Reed vs St. Johns vs New College of Florida

<p>Well they like to see a variety of books read, and you seem to have an eclectic taste! The fact that you’re applying there in the first place proves that you are interested in philosophy and comparative literature. I would highly recommend St. John’s if you want a well-rounded education.</p>

<p>Actually I haven’t read much on philosophy or literature. But I do appreciate them and willing to read them. As we read and think, there is always some questions philosophical.</p>

<p>If a hardcore Liberal Arts education is what you want, go to St. John’s College. First of all, we’re all great books, all the time. If you’re going to submit yourself to this weird, intense kind of education, why do it halfway? Go all out. </p>

<p>To those who want St John’s to update its curriculum or expand it’s authors list, I say this: the best kept secret about the college is that much of the learning goes on outside the classroom, in study groups consisting of both tutors and students. </p>

<p>If you want to read Rand or Orwell or some of the moderns, you’ll find faculty and peers who are willing to invest as much time into a regular study group on it that they would if it were a regular class. I was able to study Shakespeare in a classroom like setting all four years at SJC – and you can study pretty much anything you want, if you’re willing to add it on top of your regular workload, which many are. </p>

<p>If you want to learn Latin or German there are regular unofficial classes on it. I think I’ve seen Russian and Hebrew books as well, and study groups on everything from Xenophon to Classical Liberal Economics to Ken Burns’ History of Jazz. </p>

<p>There really is no upper limit to how much you can learn while you’re there, and the tutors (our professors) are uncommonly willing to devote their time to studying them with you. </p>

<p>Stealing from a 2010 convocation address: </p>

<p>"If the objective of a St. John’s education is freedom, or free men and women, how does St. John’s help its students attain this freedom? The answer is through an all-required curriculum in the liberal arts. The St. John’s curriculum is not as radical perhaps as the program Plato lays out in The Republic, which the freshmen and graduate students in Liberal Arts will study later this year. Yet all the undergraduates study four years of mathematics; four years of language, two of ancient Greek and two of French; three years of laboratory science; two years of music; four years of seminar; and allows for only two electives, what we call preceptorials. These courses are reflected in the senior essays. And a graduate curriculum in both Eastern Classics and Liberal Arts that is similarly structured. A curriculum for graduate students and undergraduates which is based on reading and discussing original texts, many of which were written hundreds, even thousands, of years ago, some in now dead languages. Texts that are sometimes referred to as Great Books.
Why original texts; why Great Books, eastern or western? How do they contribute to making free men and women?
They do so by raising the most fundamental, important and eternal questions. Questions that are as alive today as they were centuries ago. Questions of character and virtue, questions of human relations, questions of power and politics, questions of war and peace, questions of life and death, questions of who we are and where we are going, questions of the divine and more. We grapple with these questions precisely because they provide insights that may guide us today in our personal lives and in our lives as citizens and members of a global society. Questions that are the foundation of freedom.
The St. John’s curriculum may, on the surface, seem not only the antithesis of freedom, but even anti-democratic, as choice is the essence of democracy. However, although the curriculum is determined, the education that emerges from this curriculum is anything but. Choice is abundant in the questions that are raised and the manner in which they are addressed as is evident in the senior essay topics. In fact, we believe that we have the most democratic classrooms possible. Nothing is predetermined. Every question is open for discussion. Everyone is equal in the classroom and has a voice before the texts and the ideas they contain. Classes at St. John’s are led by tutors, not professors. Tutors, who are here because they want to learn with the students, not lecture or profess. The conversation begins with a question from the tutor, but the class responds to the questions of all. The texts themselves are the teachers. Learning is the goal and questions are the means. " </p>

<p>If you’re willing to really let the books get into your soul and teach you and change you, go to St. John’s. We make free men from children by means of books and a balance. There is no substitute.</p>

<p>I thought I’d chime in and talk briefly about the scientific side of St John’s. I graduated with Kate and have since been working at the national lab in Los Alamos. I’ve been accepted to a graduate degree program in radiochemistry at Hunter College in Manhattan. The regular humanities are a thing of beauty at St. John’s, but the math and sciences (these are humanities, too) outshines them. I came to St. John’s with a philosophy degree and the intention of going on to a philosophy PhD program afterwards. By the end of the first year, I was convinced that I belonged in the sciences.</p>

<p>I don’t really know how to compare my school to other schools, but I will relate the following story: While I was visiting Hunter, one of the current grad students and I struck up a conversation about the humanities (he called them ‘hume’ because he turned out to be from Reed, I thought he was referring to the philosopher at first). He started talking about Homer and I quoted the first lines of the Iliad in Greek. His jaw dropped: “You read it in Greek?!”</p>

