Reasons to pick Carleton over Yale

Parents Forum
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<p>Agreed. And what about the other 30%? (Lots of great kids among 'em, too!) Hey, you'll find some at all pricey prestige schools (even if not in as large numbers), so this shouldn't be seen as Bulldog-bashing.</p>

<p>But this was a concern expressed by the OP, not by me, and it is a real one. To quote:</p>

<p>"Except for her last two years of high school in an arts boarding school (which she attended on nearly full scholarship) she attended very urban public schools and has little tolerance for sense of entitlement."</p>

<p>One could better argue that it would be a good experience to increase her tolerance level, rather than that she wouldn't need to. (And her attendance would be a good thing for other Yalies, or she wouldn't have been admitted!)</p>

42

<p>Aside--Mini, et all - take you side conversations off line privately! Or to the chat cafe. This really junks up a more specific thread.--end</p>

<p>The girl who chose Carleton over Harvard graduated from dd's school, though she was only there one year. Still it was a pretty startling decision to the other kids. I'll ask dd if she has heard about her first year.</p>

<p>Also I work with a guy who graduated from Yale in 1997. He was also accepted to Swat. He makes the point that he never regretted going to a larger school, but has plenty of friends who did regret going to the smaller schools.</p>

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<p>Not my or other folks'' conversation. It was the OP's. To quote the OP again:</p>

<p>"Except for her last two years of high school in an arts boarding school (which she attended on nearly full scholarship) she attended very urban public schools and has little tolerance for sense of entitlement."</p>

<p>But I'll stop. It has played itself out, and I think the OP got the info and input she asked for.</p>

44

<p>mini- I guess our family is one of those Yale families who receive no aid because we can afford it. We do feel lucky that we can, but it's not without sacrifice. Basically, we are taking out a loan to ease the pain. This is what colleges expect, because although we have a decent income, 45k a year after taxes is not in our budget. My kid has a job during the summers and just got one ( working for a grad student) this semester as well. No fancy cars, no fancy vacations. She will get to go abroad for a month this summer with a Yale grant. We have a son who will be in college soon. We're living frugally. My D will need a fellowship if she wants to go to grad school. If my D's roomates are any indication, we are not an uncommon phenomenon at Yale. I've been there several times and don't see a lot of flaunted wealth. I see a lot of kids working very hard and taking advantage of every opportunity they can possibly fit into their schedules.</p>

<p>to the op; My D had the option of Carleton or Yale, (and Swat.) She chose Yale because of what she felt were wider opportunities offered in a larger world-class university. She would have loved Carleton too, I'm sure, and would be receiving excellent academics. I think she's getting a more worldly education at Yale, however, which mattered to her, as she came from a small suburban setting. The city, the diversity, the grad school influence, 5,200 exceptional students from all over the world, first-rate profs (who have been very accessible, I will say), are all contributing a great deal to her education.</p>

45

<p>Mini,</p>

<p>Still wondering ... did your D apply to Yale or the like?</p>

46

<p>Sascha, I'm curious to know why your daughter has ruled out Brown. It seems like a half-way point between Carleton and Yale.</p>

47

<p>One of my daughter's good friends in H.S. attended Smith. She liked the education but thought the social atmosphere overly constraining (and she is openly gay.).</p>

48

<p>Mini—I’m trying to follow your logic here…</p>

<p>Presumably you have nurses and sanitation workers in Olympia, Washington, too, and presumably they earn a lot less than they would in New York City. And presumably some of these families from Olympia qualify for financial aid (though they may well live in houses much nicer than “those average $1.2 million dollar two-room rat-infested walk-ups in Manhattan”). According to your reasoning, the children of those nurses and sanitation workers in Washington are presumed to be the salt of the earth, whereas those from a part of the country where salaries and housing costs are vastly higher--and whose standard of living may actually be lower--must be spoiled rich kids with maids and fancy cars whose "entitlement" poisons the air of any school that admits too many of them.</p>

<p>And this shouldn’t be seen as Bulldog-bashing? :confused:</p>

<p>Mini, you’ve previously posted about your own experience at Williams back in “the Paleozoic Era, [where] coming from a far lower economic bracket than the overwhelming majority of students, I remember the differences in the way many students perceived the world, and their actual experience of it: the kinds of cars they drove (and whether they had cars at all), the clothes they wore, the discretionary income they had on campus, the sports they participated in, where they went for winter and spring break, the kinds of summer jobs they had (and whether they carried an on-campus job at all), how well traveled they were, whether they were fluent in other languages, whether they assumed they could afford expensive professional schools after college…” (<a href="http://www.collegeconfidential.com/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?70/88070%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.collegeconfidential.com/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?70/88070&lt;/a&gt;). You have devoted tremendous time and energy to devising a formula—the “Entitlement,” or “Preppy,” Index—that purportedly proves that certain schools (Williams, of course, and Yale also seems to have offended you in some way) are still bastions of haughty privilege, while your daughter’s Smith isn’t like that at all.</p>

