? regarding double major versus masters -- especially elementary education...pls help

Parents Forum
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<p>Hi!</p>

<p>i am a parent AND a student (back to college after many years). If I really work hard, I can graduate after the summer semester with either a BA in Philosophy or a BA in communications. </p>

<p>i would eventually like to teach elementary education. i was advised not to complete the undergrad in elementary education, as that would take another year or more (I have tons of elective credits that wouldn't apply).</p>

<p>Here is the problem -- the master's of education/teacher licensure program starts in May, so I couldn't start for another 10 months. would I be better off (pay wise/job opportunity wise) finishing up my BA quickly, then taking some additional graduate level courses that could be applied to a second master's later for that year -- or -- would I be better off staying in undergrad another year and getting a double major and more undergrad courses?</p>

<p>I have talked to advisors at 3 schools in the area, and I get different and conflicting answers every time. i am having a hard time pinning anyone down of a general recommendation.</p>

<p>so -- would 1 BA and 2 master's in teaching (the master's in 2 different areas, like gifted and curriculum) be better than a double major BA and one master's?</p>

<p>i appreciate any help or suggestions -- i am really on the fence here!</p>

<p>thanks!!!!</p>

<p>stef</p>

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<p>In my state you MUST get a masters degree within seven years of your initial certification. So...in this state I would advise going for the masters. Check your state's requirements.</p>

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<p>I don't mean to be rude, but why is this question all about you? If you want to teach at the elementary level, why don't you consider what would be best for your future students?
You aren't going to teach elementary students "communications" you know. Maybe philosophy might be helpful. But "Education" is the antithesis of what you need in order to teach effectively at the elementary level. What are you going to teach them, how to write a lesson plan? Really.
If you care AT ALL about the future students, take some childhood development classes, study the scientific Montessori methods, and a real academic discipline like English or History.</p>

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<p>I second the idea of getting your MAT after your single BA. Taking courses in el. ed would ease the transition during the time difference would be a great way to get an idea of what the curriculum will be like since you won't have your BA in education. I'll echo what thumper said that most states require earning an MAT through continuing ed courses while you are teaching in a limited period of time.</p>

<p>Another option you can do is get the BA and take a few education courses while being a substitute teacher. Many states will allow people with a bachelor degree become a substitute teacher, you just paid less. Emergency certification also may be an option...</p>

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<p>I've talked to a few people in the administration department in our school district about this. All have said that they would rather hire someone that has classroom experience (lots of student teaching, or working as an aide or substitute) then someone without that but has a masters. Since they are bound by union rules to pay more for someone that has a higher degree, but probably is not a better teacher, why not higher a bachelor degree only candidate? Around here the districts also require you to go back to school and get so many credit hours within a few years and to get the next step increase most hired teachers go for their advanced degree then. I asked about it because my daughter was looking at a couple of colleges that had a 5 year teaching program that ended up with a masters.</p>

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<p>Our high school is close to Harvard, so it gets a number of student teachers. Some of them have BAs from top universities (Princeton and Gerorgetown for my S). As part of their Master's degree, they must spend a year as student teachers. The first semester, they shadow a mentor; the second semester, they take over the teaching, while their mentor sits in the class and observes (and presumably gives them advice and helps with lesson plans outside the class). These student teachers were two of the best teachers my S encountered in high school. Their mentor, by the way, had a doctorate in Education.
The point is that they got classroom experience as part of their Ed. M program. I believe highly qualified students are sought after; not all districts seek to reduce their payroll by hiring teachers with lower degrees.</p>

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<p>Why not call the personnel officer in a school district where you think you'd like to teach and ask? How the heck would we know.... every school district is different and each state has different regulations.</p>

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<p>thanks for the helpful replies -- I appreciate any input.</p>

<p>i have called the local school districts and they simply refer me to the posted pay scale and ask me to submit an application when I meet the qualifications -- nothing more.</p>

<p>As far as "why this is all about me" -- its not, but in order to teach you have to jump through certain hoops and I am trying to find out the best way to do that. i have taught private preschool and kindergarten for over 20 years, run my own school and have over 45 hours in early childhood education credits -- so i know something about teaching. I have some montessori training also. i also have a number of hours in all the basic subjects. </p>

<p>My problem is that I need to find the most efficient way to get an elementary ed degree so that the teaching position pays well enough to support me and my two kids (hubby is recently out of the picture) and teaching preschool doesn't do it. I can get an undergrad in philosophy and a masters in curriculum and education in the same amount of time that i can get an undergrad just in education (because of the credit hours required).</p>

<p>It seems like several people are saying that some experience is going to count for alot. I think I will check locally and see if there are some private or charter schools who would hire me with just the bachelor's degree -- even if it is just part-time or something. all local school district require certification and the emergency certificate is through a special program that costs $5000, so that is not a possibility.</p>

<p>Thanks for all the suggestions!</p>

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<p>hsmomstef:</p>

<p>Please consider that, while they do not require certification, many private and charter schools pay less than public schools.</p>

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<p>hsmomstef,
Tough question to answer. Go online and check with your state department of education regarding certification requirements. With the implementation of No Child Left Behind (NCLB) and the requirement to hire "highly qualified teachers" the issue of certification has gotten pretty muddied.</p>

