Reasoning with High Schooler over college selection

<p>OP- there is not a single college on your list (I’m guessing on the colleges you haven’t heard from yet) where I would be worried about internship opportunities. Hands-on vs. book learning is going to vary by discipline, not so much by college if you’re talking about hands-on specifically in the sciences. And degree requirements- that’s something which your D is probably better equipped to weigh in on than you. If a college has a core, and you don’t like the core, but your D thinks it’s fascinating- are you really going to eliminate Columbia or MIT because of the core?</p>

<p>Since Cornell seems to be in the picture, I thought I should point out that it’s a great place for CS, and it offers the option of a CS major within more than one school (and switching schools is not particularly difficult). This can be handy depending on the student’s other interests. A CS major in Arts and Sciences will take different courses outside the major than a CS major in Engineering.</p>

<p>On-campus job recruiting is excellent for people in career-oriented majors such as CS. (I am the parent of a Cornell graduate. She and her friends, some of whom were in computer-related majors, all got good jobs at the worst point in the recession, and most of them got those jobs through on-campus recruiting.)</p>

<p>Also, on a more trivial level, freshmen can get singles in the dorms and the food is much better than average. </p>

<p>On the other hand, Cornell is in the middle of nowhere (compared to your daughter’s other choices), it has a strong Greek culture (although a large chunk of the campus avoids the Greek scene entirely), and it only guarantees housing for two years (a potential dealkiller for people who want to live all four years in the dorms). And then there’s the weather…</p>

<p>hi Much2learn…that is a lot of transcontinental travel you have planned there. I have in depth knowledge of all three, CU, CMU, and Cal (attended two of em). CMU computer science has a “vibe” like nothing else I have seen, except MIT. Cal has very few hippies left, on campus. Students complain about not being able to get into classes and graduate in 4 years. But…it’s Berkeley! CU is another place entirely-- the only non city campus of the three and alarmingly beautiful, physically. If you can do the visits, I would say it’s important. HTH</p>

<p>thingamajig: Thank you for your comments.</p>

<p>CMU: Can you explain the CMU vibe? I have never been to CMU. How are CMU and MIT different from other schools? The stereotype seems to be that a higher percentage of students than is typical lack social intelligence, and that leads to a culture that is weak in the elements of socializing and fun that are the a big part of the college experience at other schools. How much truth is there to that in your experience?</p>

<p>Berkeley: DD is a Regents candidate at Berkeley, priority registration comes with it, so getting classes less of a problem, but concerned about budget cuts, and larger classes with a 17:1 student: prof ratio vs. 9:1 at Cornell. The weather is a big plus though and so is proximity to the Silicon Valley for CS majors. Any other thoughts?</p>

<p>Cornell: She was impressed with the school overall, but needs to get comfortable that the CS program measures up to other top programs. Also concerned about internships or research opportunities due to the remote location. Any thoughts about this?</p>

<p>Which one would you prefer, and why?</p>

<p>Cost is not a primary concern. </p>

<p>I have heard stories about introductory CS classes at Cal having several thousand students, necessitating the use of giant TV screens to project the lectures. </p>

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<p>More the latter, as some students may or may not like large doses of physics, electronics, humanities, and social studies to go along with their CS courses.</p>

<p>Requirements within the CS major may also matter, although a CS major may be likely to go beyond the requirements in CS courses anyway, so the breadth and depth of CS offerings may be more important. All of the top choices listed should be good in this respect, though there may be some specialty areas more available at one versus the others.</p>

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<p>Why does this keep getting repeated when it is not true? The students on the Berkeley forum do not complain about it, and four year graduation rates at Berkeley have been rising and are among the highest of public universities (probably more related to admissions selectivity than anything else).</p>

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<p>Huge, but not that huge. About 1,100 last fall and 600 this spring for CS 61A. Berkeley is not the only school with huge introductory CS courses.</p>

<p>Just to clarify a comment made earlier today, for the Fall of 2013 CMU admitted 345 into the School of Computer Science and 136 decided to attend:</p>

<p><a href=“http://admission.enrollment.cmu.edu/pages/undergraduate-admission-statistics”>http://admission.enrollment.cmu.edu/pages/undergraduate-admission-statistics&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>We visited CMU and Cornell back-to-back, and they are NOT the same school at all! If your daughter really liked Cornell’s environment, she probably will not like CMU. Cornell is a big school – bigger than even the undergrad numbers indicated due to all the grad students and campus sprawl (every building seemed to have an acre lawn with it). The campus was really spread out and pristine. CMU is much smaller and much less polished (except the new CS building, which is gorgeous). Cornell had formal offices, tours, and our meetings with staff were pretty formal as well. CMU meetings were all casual, and I actually wandered away from the tour for a few minutes in one building and it was no big deal. Also, the town around CMU is hip – Ithica around Cornell seemed like a little resort town, complete with fine dining and apartments. These are one-day impressions from two years ago, but they are definitely night and day. Son loved CMU and wasn’t interested in Cornell at the time.</p>

<p>I agree with Daddio3 about the environment around CU and CMU, having visited both within the past year-- Cornell is emphatically not in the city. CMU computer science just seems amazing-- activity around the clock, public lectures on fascinating topics, students obviously engrossed in tech heavy discussions all around the campus (writing on whiteboards in the hallways) and especially in CS areas, Randy Pausch, Herb Simon, spinoff tech companies being formed at a regular rate. I am not a computer scientist, but when i was there i felt like i wanted to become one-- or try to make my kids get interested in becoming one. I am even less familiar with Cornell CS, but many people in academic CS travel among the three schools and so someone at CMU could probably comment on Cornell CS and vice versa, to help you compare. I don’t know about Cal CS, but when UC development calls my house and I ask what year they are in, the student workers often state “I am a third year sophomore” or “I am a fifth year senior”…those students are some of the ones that are having trouble getting out in four years for whatever reason. </p>