<p>I wouldn’t presume to question your experience at Williams or your daughter’s at Smith. But I also came from a far-from-affluent family (I had campus jobs, summer jobs, and no junkets on winter or spring break; I got my first a car—a used junker that cost $400--when I went to grad school, which I could afford only because I received a fellowship), and my experience at Yale wasn’t like that at all. Yes, there were some very rich students and some very poor ones—but personally, I never met so many nice Jewish public school kids (like myself) in my life.</p>

<p>Sascha—you indicated all along that you were leaning toward Carleton, and that may well be the very best fit for your daughter. There could be any number of reasons to choose that over Yale (including the fact that you went there yourself; my daughter is at Yale now, and there’s something wonderful about sharing a common frame of reference)—only I’d take Mini’s "objective" arguments about rich, entitled Yalies with a pinch of salt.</p>

49

<p>Maybe things have changed somewhat in the past thirty years, but I understand Mini's point. I was a first-generation college student at Cornell my first two years of college; Cornell probably would have had the lowest score on Mini's entitlement index of any school in its football league, but I still experienced considerable culture shock. My first work-study job, as a garbage man for three freshman dorms, underscored some of the lessons I was receiving in the nature of class privilege; it's amazing how many people pretend you're invisible when you're carrying a garbage can. I was acutely aware of the paradox of my situation, which served as pretty good fuel for my personal ambition. The things I learned carrying garbage were among the most important things I learned in college.</p>

50

<p>Things have cetainly changed a great deal in the last 30 years. This last month there was a rally and sit in, and a petition signed by hundreds of undergrads asking Pres. Levin at Yale to increase the amount of financial aid to students who qualify. Students are not ashamed of being unable to afford 40k a year.
Remember, it hasn't been too much more than 30 years since women were even admitted to the ivy schools. The culture on these campuses is very different now than when we were in college.</p>

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<p>I wasn't ashamed of needing financial aid, or of working as a garbage man. And Cornell has been coeducational since 1871.</p>

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<p>Yale vs. Carleton:</p>

<p>On the issue of entitlement, Yale and Carleton cost about the same. The USN&WR 2003 edition reports that 37% of students receive financial aid, and the average package is $18,482. At Carleton, 53% receive financial aid and the average package is $17, 591. Besides these different ratios, the majority of Carleton students probably come from middle class and upper-miccle class families. Some Yalies probably come from mega-rich families or blue blood families without the megabucks but the same feeling of entitlement. I know that Yale's architecture generates a sense of wow among some and intimidates others in a way that Carleton does not.
Still, I think the OP's D needs to ask herself not where she will feel most comfortable in her first semester but where she will feel comfortable in her last semester. There are some who would argue that since college is such a major transition, students should minimize the discomfort. Others argue the opposite: since college is such a major transition anyway, might as well tqke the plunge at the deep end. That's what I did, although I am normally the most cautious of souls. I have never regretted being stretched to the utmost, but it is a very personal decision.</p>

53

<p>All--I am so grateful for all the thoughtful responses. Re: the question about why not Brown--we visited Providence and my daughter took about three hours to rule the place out, on not much evidence. Basically I think she found that the student body, on the surface, seemed too uniformly similar to herself -- lots and lots of PC kids, it didn't feel diverse in this regard in the way that Yale does. And she's heard this point from others. I think we both were influenced by a NY Times Magazine article a couple of years back which featured Brown and Wesleyan on the subject of transexuals. It's not that my daughter has anything against transexuals, she's as open minded as any liberal 17-year old, but the article left the impression that these schools were unduly wrapped up in relatively unimportant in the grand scheme of things but very PC issues. Plus I think she bought my point, which perhaps was wrong, that Brown and Yale, both elite East Coast universities, are not that fundamentally different so why not go with Yale, which her cousin attended and just adored, whereas Carleton (and Swarthmore) is an altogether different animal.</p>

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<p>I think it is clear that if she wants diversity, she cannot get the same level at Carleton as at Yale. Much as we loved Carleton (son applied and was accepted) it is simply too homogeneous. She sounds like a very thoughtful kid and Carleton is clearly a fabulous school, but if she discounted Brown on the "too uniformly similar to myself" criterion...she would be hard pressed to go to C.</p>

<p>I agree with Marite, I would encourage her to consider pushing herself a bit...the boundaries of her comfort level that is...Just my opinion...</p>

55

<p>Greybeard - sorry, I wasn't suggesting that you were. My point was that students today are quite supportive of their fellow students who need aid. More so than in "our day", I believe. Also, many students who don't qualify for aid but still need money (average middle class kids) work at Yale in various capacities, so the lines are not very distinct between those who are and are not on aid. I think this is true at most major universities today, not just Yale.
Being able to afford it along with decent grades (and being male, for some) used to be about all you needed for a spot at one of these institutions, but not any more.</p>