<p>Now all of these schools are unconventional, but what are the perks of attending each one of these schools individually? Which one would you choose?</p>
<p>I would, and in fact did, choose Reed in a heartbeat.</p>
<p>I used St John’s as one of my safeties, but to be perfectly honest, I wouldn’t apply to it now if I had to go through the process again. The Great Books curriculum sounds interesting on paper, but I think it does truly limit the student in terms of potential fields of work or further study. It also excludes the possibility of studying modern thinkers and scientists, cultures other than that of Western Europe, sciences, and foreign languages; St John’s usual response to that is that the Great Books curriculum helps you to develop the critical thinking skills you need to delve into those fields of study on your own, but the school’s general inability to educate PhDs in any field other than philosophy, literature and intellectual history belies that claim. Also, St John’s has a very small endowment (bad fin aid), very small campuses, and limited resources. That being said, I’ve heard the New Mexico campus is gorgeous and really friendly.</p>
<p>I did not apply to New College of Florida because, again, it has a very meagre endowment. In addition, its campus is unappealing and I had heard from several people that the school is not especially rigorous.</p>
<p>Obviously I think Reed is far superior to both, but maybe people in the other schools’ respective subforums can give you a different perspective.</p>
<p>Ghostt, thank you very much for that insight. I am visiting St. Johns soon, and if by the end of the visit, I am interested in “learning for the sake of learning” schools, then I will visit the others! </p>
<p>Thanks again! ~Marshall</p>
<p>Hello, I was accepted to NCF and am awaiting my results from Reed. Initially I was also going to apply to St. Johns College, but it is a very small school and I changed my mind. I have never heard of the reputation that NCF isn’t academically serious, in fact I have heard quite the opposite. Both Reed and NCF require a thesis prior to graduation, have small student bodies (NCF 850, Reed 1500), and are known for their quirky/vibrant/intellectual student body. However, Reed does not offer merit aid where NCF provides hefty scholarships to those worthy. They give a guaranteed scholarship to anyone accepted who applies before Febuary 15th. I suggest you try to visit both, if possible seeing as they are on opposite ends of this country, they were very illuminating experiences.I am most likely going to choose NCF over Bard, Lewis & Clarke, and Reed (if accepted). Good luck on your search!</p>
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<p>I do think that St. John’s College (SJC) should update its reading list. Not to accommodate to modern “Great Books” or works I particularly like, but rather recent works that have had a definitely strong influence on our modern world; eg. works from Ayn Rand, von Hayek, Lord Keynes, George Orwell etc. Their fourth year’s reading list does have the some of the most influential works in the late 19th and early 20th century, I guess, with obviously an emphasis on proto-Existentialists and being an informed American citizen, lol. </p>
<p>What’s okay, you could say, is that it will ground you in the works from that period that have deeply influenced the modern philosophers/thinkers/writers and the general culture of today; you’ll read two works from Hegel, who has deeply molded iek; you’ll read Marx, Aristotle, and others from the enlightenment who have had their fair share of influence on Christopher Hitchens; your eyes will zip through works from Kierkagaard, Nieztsche, Heidegger, and Dostoevski, just a significantly small list of people who have touched Satre. You’re not going to be reading these modern, I’d say, Greats (lol), Christopher Hitchens, Slavoj iek, and Jean-Paul Satre, but you will be well grounded in general ideas/philosophies that helped sculpt them.</p>
<p>For scientists, I’d wonder how of late would you consider “modern?” A good chunk of the reading/lab work, for science, is from the 20th century; obviously most of them being highly influential; Einstein, Bohr, Schrödinger, 20th century biologists…etc. I mean, they’re obviously not reading Michio Kaku or Stephen Hawking, but still relatively modern, in terms of the latest century, and still generally relevant.</p>
<p>Students at St. John’s College have to take two years of both Ancient Greek and French, in the underclassmen years and upperclassmen years, respectively. [lnfo</a>. on SJC’s Foreign Language Tutorials](<a href=“http://sjca.edu/academic/langtutorial.shtml]lnfo”>http://sjca.edu/academic/langtutorial.shtml)</p>
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<p>According to a lot of their alumni I’ve contacted, their brochures, the college’s website and other hear say, most of their students end up doing further graduate work in the humanities, attending law school, or going to medical school. Also, according to the National Science Foundation, SJC is on [the</a> list of the top 50 colleges/unis that produce the most future Science Phd students](<a href=“http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/infbrief/nsf08311/]the”>http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/infbrief/nsf08311/), which is quite a feat for such a small college that doesn’t place too much of an emphasis on the sciences, or instruct the general way these other institutions would hold their science courses. 
