Rejecting a BS/MD program?

<p>Thanks guys for all the responses! Its really awesome to see a pretty big discussion going on here.
I’m not sure how relevant this is, but over the summer (while doing an internship in india), the people i worked under, and my cousins all were urging me to do med school there (5.5 years). I considered it seriously, and my mom told me to think of it like 5.5 years of hell (and by hell I mean more than just the extreme coursework; essentially the weather is so hot it feels awful, the smell, and the food is terrible) then complete freedom for life. Although I do feel like I would be able to diagnose patients better if I had trained abroad, there is SO much more to the medical field than just being able to diagnose. You need to have the compassion, the people skills (one doctor I worked with would just yell at all his patients, giving a quick and accurate diagnosis, but completely lacking people skills), and the business skills (esp in america, working around insurance companies) on the side as well. I think a lot of people forget this, esp in combined programs. Theres more to college than just classes; the entire reason american higher education is so good is because the fact that the greats all congregating in one place can never go wrong. Its hte people you meet, which educates you as much as the classes</p>

<p>Yale,
"I’m surprised no one has mentioned the only advantage I see in a 7 year combined program. You save $60K in tuition " </p>

<p>-No, you really do not. My D. has chosen non-accelerated combined program and had absolutely the same college experience as all pre-meds around her minus stress (including trying her very best - no single “B” so far, applying out of her program and getting accepted to several Med. Schools including some in top 20, all while having one spot already). So, MCAT requirement has worked in her favor, since you cannot apply to other schools without MCAT. </p>

<p>However, she was accepted to accelerated program and we have checked tuition for 2 (or optional 3) years that we would be paying for UG in accelerated bs/md. It was higher than regular route, maybe because they typically carry 21 hrs (vs about 18-19 that D. ended up having in freshmen and sophomore year with 2 minors) or maybe because they had to take summer classes (D. had never took summer class, except for free credits for presenting project based on trip abroad. Being “free” was part of Honors college deal which had nothing to do with combined program). So, D’s 4 year tuition at non-accelerated program was covered at 100% because of Merit Scholarships (and some R&B also were covered), while we would end up paying some $$ if she has chosen accelerated bs/md. Merit Scholarships depend on college, not the program, and at least in the one that I am familiar, acceleration resulted in higher tuition/year.</p>

<p>@ awesomesauceness</p>

<p>As a senior who presently studies in India and as someone who has applied to (and qualifed for multiple interviews at) various BS/BA - MD programs in the states, I would like to drop in to say that your post is full of stereotypes and is not entirely true.</p>

<p>I know a student who, after studying for 4 yours at the University of Colorado, attended a medical college in my city. His opinion was the complete opposite; in fact, he praised the education he got here as it infused a much more indepth hands-on, practical approach early on in his medical education, something that could probably never take place in American schools, as it may breach the set of ethical practices prescribed at the institution.</p>

<p>The coursework is also much less intense, in that you have no USMLE-equivalent exam. This means that, if you fail, you can retake the year-end final exam and continue with your education thereafter.</p>

<p>However, there are many drawbacks to the medical education system in India, albeit none of which you mention. The American medical education is a much more holistic one, in many other aspects. This, primarily, draws my attention and makes me want to attend an American medical school.</p>

<p>Nevertheless, I understand and I agree to the point you make, which is that a medical career is much more than just classes and that becoming (and practicing as) a fine physician involves the understanding of many integral traits such as compassion and consideration.</p>

<p>Miami:</p>

<p>Did not know that accelerated programs increase the annual tuition to take away the cost savings. In either case, the acceleration gets you into the workplace faster and should theoretically increase your lifetime earnings.</p>

<p>I’m also glad to hear that your daughter had the option to apply to top 20 schools while holding her current spot for security. I know that the Brown program no longer allows that. If you choose to apply outside the program you have to give up your secured spot first. I don’t think that is much of a risk since a student from Brown with a good transcript should be able to do better than Brown’s medical school but it is not as nice a deal as your daughter got. Her situation does sound nearly ideal with a full undergraduate experience, extra security based on her hard work in high school, and perhaps better opportunities if she worked hard in college.</p>