<p>Questions to ask your state dept. of ed. folks might include:
1. What is the minimun entry level degree to teach in the state?
2. What is the requirement for ongoing training/coursework/etc.? Degree upgrade to Masters?
3. What is the student teaching requirement?
4. Does the state certify teachers from universities in the states with preapproved programs, and/or accept certificates from other states, and/or have alternative certification programs, and/or does a "credit count" to determine classes needed to cobble together coursework for certification?</p>

<p>The folks in the Teacher Certification department of your state dept. of ed. should be able to help you determine the quickest, most feasible method of gaining certification.</p>

<p>Good luck!</p>

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<p>I think you need to find out the teacher prep and licensing requirements for where you live. I know that in NY you now must complete a teacher prep course (either at the undergrad or the graudate level). In addition you must past a series of test, LAST, CST and ATWS, you must complete a masters. The bump in pay comes at the 30 credits above the masters.</p>

<p>Right now, finish th BA in communications/or philosophy. Forget the double major as neither subjects is really going to help you in elementary ed. and the # credits that you would take fulfilling the double major would be better served by going toward a minor in education and maybe provisional certification so you could work in the school system while you complete the masters. </p>

<p>Then look in to getting into a MAT program (since your undergrad is not in education, you will most likely have to take more credits despite your back ground in preschool). </p>

<p>I am a little confused because since you have *taught private preschool and kindergarten for over 20 years, ran your own school and have over 45 hours in early childhood education credits * there should have been some overlap for you to complete a BA in elementary ed. Because even a degree in early childhood education would allow you to teach K/1 in public school.</p>

<p>The masters in curriculum and education, is really not going to help you at this point because you would usually have to be a certified teacher before doing curriculum/staff development. maybe soozie will chime in because I think she works in this area and has done both.</p>

<p>Instead of taking more graduate courses, hold on to your money and investigate your options as maybe you can find a program that begins in the fall (there is still time to apply to one)</p>

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<p>Hsmomstef - my husband did something like what you are doing.
First, you have to find out what your state or locality requires (and check a couple of neighboring states if crossing state lines is even a remote possibility) - I would collect data both about bare minimum requirements and what degree will lead to better pay.
Like Sybbie, I'm a little confused about the 45 hours in EC - are they continuing ed vs actual college courses? I know it seems as if some of those courses should apply to elementary education, but sometimes these teacher ed departments can be amazingly inflexible - my husband's journey to certification took twice as long as advertised, and that was going full time year round.</p>

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<p>I re-read your original post, and I think I grasp it a little better. I think I would save my money, and start in May, BUT I would visit the Dean/Director of the teacher certification program with a copy of my transcript(s), and find out exactly what I didn't have for the program that I needed. Then if there is an under grad course or 2 to take, you can get that out of the way between now and May.
This is what happened to my husband - he had an undergrad degree double major in chem and physics, and wanted to teach high school chemistry (10 years work experience). Part of the Masters' certification program was X number of hours in your major subject at the masters' level. Well, after he got started, it was apparent that the uni offered no advanced chem or physics courses, only bio, AND he was not able to take the bio courses because he had not taken any biology in college! So he had to take a year each of basic biology and basic geology (don't ask) in order to be able to go on. You don't want to fall into that position with tight finances.</p>

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<p>as far as the 45 hours in ece -- it is in college credits, but they do not count toward the elementary ed degree! (I think they will accept one 3 hour credit class with an appeal process, possibly 2 classes). I looked into just getting a degree in early childhood education, but the only local school that offers that degree is one of those "for working adults" programs -- it is twice the cost per credit hour and it would take me 4 years to finish the degree, because they only offer the classes a few at a time -- so that wouldn't work.</p>

<p>My biggest problem is that the system is such a mystery to me! I have pored over all the websites and read all the information I can find, but I still have so many questions -- and I have trouble finding the answers. for instance, the state requires testing for certification -- there is one for early childhood education, elementary education, reading, gifted and more. I am very interested in elementary education, but since I already have the knowledge I would like to test for the early childhood education one also. I am also interested in teaching the gifted -- but no where is there information on whether the tests "certify you" or can be added to your license, or what. I called the department of education and they sent me a packet of info that was just a list of tests, etc...still no info.</p>

<p>I want to be the best teacher I can be (I was always the most sought after teacher when I taught and I love teaching). I want to have as much knowledge as I need to do a great job -- and I need to be able to make money doing it (my problem with preschool). It is just how to do that.</p>

<p>The master's program I am looking at has told me that they do not care what my undergrad is in, that the general distribution credits will satisfy the general requirements since this is for elementary education. The master's program is at colorado college, which is an excellent, small liberal arts college who's teacher graduates are in much demand -- so I think that is my best choice for a master's program (and the master's program is a 14 month intensive with teacher licensure included). My undergrad will be at University of colorado, since i have too many credits to transfer to colorado colleges block plan at this point (this is what they suggested).</p>

<p>My new plan is to take all my transcripts and all my questions and sit down with the dean of the education department at colorado college as ask her what she thinks would be my best choices as far as classes, degrees, work/volunteer experience. I had ask to talk with her before, but they might have been at a busy time -- I was told to call back at the end of my last semester.</p>

<p>I am also call the department of education and I am going to stay on the line until I at least get the name and number of someone who might help me.</p>

<p>I have talked to so many people out there with similiar stories -- how it took them twice as long to get the degree as they originally thought, how credits didn't transfer, how even with the degree, they couldn't find jobs, etc. I just scares me! i am really hitting this hard (taking 20-25 hours a semester) and I just want to make sure it pays off!</p>