Here’s a link for more generally introductory info on what [Johnnies do after graduation.](<a href=“http://learnmore.stjohnscollege.edu/future.html”>http://learnmore.stjohnscollege.edu/future.html</a>)</p>
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<p>I have a strange story about financial aid, lol: A buddy of mine recently got accepted to SJC, and she got an financial aid package covering more than 75%. I mention this because I find it really ironic…and sort of interesting. She’s upper-middle class, she said that her parents could have easily paid all four years at SJC (a cost bordering $200k), in a heart beat, but they still gave her that much aid…keeping in mind how expensive the school is. So, I’d question “bad fin aid” if they’re just giving it away like that. </p>
<p>Small campuses, of course; about 425 students, for each campus. Purposefully done that way. But, to each his own. I’d personally like a small setting like that. >.< lawl</p>
<p>And, yeah I’d say they have limited resources, in comparison to Reed or New College. Haha, they don’t have a nuclear reactor. 
They have what they need for their curriculum, their intramural, extra curriculars, and things, though.</p>
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<p>I have to agree 100%. NCF is VERY academically rigorous. I don’t know why those people, whom Ghostt heard from, would say something like that, “[NCF] is not especially rigorous”…lol</p>
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<p>That is coollike! 
lol</p>
<p>You can’t go wrong with either NCF or Reed, both are great, intellectually rigorous, and well proven boot camps for prime graduate schools in our nation, lol. I wouldn’t know much about Bard or Lewis & Clark, though. </p>
<p>But, honestly, I’d pick NCF, my self. Being on its beautiful campus…or on the beach, philosophizing about Modern Monetary Theory, taking advantage of its individualized curriculum, great financial aid, being in the cute little town of Sarasota, all the great perks this college offers…in the middle of Winter…haha. My family back in Colorado would be sooooo jealous. :D</p>
<p>It’s like a collegiate dream come true. 
:p</p>
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<p>To claim that reading Einstein and Bohr is enough to get a solid grounding in physics and chemistry nowadays is absolutely preposterous, to say nothing of biology, which moves at a pace measured not in decades, but in years and even months. St. John’s does not offer anything approaching a science major.</p>
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<p>You either missed the point of what I said or chose to ignore it, so I will repeat the relevant part: “cultures other than that of Western Europe.” </p>
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<p>As someone who considered applying to St. John’s, I am familiar with its website. St. John’s does produce science PhDs, which is admirable, but its PhD production rate outside of the humanities lags far behind its humanities PhDs. The reason for that is that St. John’s graduates interested in science need to take extra courses elsewhere/enroll in post-baccalaureate programs/self-study after they graduate in order to get into grad school.</p>
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<p>That is exactly what I meant when I said that St. John’s has bad financial aid. A school that awards merit/mystery money to upperclass students yet does not even try to meet the full financial need of its poor admits is not a place I would be interested in attending. Fortunately for me, my own school is full-need, which means that I am getting enough financial aid to comfortably be able to attend. That would not have happened at St. John’s. 70% of the St. John’s student body graduates with debt. The average debt of the school’s graduates is almost $30,000. Again, if that’s what you call good financial aid, I’m afraid I have to disagree.</p>
<p>In response to the OP, I wouldn’t exactly say Reed is unconventional. Its student body and culture may be unconventional but the curriculum is not; it is actually fairly traditional. You have to meet broad distribution requirements in a range of disciplines (in which you have some choice but if you ONLY want to take science classes and nothing else, you’re going to be out of luck). You have to complete a junior qual and a senior thesis, and both involve defending your work in an oral exam before 3-4 professors. Reed doesn’t offer minors or any ‘vocational’ majors like journalism, business, etc. This approach used to be typical to liberal arts colleges; perhaps the fact that Reed still holds onto it could be called unconventional now, considering most universities emphasize job training and specialization over critical thinking and a broad, foundational core education. You are right in grouping them as ‘learning for learning’s sake’ type schools that prioritize the ‘life of the mind’, but I would not base my opinion of Reed and NCF or all ‘unconventional’ schools on a visit to SJC.</p>