<p>I have concluded based on posts in this thread as well as many others devoted to subject of combined bs/md programs, that people who are in the programs are loving it, and people who are not in programs have very negative opinion about them. First group has formed their opinion on facts, while second one on assumptions. Some of assumptions are inaccurate, like asuming that all programs are about the same and that kids are not having the same experiences in college as everybody else. How people who are not in programs formed their opinions about them, what is a base for their opinions or the whole discussion is simply about everybody supporting their own way, regular route or combined program? But then again, kids in programs are surrounded by other pre-meds who go thru their whole UG experience working hard striving for that GPA=3.6+ and knowing that only about 43% of applicants get accepted to Med. School. Some of them are affected so deeply by this feeling that it prevents them from getting their true MCAT score and they end up not getting what they truly deserve (maybe girls are affected more by this than boys?).</p>

<p>First group has formed their opinion on facts, while second one on assumptions</p>

<p>I think that is a bit overstated. Some of us (myself included) directly work with physicians who have taken an accelerated route and have formed their opinions on more than assumptions. Also, earlier posts have suggested empiric data that combined degree programs have accumulated that say these students don’t perform as well in school. I don’t know if the total number of combined programs is trending up or down but certainly the degree of acceleration has diminished. Twenty-five to thirty years ago Penn State had a 5 year combined program. Can anyone imagine that this was good for students or prospective patients? Without doubt an 8 year program like your daughter took differs from a 6-7 year program many are contemplating.</p>

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<p>Actually, you have formed your opinion on your data point of 1, your daughter, your daughter, your daughter, your daughter.</p>

<p>The fact is, BS/MD programs were created 50-60 years ago at a time when medicine was less popular. They were created to draw more talented people into medicine. This is no longer a problem today. The pool of college applicants is very strong (as measured by acceptance rate, average GPA and MCAT scores). Some medical schools have noticed that the medical students who entered via the regular pathway have outperformed their BS/MD counterparts. This is not true for every program. But, this has been shown in some studies and explicitly stated by some med schools (ie Northwestern Feinberg SOM). As a consequence, many programs have closed or are shrinking. You cannot deny that this is the trend right now. </p>

<p>Despite everyone getting fixated on the academic performance of BS/MD students in med school, I actually think the biggest disadvantage is that you are locking kids (yes, kids) into a career path at an early age. It is difficult to drop out of BS/MD programs because BS/MD programs require heavy investment from the college/med school. They don’t like to see anyone drop out. More so than logistics, it is difficult psychologically for the student to drop out. If you are a student who could have gone to Cornell or Duke but instead choose Drexel’s Drexel/Drexel BS/MD program, are you really going to drop out of that program to pursue another major at…Drexel? No. You are going to stay in that BS/MD program whether you like it or not. </p>

<p>If you really ask these programs about their attrition rates, it’s actually higher than you would think. What’s amazing is that I think the attrition rate would actually be higher if not for the reason I just stated. It’s unrealistic to expect 17 year olds to know what career they want to enter into.</p>

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<p>Yea, who cares about ethics in medicine anyway? I would gladly let a 12 year old operate on a patient.</p>

<p>The problem with attending a foreign medical school is that it’s hard to obtain US residencies. Before someone jumps in about how their mom’s 12th cousin is now a prestigious cardiologist in the US after attending med school in India, let’s look at the numbers. The pass rate of IMG’s on the USMLE is substantially lower (60% or so vs. 90%+ for US med students). The match rate is also substantially lower (almost everyone from a US med school matches somewhere, whereas the match rate for FMG/IMG’s is roughly 50%). Moreover, almost everyone from a foreign med school who do match, match at a less competitive specialty. In many departments at my school, we don’t even look at applications from IMG’s. The vast majority of IMG’s match into peds, path, internal med, family med, or psych. They make up 30-60% of the residents in those specialities. In most other specialities, they make up less than 7% of the residents. As a high schooler, it’s impossible to decide that you’ll go into peds or family med, so you should keep your options open. A foreign med school should be a last resort.</p>

<p>Yale,
But you are talking about accelerated programs and assume that they all about the same. This is one of the assumptions that I have mentioned. Another one is assumption that all in a program are not doing that well. It is up to a student in a program as well as regular route to do well or not academically and in other aspects. I believed that my D.did well and I believe that that there are many others. I do not see her doing poorly in Med. School, although nobody can quarantee anything. My opinion is based on her GPA/MCAT, LORs…number of Med. Schools that accepted her and quality of these schools (although I tend to think that acceptance to any single American Med. School is an incredible achievement). I have no other data and cannot use generic statement that because she was in combined program, she will not do very well. But again it remains to be seen. however, i personally know somebody from accelerated program (not any high ranked school either) who got residency at Mayo Clinic, not too bad by me, but I am not an MD and not related to medical field at all.</p>

