged in the US job market. In the UK on the other hand, due to the fact that they are more globally aware, even those that have degrees from top unis Moscow State University, Trinity College, Uni Coll. Dublin or the French Grande Ecoles have good employment capabilities in the UK.”</p>
<p>Or just because they are European? Are Brits aware of the top degrees at South American Universities? The UK is an EU country and so their is a flow of European degrees. </p>
<p>“I say it again, the SATs is not comparable to A-Levels. It has never been and it still is not. So the top 4% in A-levels would be more equivalent to the top 1% in SATs. The US has a lot more unis and also a lot more quality universities, so any student not going to Harvard can go to Stanford, Princeton, Yale, all the other Ivies and many more. And some may not go to this due to cost and opt for their local top Public like Michigan, Berkeley etc.”</p>
<p>“Also, lets get it straight, or it seems to me you have searched and failed to find, I am talking about grade inflation in University NOT A-levels.”</p>
<p>I pointed to the grade distribution of UK schools being the same as notorious as US schools and you claim that British schools work harder than American schools, with zero evidence. I further presented A-levels to show you that the entry requirements for British shcools are subpar to that of the US showing you grade inflation in the A-levels which ahs always been a problem in the UK. </p>
<p>Saying the Top 4% is equivalent to the top 1% is total fallacy. The A-levels or whatever, test achievement, and the SAT tests another achievement. A-levels is about how much you can cram and spit out most of the time. SAT is more of an intuitive test which could be beaten by hardwork. If I want to find the best students for food eating I could go by two routes- Test who eat the most or test the food eating per minute. These are two different methods but is one superior- no? It just depends on what I want. However your claim that the bell curve in the UK (the Uk has smarter people relative to the US) is hilarious. This is the first I have heard of such a claim.</p>
<p>SAT tries to select people who can learn and pick up anything quickly- hence it test how analytical you are regardless of your course. While the A-levels test specific knowledge. Moreover, average courses like business, finance, accounting, marketing (which a ■■■■■■ could pick up) have different requirements at UK schools than Science/engineering/economics subjects (the place of real intellectuals). In the US though general ability is tested in getting into a school- please judge which has the better student from a nonbiased perspective.</p>
<p>“Unlike the UK were 70% (including those with 5 to 6 A-levels [far tougher than SATs]) would in Oxbridge, and another 20% in LSE or Imperial and 10% in the top following 10 unis.”</p>
<p>As I repeat, the SAT and the A-levels are not the same type of exam. SAT is one of the criteria used to judge. The US also considers the quality of your school record, how many good classes you took, and the grades you got in them over four years. They want consistent performance- not just one shot performance. The SAT is a supplement to your school record. You still dont understand the two systems at all. All your information is from reading threads.</p>
<p>If the SAT is just multiple choice then everyone would pass it. Its like I am talking to someone with zero understanding of applying to US schools- its all good that you are presenting points that agree with you- But please take a look at people who get into Top British schools and compare them to the schools they got into in the US- this would help you get an idea of quality.</p>
<p>If the entry requirements for British Top schools is heavily inflated- How can we be sure of the quality of a particular group. British schools in academic quality are inferior to american schools period. U are using the SAT in an ignorant sort of way- take it like a gauge of the bell curve of a population or as an IQ test (which are also multiple choice). </p>
<p>However the SAT is taken into consideration with your grade in school. Cambridge and Oxford are Inferior to HYPMS, and more in the same class as the lower ivies.</p>
<p>“They would if they want an international career. If they want to stay in backwater England they might as well attend the best. My experience is that most people would choose Harvard over every school.”</p>
<p>Oh, so you do not have proof that was the case? You just made up that assumption?</p>
<p>If that is the case, what can I say. These trend of argument is obvious in a lot of your arguments.</p>
<p>England is backwater? Ignorance, I bet you think Idaho is great.</p>
<p>“Or just because they are European? Are Brits aware of the top degrees at South American Universities? The UK is an EU country and so their is a flow of European degrees.”</p>
<p>No, they do know other unis outside EU. People with Degrees from Cape Town, IIT, American University in Cairo, Tokyo, McGill, OAU are well regarded and have good opportunities in UK. The myopia is not as deep as US.</p>