<p>Here’s a great article on Reed’s conservative-liberal paradox:
[Old</a> School | Portland Monthly](<a href=“Visual Art | Arts & Culture | Portland Monthly”>Visual Art | Arts & Culture | Portland Monthly)</p>
<p>I don’t know much about NCF, some people have talked about it vs Reed in previous threads so look those up.</p>
<p>In regards to SJC, I think it probably has a similar situation to Reed of having a somewhat self-selecting group of applicants, as the Great Books program is not for everyone (just like Reed’s rigorous curriculum and thesis requirements aren’t for everyone). Naturally, it would follow that people who desire 4 years of intense humanities and literature courses would be more prone to get PhDs in those disciplines; I can’t see the majority of liberal-arts loving scientists choosing SJC over, say, Harvey Mudd, just like most people who want to go into nursing wouldn’t attend Reed first (of course, there are exceptions). Also the fact that you can only get one major there, Liberal Arts, would be a deal-breaker for me personally. SJC sounds like the ‘traditional liberal arts education’ on steroids (while Reed is non-vocational, SJC is perhaps anti-vocational…), and definitely the most ‘unconventional’ (yet in some ways, highly traditional) of the three you listed. In regards to how financial aid, PhD productivity, etc, compare, those statistics are easy to find online, as are student reviews of specific colleges and their experiences there. </p>
<p>Regardless, I just wanted to point out that Reed has more year-long humanities courses than Hum 110 (Ancient cultures including Greece and Rome) that cover a lot of the writers and thinkers Jaan talked about. Hum 210 covers mostly Renaissance thinkers, Hum 220 covers Enlightenment through WW2, Hum 230 covers Chinese humanities, Hum 411 covers various writers from the last 10 years or so. So technically you could still take 4.5 years of intense humanities courses at Reed. The difference is that everything past Hum 110 is not a general requirement, though several majors do require a second humanities course. </p>
<p>No school can be all things to all people, so you will have to choose which things are necessary for you and figure out which schools provide them. It requires a lot of research and soul-searching prioritizing, but I think that would help differentiate a lot of seemingly similar schools. For me, the ‘perks’ of attending Reed were excellent professors who challenged and supported me, a community of really smart and creative students who love learning and are engaged in class and outside of it, having to do an ambitious undergraduate thesis, the location in Portland and on a gorgeous campus, the unique and sometimes wacky student organizations, a rigorous and critical approach to every discipline (there are no slacker majors!), the need-based financial aid, and an intellectual, creative, and experimental environment that pushes boundaries and the status quo.</p>
<p>Wow, ghostt: “I did not apply to New College of Florida because, again, it has a very meagre endowment. In addition, its campus is unappealing and I had heard from several people that the school is not especially rigorous.”</p>
<p>That’s absurd. You are talking trash. You obviously know nothing about New College. New College’s campus is gorgeous, right on Sarasota Bay. Every night you can walk to the bay to see the sunset, watch dolphins in the water, roam the campus full of banyan trees. The weather is fabulous. You can go to the beach every day. You can sail every day. You live amongst the palm trees and can walk barefoot, swim outside in the pool year round. For goodness sakes!</p>
<p>As far as not academically rigorous! You have to be kidding. You have to work for a year on a significant research project and present it in an open forum. The students are all very intellectual. You are full of it.</p>
<p>In grad school my New College husband and I lived with two Reed graduates. It is telling that we found eachother: There is an overlap there of personalities. Both men from each school were in the Physics program at one of the top schools in the country. Grad schools respect New College and Reed. You can’t go wrong with either. New College is cheaper and has better weather. I’m sure Reed has perks that NC doesn’t, also.</p>