<p>@nitcomp
Maybe you didnt read my post completely. I said basically the exact same thing that you said. Originally I was considering india because it gave a much more hands on approach, and I think that doctors trained in india would be better at diagnosis, but lack the holistic viewpoints that an american education offers (business skills, and ethics are the two biggies). True, you may see more cases, be more hands on than a US med school, and cram more material in 5.5 years (i visited a school there and seriously considered it; its tough!), but overall being a doctor is not just about seeing a piece of paper, or a doll and saying whats wrong, but more about being human. I worked in india for 6 weeks and worked directly with many doctors, and there is a stark contrast to the pediatrician I work with here in the states. </p>

<p>Plus, even though you may not be able to directly treat patients, a lot of med schools here offer a LOT of clinical experience, arguably as much or more than you would obtain there. For example, the med school I will be going to hires actors who pretend to be sick, who you then diagnose. They have plastic models (that feel eerily like real human parts), on which you can practice childbirth and surgery. I completely agree with the legal restrictions thing in india though; I was able to examine patients and give a secondary diagnosis (which would be verified, but it was pretty much the same examination as the doctor would give), and I was not even a senior in highschool yet.</p>

<p>@MiamiDAP
Agreed, a lot of people i think are assuming that all BS/MD programs are created equal. This is a COMPLETELY wrong assumption; there are better programs than others.
Actually, I noticed that too; i almost feel like the people who didnt get into bs/md programs sound a bit bitter (not all of them, a few though). HOWEVER, I think that they do have legitimate opinions, especially if they are classmates with them. The doctor who i shadow once a week who went to Albany medical college was telling me that the kids feeding in from RPI/Albany were really immature, still drinking and not really focused on school (and it showed in their grades). (note that she mad no mention of siena/albany; the kids there im guessing were okay) But either way, its good to hear everyones opinion and make your own decision at the end.
And btw you DO have to take the USMLE in a lot of american colleges.</p>

<p>I find it strange that people think that high schoolers in 11th or 12th grade are somehow being disadvantaged and locked in by going into a combined medical program. There are a vast number of students who go into college knowing they want to do engineering, business, or political science, and many of them stick with it. Is that any different?</p>

<p>An even more compelling argument is how higher education works in most other countries. In most other countries (countries in Europe, Asia, etc) ALL students choose to go into medicine or not right after high school. You do not need a bachelor’s degree to go to medical school and 90% of students go to medical school straight out of high school. While I think the idea of a liberal arts education before medical school in the United States is great and has many benefits – I am not disparaging the idea at all – I see no reason why Americans at the age of 16, 17, or 18 cannot make informed decisions to go into the field of medicine when their counterparts in almost every other part of the world can and do all the time.</p>

<p>I totally agree with johnstoops.</p>

<p>Although many people, such as NorCalGuy, like to argue against BS/MD programs, I like that students who are actually in BS/MD programs seem very content with their choice.</p>

<p>johnstoops: I agree.</p>

<p>In the US, we have barriers to entry in some professions. Medicine is one of them. More filters you have, fewer workers can enter the profession, and higher is their lifetime earnings. Sure, one can be conscripted to fight wars at 18 of years of age and make life and death decisions on the battlefield; however, when it comes to US medical schools, the 18 year olds are presumed to be immature to grasp & learn the fundamentals of medicine! Go figure the logic.</p>

<p>johnstoops: i totally agree</p>

<p>facebook founder - not graudate from college, bill gates - drop out Harvard, they can make their own decision at age around 19 or 20, why not kids like BS/MD students.</p>

<p>you don’t like the BS/MD people or program, doesn’t mean the people are no good or the program is bad. Maybe some other reason …</p>