<p>As another St. John’s alum, I most definitely want speak on behalf of the Program.
When applying to colleges, my decision came down to the Great Books Program at St. Johns, or a science degree from Agnes Scott. Ultimately, I made the decision to go to St. John’s because I did not trust myself at age 18 to know what I wanted to do with my life. The emphasis on the individual education and ‘learning to learn’ at St. John’s was very appealing. From my perspective, a student might have a highly employable science degree, but if that same student realizes a few years after graduation that they went into debt for a degree and job they can’t stand, that degree is ultimately less useful than the ‘unemployable’ liberal arts degree that might have helped them learn what makes them happy.<br>
I went to St. John’s because the Program promised to teach me to learn, and I feel the school has fulfilled that promise. I am very satisfied with the education I received, and with the graduate program I am currently in as a result. (Master of Divinity at Vanderbilt)</p>

<p>I will say that the financial aid is less than ideal at St. John’s. It is, in my opinion, the weakest aspect of the school. I do feel the education I got is well worth the price. I was prepared to accept debt as part of my college plan. My family is not very well off and I have always known that if I wanted a college education, I would need to take out loans and work my way through school.
In spite of the necessary debt, it is because of my experience at St. John’s that I am at Vanderbilt with a full ride. </p>

<p>@cywood,
I want to encourage you to apply to St. John’s, and not worry so much about what the admissions committee will think. As stated before, St. John’s is a very self-selective school, and your personal interest already raises your chances of acceptance. However, 100% of the people who don’t apply, don’t get accepted.
For your admissions essay, write about something you care about and don’t be afraid to let your passion come through. The education at St. John’s is unique because it is dependent on every individual in the classroom having a personal experience with the texts at hand. The more you engage with the texts on a personal level, the more you can engage with the class, the more you learn.
Also, you would not be alone. There has been a steady increase in international students at St. John’s, many (if not most) are from China and Korea. Many international students bring two copies of their readings to class, one in English and one in their primary language. Essays are written in English, but are not graded for grammatical perfection, but rather how the individual is progressing. If your writing shows genuine contemplation, effort, and steady improvement, your tutor will take this into account for your Don Rag. There are also writing tutors available specifically to help students edit and improve any essay they submit.
If you are very concerned with your language proficiency, you can ask the admissions office to put you in touch with one of the tutors who could specifically advise you on navigating St. John’s as a foreign student. Off hand, I know of at least two tutors at the Annapolis campus who speak Chinese. </p>

<p>In short, if you think St. John’s might be a good school for you, please apply! There are many tutors, students, and alumni ready to speak with you about the life and education available at St. John’s and you are encouraged to ask questions, even if you ultimately decide to pursue an education elsewhere.</p>

<p>Marshallmeyer12, Katehavard, BCarney, and KAsher, thank you for your advices! Every Johnnie I communicated is very helpful.</p>

<p>I’m a senior of college and near the graduation date. If I’ve already hold a bachelor degree, there are few U.S. colleges I can apply to, since I have much financial need. (resources are limited even in the States)</p>

<p>SJC does permit me to apply and receive financial aid if I already have a bachelor degree, and says the SJC admission committee will consider all the variables as a whole. And of course SJC is my first choice. If I get my bachelor degree, it would be my only choice.</p>

<p>I guess I will get my bachelor degree of economics in China,I don’t want to give myself and my family too much pressure. I know I haven’t learn a lot from my curriculum, I learn outside from my curriculum. Maybe some friends know there is a Great Leap in China’s higher education, it’s a disaster for intellectuals. I didn’t get a good score in Gaokao(Chinese version SAT), and I came to a local, non-prestigious university in 2009 and till now.</p>

<p>I’m afraid if I get my bachelor degree, is it less likely to be admitted by SJC and get a good financial aid, even the full need scholarship? </p>

<p>“All aid is based on financial need. For non-US citizens the college offers one full-need scholarship annually on each campus, in addition to an unlimited number of institutional assistance awards covering up to 65% of current tuition, room, and board.”</p>

<p>@KAsher: you mentioned there are at least two tutors can speak Chinese. I find out one is Mr. Lijun Hu, is that right? anyone else? I guess Hu is also a pro-democracy student in 1980s in China. But I can not find out his email.</p>

<p>cywood! Hello! I am a junior high school student from Shanghai. I admired your courage to attend St. Johns—quite unique school! In fact, there are many articles talking about St.johns on the cuus.org( the Chinese version of CC). It is quite true that the education system in china has some mistakes. Many students admire the top universities in U.S. However, many Chinese students go to the top UNIs or LACs like the HYPSM OR WAS. Their majors are engineering, finance, pre-law… They want to be in THAT STREET, TOP LAW SCHOOL, and big companies. Although most of people in cuus.org have known st.johns, too few people will apply it. Good luck!</p>