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<p>I didn’t claim that, ever allude to that, or even implicitly claim that… o.O </p>
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<p>Indeed. It’s not really point of their type of education.</p>
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<p>Rather, I chose to skip it. ;D </p>
<p>lol</p>
<p>But, earlier today, I was reading some excerpts from Arthur Schlesinger Jr.'s The Disuniting of America: Reflections on a Multicultural Society, and it made me reflect critically on this criticism you make of St. John’s, in relation to Schlesinger’s view on the multiculturalism of the 90s. Quite interesting. </p>
<p>'Tis a shame, especially in the world of today when it is more important to be ever more familiar with other foreign cultures.</p>
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<p>Real talk. (y) This is why I actually really find Reed admirable in the tradition of a liberal arts college, being that it produces PhDs, about, equally across the humanities, social science, fine arts, and sciences. I haven’t really learnt of any other college or uni do quite the same. I think it’s a bit too early to tell, for New College, but from what I’ve seen in its alumni statistics, it seems to be fairly balanced’ish; the most popular majors being biology, economics, and English.</p>
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<p>I think it depends, from what I’ve been starting to find out. To start off, I’ve found that it’s easier to get good financial aid if a future Johnnie applies to the Santa Fe campus, where as the Annapolis campus doesn’t really offer much financial aid, or "good’ fin. aid. Then, I might add that St. John’s is trying to recover the amount of students that apply to its school. Since 2008, of course; and I’d also point towards the ever growing [anti-collegiate</a> propaganda](<a href=“http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EKolPL5Cdc]anti-collegiate”>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EKolPL5Cdc) that holds to the, general, thesis “college is worthless and ponzi scheme” [dare I even go into what they’d say about an education at St. John’s!]; the number of applicants has dropped. So, I think this could be one reason, from this multifaceted issue, that they’re luring in people by welcoming them with such a generous financial aid package.</p>
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<p>Indeed. I don’t like the [shady</a> ways some schools have been handling financial aid](<a href=“http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/print/2005/11/the-best-class-money-can-buy/304307/]shady”>The Best Class Money Can Buy - The Atlantic), in the past decades. It’d be a real shame if St. John’s is doing this to its poorer students.</p>
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<p>For sure. In comparison to any other liberal arts college, including Reed or New, I’d say SJC takes the cake for being the most liberal arts’ish. I’d even argue that it makes Reed and New seem vocational, in comparison to SJC, to illustrate how broad the education at St. John’s is.</p>
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<p>I would like to budge in here, if you don’t mind, hehe. I’d like to make a necessary point. lol</p>
<p>Though St. John’s will provide one with a great development of thought and education in the general humanities, its approach will be relatively similar in its mathematics and science classes, across the four years there, too. For example, unlike Reed and New, you’ll literally be learning Calculus directly from Newton’s Principia, then practicing it, discussing it, criticizing it, proofing it, starting the whole Leibniz-Newton debate, and then further philosophize about it in the tradition of pure math…etc. </p>
<p>Everything at St. John’s is learned directly from the primary source material; even in science and mathematics. This is a crucial difference between mathematics and science classes at New and Reed in comparison to St. John’s.</p>
<p>Obviously, St. John’s mathematics courses won’t go too much further past what math majors generally call the “Proofs” or “Introduction to Abstract Mathematics” course. From what I see in its senior’s mathematics reading material, you do get get into a lot of pure math. </p>