<p>How can using multiple choice be the best and better test to assess “who can learn and pick up anything quickly”? That is jokes!</p>
<p>And SAT does not test anything but numeracy and verbal reasoning until the recent addition of critical reading. What a poor and inferior assessment. You go and do an A-Level in Physics or Further Maths that has no multi-choice section and you would know what a tough exam is.</p>
<p>Part of the reason there is grade inflation at A-levels is that more and more students are avoiding the tough subjects and going for easy subjects, hence getting higher grades. This led to top unis disregarding some A-Level subjects as revelant in entry, hence only the best go to top schools.</p>
<p>[Cambridge</a> and LSE in ‘soft’ A-levels revolt - Telegraph](<a href=“Cambridge and LSE in 'soft' A-levels revolt”>Cambridge and LSE in 'soft' A-levels revolt)</p>
<p>The A-levels is also taken in conjunction with GCSE scores.</p>
<p>There is no grade inflation in UK universities, the universities are even fighting it at A-levels.</p>
<p>“However the SAT is taken into consideration with your grade in school. Cambridge and Oxford are Inferior to HYPMS, and more in the same class as the lower ivies.”</p>
<p>So that is why “intellectuals” like George Bush could enter Yale and HBS? lol</p>
<p>I bet he smashed his SATs and looked like a genius.</p>
<p>I apologize I always make the same mistake of assuming people googled before they made arguments:</p>
<p>[More</a> top English students opt for American universities - Times Online](<a href=“The Times & The Sunday Times: breaking news & today's latest headlines”>The Times & The Sunday Times: breaking news & today's latest headlines)</p>
<p>[Ivy</a> League generosity is luring brightest away from Oxbridge - Times Online](<a href=“The Times & The Sunday Times: breaking news & today's latest headlines”>The Times & The Sunday Times: breaking news & today's latest headlines)</p>
<p>[Times</a> Higher Education - The American lesson: How to be top](<a href=“http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/story.asp?storycode=409225]Times”>The American lesson: How to be top | Times Higher Education (THE))</p>
<p>I will not use personal experience as an example or data. I expect you to suggest examples of monetary incentives but thats enough to say that regardless of finances, a student would choose HYPMS over Cambridge or the weaker Oxford. </p>
<p>“It was from Monkseaton that Laura Spence was accepted at Harvard eight years ago. Oxford had turned down her application to study medicine, despite predictions of five A grades at A-level. Spences rejection spawned headlines worldwide and prompted Gordon Brown to attack the universitys admissions procedures as an old boy network.”</p>
<p>Old boy network-similar to accusations of legacy admits at Yale which ehlped George Bush. Not every student at oxford got in on merit as much as you claim</p>
<p>You should be more worried about Asian Universities surpassing you in research development:</p>
<p>[China’s</a> top universities will rival Oxbridge, says Yale president | Education | The Guardian](<a href=“http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2010/feb/02/chinese-universities-will-rival-oxbridge]China’s”>China's top universities will rival Oxbridge, says Yale president | Higher education | The Guardian)</p>
<p>Noticed I have brought examples from British newspapers to prevent bias.</p>
<p>Here is another American at MIT, post 175 (please also read the entire page 12 of the thread):</p>
<p>"Just out of curiosity, was your friend a U.S. citizen?</p>
<p>I can definitely relate to your criticisms. The MIT admits from Georgia were all relatively mediocre, with none of them standing out exceptionally at the national level. For MIT domestic students, whoever makes the Georgia ARML team is basically guaranteed admission into MIT. For any aspiring math Olympian, making the Georgia ARML team is not difficult.</p>
<p>The bar is definitely set higher for International students, but it’s not like we can do anything about it.</p>
<p>This is almost nearly true for the successful Canadian admits. Every single Canadian I know of accepted to the MIT Class of 2011 participated in some form of International Olympiad. Most U.S. citizens simply aren’t at that level. I strongly suspect that for citizens, it’s usually sufficient enough to be a good student, have several (but not exceptional) extracurricular activities, and score decently enough (but not perfect) the SATs. Sure the admissions offices can have their selective preferences, but I just don’t think this is exactly fair."</p>
<p>US exams and admission are not rigourous academically enough. Only the best get into Cambridge, Bush would not have a chance in hell.</p>
<p>“There is no grade inflation in UK universities, the universities are even fighting it at A-levels.”</p>
<p>But the grade distribution shows that they give higher number of first class and second class upper honors than Top American schools (the mostly grade inflated ones?)</p>
<p>I would like some consistency</p>
<p>1) UK gives more honors overall than American schools if you remove community colleges. There are more 2:1 and 1st classes being given.