<p>Thank you, Chenshensheng88. I would define my formal education as a destruction. I want to reconstruct and live a examined life.</p>

<p>I’m sure there would be more and more people who can find themselves, rather than lose themselves, be true to their own interests and passion, pursue their real dreams, and achieve potential.</p>

<p>Also best wishes to you!</p>

<p>Hi cywood,</p>

<p>I support your choice to finish your current program. Because of the intention of the Great Books Program, I do not think you will be discriminated against for holding another degree. I know several students who have graduated from other institutions and still completed the St. John’s curriculum for personal reasons. Like you, most people attend St. John’s to fulfill a personal desire and not to fulfill job requirements.
Two B.A.s might be redundant, however, and one option you might want to consider is the graduate program. The graduate program is on the same campus as the undergraduates, and offers a Master’s degree in a certain focus (I think maths, literature, philosophy, and some form of political science) still with the seminar style and similar Great Books curriculum. Given your extracurricular focus and graduated status, you might prefer this as an option.
St. John’s will not care that you already have a bachelor’s degree, or that your test scores are low. You do not even have to submit your scores with your application if you do not wish to. I cannot speak on the subject of financial aid for foreign students, but I know St. John’s really does try to meet student needs. It doesn’t always succeed (obviously) but as someone who had to deal with the Financial Aid office frequently, I can advise you to be frank and discuss your needs with them. </p>

<p>As for the Chinese tutors, they are listed on the faculty website: [St</a>. John’s College | About | Annapolis | Faculty](<a href=“http://www.stjohnscollege.edu/about/AN/AN_faculty.shtml#gu]St”>http://www.stjohnscollege.edu/about/AN/AN_faculty.shtml#gu)
[St</a>. John’s College | About | Annapolis | Faculty](<a href=“http://www.stjohnscollege.edu/about/AN/AN_faculty.shtml#yee]St”>http://www.stjohnscollege.edu/about/AN/AN_faculty.shtml#yee)
if you contact anyone in the administrative or admissions offices, they will probably happily put you in contact with one or both of them. Mr. Yee’s email address is listed under his name on the faculty website.
The best advice I can give is; do not be afraid to contact people on campus. The administrators at St. John’s genuinely want to help people get to know the Program. The admissions office and alumni offices are full of people who will do their best to answer your questions, and if they cannot they will put you in contact with someone who can. When I was first considering going to St. John’s, the admissions office put me in contact with an alumna who lived near me, simply so I could meet with someone who could speak honestly about the St. John’s experience.</p>

<p>Great point, KAsher.</p>

<p>Hi, KAsher, thank you for your valuable advice! I’ve sent inquiry emails to both Mr. Gu and Mr. Yee just now. Thank you!</p>

<p>Hey cywood,</p>

<p>Another Johnnie here, hoping that you’ve had some good luck getting in touch with folks at SJC. If there are any other questions that you might have now or down the road, feel free to message me and I can either try to answer or connect you with someone who will have the answer. I graduated with some of the folks who have already posted in this forum, and I can attest to the strength of everything they’ve said. The most common worry about SJC is that it somehow won’t prepare you for a job or for further graduate study, particularly in the sciences. In my experience, this isn’t true at all. Our graduates are artists, teachers, lawyers, astrophysicists, engineers, doctors, you name it. I got a fellowship through the college to work in astronomy at the United States Naval Observatory while I was at the school, and now I’m at Columbia studying education. I had such a great learning experience at SJC that I now plan to make a career out of passing on the enthusiasm for learning and community that I found in college.</p>

<p>Thank you, scottyb2012, thank you all on CC. I’m quite moved by CC folks’ willingness to offer a help.</p>

<p>I had some bad experience on a chinese site similar to CC. I sent inquiry messages to 5 johnnies who came from China, but no one replied. I did find a Chinese johnnie elsewhere very helpful. He graduated in 2012 from SF campus, and went to Temple U to study music.</p>

<p>I do have worries about SJC.
Through my four years in university( I graduated from HS in 2009, entering into a local university studying a vocational economics major), I gradually found that my best value is to be an intellectual, and I gained a better understanding of myself and my country. There are many opportunities my country currently cannot provide. Academics and intellectuals are still struggling for indepedence and freedom. So I made my mind to redo undergraduate study in the States. I’m willing to spend another 4 years.</p>

<p>So far, I have some academics interests, in sciences like biology, psychology, polisci, and humanities like history, philosophy. I don’t really know which I am interested or good at most. So I want another 4 year to explore before settle into a particular major. I want to pursue a PhD.</p>