<p>Anyway…nor will its science courses take you very far in further specialization in any specific scientific subject. They’ll just anchor you very well in all of them, across the years, there. You’ll start learning biology, physics, chemistry, and “philosophy of science”, to put it that way, from the ancients, your first year. Then, as you progress, you’ll take these topics across the ages, and end with the scientists and scientific philosophers of the early to mid 20th century. </p>
<p>I’m not too sure that Reed’s or New’s approach to science is any similar. lol</p>
<p>As I was saying…</p>
<p>I’m not too sure if Reed’s or New’s approach to science or math courses is much similar. I know that both would have a lot of discussion, great deal of personal attention from the faculty, a good dose of intellectual rigor, a lot more I could fit into this list, and probably the professor teaching the material in addition to a textbook helping guide the way; rather than teaching yourself about non-Euclydian geometry directly from Lobachevsky’s Theory of Parallels. </p>
<p>Could you Reedies give us some insight on this? </p>
<p>lol</p>
<p>I have received some good information from this post… that per capita, St. John’s is sending students to grad school. That’s very reassuring. I hope to attend either St. John’s, New College (sorry, decided to throw out Reed. I love the school, but I dislike Portland and do not believe I am quirky enough,) Lawrence University, Pitzer, Claremont McKenna, Colorado College, Occidental, or Swarthmore.</p>
<p>With a possible advanced degree in science… but who knows? I’m 16! :)</p>
<p>Hi, I’m a currently senior in college, China, I want to drop out and apply to Reed and St. John’s College to have a restart. I am not sure whether I’m suitable for them. I think I’m the intellectual type, love reading and thinking, and concerns about the democratization process in my country, interested in humanities rather than vocational ones. Could you give me more detail about these two colleges and your advices?</p>
<p>Well, do you have enough money to redo college? I mean, St. John’s is in the 565 group, but I do not know how generous they would be in financial aid…</p>
<p>SJC can cover 60% of tuition and board if admitted. What I concern is about whether I can be admitted. i’m not very confident since my information about SJC is quite limited. The acceptence rate of SJC is about 80%, is that true?</p>
<p>Yes, but keep in mind that it is a self selective school. What I mean by this is… well, I’ll juxtapose two schools to give you an idea.</p>
<p>St. Johns College- 78% Acceptance Rate
SAT CR- 640-740
SAT Math- 570-690
ACT- 27-30</p>
<p>Louisiana State University- 72% Acceptance Rate
SAT CR- 510-630
SAT Math- 540-650
ACT- 23-28</p>
<p>So, as you can see from the data, St. John’s is a more self selective school than this arbitrary state university I compared it to. St. John’s has a higher acceptance rate even though LSU has more slots to fill, yet St. John’s statistics are higher in EVERY SINGLE category. What this means is that the students who apply to St. John’s are already intellectual in the first place.</p>
<p>Remember, the single most important thing when applying to St. John’s is the essay. As my tour guide at St. John’s once said, “When you write that essay, you should be able to squeeze the paper and your blood comes out. As radical as it sounds, it’s true.”</p>
<p>What a great school.</p>
<p>marshallmeyer12, thank you so much for your reply! yes I understand SJC is self selective. I find myself fall in love with SJC, and I’m worried whether “she” would accept me.</p>
<p>my English proficency is a problem, I guess I can get TOEFL 100+, but 110+ is not really easy for me.( I come from China)</p>
<p>Another thing worries me is about the books that influence me, which would be an important part of my essay. The books that are important to me are quite unconventional, I’m not sure SJC admission committee feel comfortable or not. The first important book to me is Psychology of Sex, by Haverlock Ellis, read in High school. The second is Media Control in China, by He Qinglian, which is published outside of China. The third is Zhao Ziyang:Captive Conversations（about the June 4,1989 incident), published in HK.</p>
<p>If I be true to myself, taking about China’s history, politics, and the democratization struggle, will SJC committe members feel uncomfortable?
(I haven’t read much literature or philosophy so far, but i am willing to)</p>
<p>why I think this way is that, almost nobody, no applicant talks about them, if I talk, though quite unique, people’s first impression can be unpleasant, or feel risky to let me in.</p>