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<p>Such students are probably outliers. 70% or so of those entering Berkeley and UCLA as frosh graduate in four years. UCLA additionally notes that 80% graduate in 12 quarters (= 4 academic years’ worth of school), indicating some take more calendar time but not additional school time (due to taking breaks for whatever reason).</p>

<p>I know a lot of people, myself included, who LOVED certain collges “on paper,” but could not stomach them during a visit. It’s not a knock against the school; people just like different things. </p>

<p>I would also suggest that parents who complain that their kids focused on the wrong things might themselves be focused on the wrong things. It can be very difficult to articulate exactly why something rubs you the wrong way, so if often comes off as flaky. “I didn’t like the student union” could be code for “I noticed that everyone in the student union looked unhappy/hung over/stressed/bored, and there were no activities going on.” </p>

<p>My niece did many college visits as a jr., but was not interested in visiting top three acceptances as senior. My sis-in-law convinced her to just go back for one on one meeting with chair of interested major. She reluctantly agreed. My niece’s intended number 1 turned out to be not what she expected. The conversation with the chair and the students she encountered that day made number one drop off the radar. She ended up going with original number 2 choice and graduated happy and employed!</p>

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<p>I think it’s a CC-myth that gets repeated over and over again as a way of rationalizing paying ~$60K for a private university – it’s not just a Berkeley thing, you will see posters say the same thing concerning just about any public university. The idea is that the public school is costlier than it looks because of that fifth year. </p>

<p>Of course there are many students who don’t complete within four years, often because of poor planning or change of major – and also because any public school will have some students who are paying their own way and commuting, so they might take a reduced course load because of the impact their jobs have on their available time. </p>

<p>But it’s not really a Berkeley thing. </p>

<p>My older son went to CMU. I think about 90% of the class was rejected from MIT, they are very very strong students. While the vibe at SCS is pretty nerdy, there are plenty of other options on campus. (I’ll admit my son’s social life, revolved around playing board games with friends and hanging out in the Linux clustel, but that’s his idea of fun - there’s plenty of traditional fun too.) There’s a pretty low key Greek scene, lots to do in the city (and five other colleges). SCS requires a minor so theoretically at least you can get to know people in another department. CMU has a higher proportion of driven kids who already know what they want to be when they grow up. In particular the Art, Architecture, Drama, Engineering and Business programs are going to draw those types. Twice my son benefited from the CMU network in getting internships. Once when his original internship fell victim to the 2007 financial crisis, and once when CMU interns recommended that Google interview him for an internship the following summer. He spent his summers in Silicon Valley proximity did not seem to be an issue. There are a number of computer companies with local offices. </p>

<p>One thing that really surprised me is the strength of the alumni network. My kid got to know CMU alumni on line and met them at Carnival the big homecoming festival, that is like nothing I’ve seen on any other campus. He’s gone back to a few Carnivals himself.</p>

<p>I saw quite a few posts on the first page with phrases like " I wouldn’t let my kid go to a school without visiting". Most of these kids are 18. Not really your decision. As parents, sometimes we have to let our kids make choices that may not be the best. Kids that are smart enough to get into this type of school will figure it out. Are the kids paying or are you? If you are paying, you have a say, but I would recommend that parents get out and let their adult children be adults. They will often learn more from their mistakes than from you making decisions for them.</p>

<p>As a first generation immigrant, I still don’t quite get the point of visiting colleges. Kids go to college for education so as long as College A can best meet the education requirement, that should be one. Definitely a first world problem. </p>

<p>As long as I, the parent, am on the hook for PAYING for that education, you can bet your sweet life I’m going to expect my kid to visit the school one more time to be certain. Would you buy a house, or let your child buy a house you have to help pay for, without stepping foot in it and getting a home inspection? Because that’s the kind of money we’re talking about. I’d agree that it’s a “first world” problem if we were talking about community college, but not schools with price tags of anywhere from $25,000 to $60,000 a year for four years. YMMV.</p>

<p>Same as LucieTheLakie. Not going to let them waste my hard-earned dollars on a decision they didn’t at least try to investigate as thoroughly as possible. If my kid thought going to accepted student days at her top few choices was too much work or not worth the trouble, I wouldn’t find it worth the trouble to write a deposit or tuition check. Hardly any kids are paying all or even most of their own college costs today, unless they are going to an in-state school (which is easy to visit and they are likely familiar with).</p>

<p>Well how many kids visit school to find out thier academic merit? Often I hear “I don’t have the feel for the school” or “the student body is boring” or the “cafeteria is bad” or “I don’t see anyone on campus that I imagine I would like spend 4-years with” or “I don’t like the setting”. As I said in my post, I expect my child to select a school based on it’s academic merit; as long as he does that research, and I can vouch for the validity, I will be happy to pay for it. After all he is going to college to learn, other things should be secondary. If the best program for his intended major is offered by Dartmouth but he is a city kid (an example), I will be quite upset if he can not “tough it up” for 4 years at Hanover. How many of us have the luxury to pick a company to work for based on “fit”? </p>

<p>For the options our kids have and are allowed to have, I say this is a first world problem.</p>

<p>Bears, of course it’s a first world problem. But if your kid is deciding between Dartmouth and Columbia, both with equally top rankings in his field of study, and the costs to you are the same within $200 bucks per year- are you really going to force your kid to go to Dartmouth just to prove a point if he prefers Columbia?</p>

<p>You’re being argumentative. We all get that in a world of kids suffering from malnutrition and easily treated diseases, these discussions about college are silly. But- you’re going to make your own kid “tough it up” just because you don’t live in Somalia? When he might prefer something else with an equally good reputation which doesn’t cost you more?</p>