<p>I do have some worry about SJC, like you’ve mentioned, scottyb2012. If I only interested in humannitis, SJC is perfect for me.(but SJC do not provide full-need financial aid for int. students) I remained my interests in natural sciences from HS, and developed new interests in social sciences, having concerns about history and democratization of China. By reading Great Books, can I have a good opportunity to explore all disciplines? If I find sciences, such as psychology is my favorite, what additional preparation do I need to pursue PhD level education when in SJC? Scottyb2012, you mentioned you got a fellowship through years in SJC to work in astronomy at the United States Naval Observatory. What kind of preparation did you made to get that fellowship? Behave well and study the workload hard isn’t enough in SJC, right? The liberal arts education is wonderful in SJC, for a human being, while the same time, human beings need to find jobs and make a living, we need to make additional preparation for our lives after graduation? You went to Columbia Teachers college? PhD? What preparation did you made before applying to it? What qualities or strength make you a good candidate?</p>

<p>What about Reed College, another college I’m fascinated? My informations sources only comes from a few college guides and the internet, I can’t make a visit to SJC or Reed (visa, money), nor do I have relatives or friends studying in U.S. undergraduate level.</p>

<p>Hi, I’m cywood, coming from China. I get admitted by St. John’s College, Santa Fe campus for Fall 2013. Thank everyone on this thread!!!</p>

<p>Even though others have done some of the cleanup work, I just wanted to state again for the record: New College offers an intense, rigorous academic experience. </p>

<p>I went to NCF for undergrad, and then Cornell for grad. Given the fact that I was a TA for undergrads at Cornell, I can safely attest to the fact that the NCF’s classroom discourse operates at a higher caliber than that of the particular Cornell department in which I was earning my degree. This is not to say Cornell was weak-- it just didn’t cater to the intensive intellectual exchange that is characteristic of places like NCF, Reed, and Oberlin. All three of the foregoing schools are among the best for PhD training in the traditional liberal arts fields.</p>

<p>Hi josh, I am interested in both reed and new college. How would you describe the student life at new college? If you don’t mind answering, what did you study and how was your experience there? How would you compare it to other schools?</p>

<p>Hi Confucius06. The student life at New College is very student-driven. It’s a no-frills sort of place: it lacks some of the fancy things that similar colleges offer. Instead, there are student-run themed parties every Friday and Saturday called “walls.” Three times a year, there is a huge Palm Court Party, also themed, where it is typical for alumnae/i to attend. Sunday through Thursday are typically quiet on campus. There are no sports or greek life, so academics are the focus. </p>

<p>I studied Psychology and Philosophy, and both were great. My experience there was transformative. I went from being a relatively unmotivated high school student to having to step up my game just to stay afloat at New College. By the time I graduated, I did well enough to get into all of the graduate schools I applied to. It’s the type of place where it’s cool to be smart, and where a large proportion of the students are serious about going to a top graduate program. That environment was one in which I thrived, and one in which there was often just as much learning outside of the classroom as there was during class. </p>

<p>Compared to other schools, New College students are more liberal, more tolerant of deviant lifestyles, and more likely to want to go to graduate school. Though the campus isn’t luxurious, it’s really nice if you’re into the Florida thing. I’d say it’s the only liberal arts college of its kind in a place with truly spectacular weather. The faculty are accessible, and, by virtue of the contract and thesis systems, it’s almost required that one develop a close relationship with them. </p>

<p>But based on what I’ve read about Reed, it seems like the schools are similar. My brother went to Oberlin, and that was also in the same mold. If I had to draw distinctions, I would say that Reed is in the best location of the three, and it has the most structured curriculum. Oberlin’s claim to fame is its amazing co-op system, as well as the presence of the conservatory. They both also have the sort of endowment that provides more luxury and prestige. </p>

<p>New College rejects the fewest applicants of the three, but it still attracts a very similar-- though much more middle class-- sort of student. Many of us chose New College primarily for the bargain price tag. The main disadvantage is that New College doesn’t have the same national reputation as the other strong liberal arts colleges. But if you’re going to parlay the experience into a strong grad program, that might not matter.</p>

<p>Note that only 20% of NCF students are not from Florida, and NCF considers state residence when admitting students (is being Floridian a plus or minus?).</p>

<p>is being Floridian a plus or minus?).</p>

<p>Including having to live there?</p>

<p>For purposes of admission, being out-of-state is a definite plus. New College used to be a private school before it was absorbed into the state system. Its current admissions strategy is very much focused on returning to the type of geographic diversity that characterized New College’s early days. Though Floridians get in-state tuition as well as generous Bright Futures scholarships, plenty merit aid is still given to attract out-of-state students. </p>

<p>Regarding the question of having to live there: I had a friend whose extended family owned property in FL and was able to get the in-state rate. But Bright Futures requires having graduated from a FL high school. Even if you don’t qualify for Bright Futures, the in-state rate, plus the almost automatic merit scholarships that everyone gets, make NCF a great deal. Check online for the merit aid calculator. It’s very formulaic, and everyone is eligible.</p>