2) Let us assume something makes the British smarter than Americans. Then maybe they deserve the grades given to them because they work harder for it. At least that should even the field lol. I think British schools should start battling grade inflation. </p>
<p>Look at evidence for grade inflation in British schools</p>
<p>[University</a> marking to be reviewed over grade inflation fears | Education | The Guardian](<a href=“http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2009/sep/10/higher-education-universityfunding]University”>University marking to be reviewed over grade inflation fears | Higher education | The Guardian)</p>
<p>However it does not exist because you say so?</p>
<p>3) American is blamed for grade inflation (Giving more As, but not honors inflation- anytime grade inflation rises, most schools just increase the requirements for honors or at least make you write a honors thesis) </p>
<p>Harvard foes not give honors based soley on grades for example.</p>
<p>Whyare you posting anecdotal posts as evidence? That only works in the UK.</p>
<p>Know Cambridge and Oxford dont practise legacy admits. They just have grade inflated statistics, and admit high fee paying internationals to help fund them</p>
<p>Please stop quoting what you do not know anything about.</p>
<p>Although there is Old boy networks, Brown was over emphasising this to win working class people’s vote. Obviously the OBN kids get better grades and since Oxbridge is meritious, they will win more places. Unlike Harvard that reserves a large chunk of places for alumni kids.</p>
<p>Even the Laura Spence girl came back to Cambridge from Harvard to do her Med degree.</p>
<p>People being rejected at Oxford are getting easily into Harvard.</p>
<p>I hope you read this part:</p>
<p>““I wanted to do research and you can do that from your very first year at MIT,” says Labno, who admits that money was also a factor. “The scholarships to go to MIT are much higher than the ones you get from Cambridge.””</p>
<p>Obviously only a fool would not take a free quality education at MIT over any at Oxbridge. US unis give a lot of scolarships hence it is more attractive for cross oveer but as the article clearly says only a “small but growing” pool are going, not he majority as you lamely claimed. Only 15 UK students went to Harvard, I bet if they do not get the scholarships they would have gone to Oxbridge. So it is small an no way majority.</p>
<p>As the head teacher said:</p>
<p>“These pupils are so good they are spoilt for choice, but it’s only in recent years that they have chosen to go the American route,” explains Lacey. “It’s largely for financial reasons – they get a better deal there.”</p>
<p>Sefago, you are jokes men! lol</p>
<p>You are beginning to crack me up.</p>
<p>So the universities you could cite for grade inflation in comparison to Harvard, Yale and co are “They cited individual courses at Glasgow, Kent and Northampton universities”.</p>
<p>That is funny, mate.</p>
<p>Is that all you have for grade inflation in UK? Who cares what mediocre Unis are doing?</p>
<p>Mediocre unis’ grade inflation in the US would be worse!</p>
<p>“People being rejected at Oxford are getting easily into Harvard.”</p>
<p>Are they?</p>
<p>You seem to have a different interpretation for Gordon’s action than the Guardian. The girl who came back to Cambridge to do her degree did so because of probably teh difficulty of getting into any medical school in the US for foreigners.</p>
<p>That article was written in 2008- things would have changed drstically now with the bad economy, and Oxbridge facilities deteriorating.</p>
<p>Also note- British people have to take the SAT and A-levels to apply to the US. Would help u in comparing systems</p>