<p>I completely agree with johnstoops as well. </p>

<p>When it comes to BS-MD v. traditional route I believe that one needs to choose based on a few things:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Firstly, I believe that the school must be one that the student would consider even if the BS-MD program were not there, even if it were a safety school.</p></li>
<li><p>The student must feel that ‘fit’. The student should be in an environment that they wouldn’t want to trade for any other. </p></li>
<li><p>The medical school should be of very good quality. The student selected to these programs (usually) have 98th-99th+ percentile scores on standardized tests. Not to say that the SAT or ACT compares to the MCAT, but compared to the rest of the test-takers, these students have a proven track record that they can get it done. Whether they do or not, we can only assume that most of them would get a score good even for the ‘better’ medical schools. So, the med school of the BS-MD should be one that is very good. The interpretation of very good is different from one student or another though.</p></li>
<li><p>The program should be non-binding. Hey, people change and people want change. Whether it be location, a better med school, a different crowd of people, whatever, people like it when they have more options. I feel that to consider a program it MUST be non-binding (and preferably lets you retain your seat in the BS-MD’s med even if you apply out).</p></li>
<li><p>Last point for me would be the college experience. This may be overrated and whatnot, but these are 4 years of your life (maybe 8 if you stay through the program) that you can never get back. A mindset that I think students should have that get into these programs is even if they go the traditional route they would get into medical school. If not, then c’est la vie. It is not meant to be for some reason. The students at BS-MD’s are 97th+ percentile SAT/ACT scorers, top of their classes, have amazing resumes, and more. So, if such students don’t get into med the regular route, then I really believe that med is not meant to be. </p></li>
<li><p>Intangibles: weather, sports, culture, school spirit, location, food, near family, far from family, other students (similar caliber or good blend, socioeconomic backgrounds, etc.)…whatever it may be, the school must fulfill what you want.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>At the end of the day, I believe that if a school fits all these criterion then you can choose it for the BS-MD. That is my opinion. Of course no matter what school you choose, most likely it doesn’t fit every single one of these categories, but I feel that in choosing a BS-MD school one should pay that much more attention to such factors.</p>

<p>johnstoops, the discussion of whether we should follow other countries in allowing HSers to enter medicine would indeed be very interesting, although beyond the scope of this thread.</p>

<p>What is evident is that many college freshmen and sophomores change majors, sometimes multiple times. This is not so surprising because HS classes and college classes are incredibly different. You may have been a rockstar in HS bio and think that you would make a perfect doctor but your C in college intro bio says different. Isn’t that the attraction of BS/MD programs? To protect students who excelled in HS from discovering their weakness (or the fact they weren’t meant to be a doctor?). If there are so many students who can’t cut it in premed, then it stands to reason that there is a large discrepancy between high school and college versions of the same course. So, then why are you choosing future med students (and allowing them to choose their careers) based on high school courses? That’s the inherent hypocrisy of BS/MD programs.</p>

<p>But to focus on the programs specifically in the United States, these programs are expensive. They require the reading of thousands of additional applications. They require faculty members taking their time to interview applicants. In the end, they don’t want to lose anyone. It’s just like med school. They will do whatever it takes to keep you in the program. Back in the day, BS/MDers performed quite favorably compared to their traditional counterparts because their traditional counterparts were weaker. This allowed med schools to balance the costs of the program with the benefits. Today, the college pool is just too strong to justify the upkeep of a BS/MD program. Hence, you are seeing many programs shut down or trimmed.</p>

<p>I agree with you viggyram. 100%. But, I don’t think that’s the thought process most HSers go through in selecting a BS/MD school. I think many of them let the allure of a “guarantee” (which is really a conditional guarantee) get in the way of the the rest of the consideration. </p>

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<p>This quote from miamidap is pretty much the only thing I agree with. I interviewed at several medical schools that have BS/MD programs (SLU, WashU, Northwestern, George Washington, Tufts). Inevitably, the subject of BS/MDers comes up when talking with medical students. Some of the med students I talked with expressed their disappointment with the maturity of BS/MD students. They also didn’t like the fact the BS/MD students often formed their own clique and were not as integrated with the rest of the med school class. Occasionally, someone would mention that BS/MD students have more difficulty with the course material. </p>

<p>I have a strong interest in education (specifically medical education). Hence, I am invested in this topic of how we can best structure our medical education. I do a lot of mentoring around the city and even founded by own mentoring program (was awarded a couple of grants and a fellowship for it) and I’m involved with the admissions process at my own medical school. I basically tell HS kids exactly what viggram wrote in his post when they ask me about BS/MD programs. But, from talking to them, there is just too much naivete about medicine and a lack of understanding of the admissions process in general. I don’t expressly discourage anyone from medicine but a lot of them are not quite getting an accurate picture of what it means to be a doctor.</p>

<p>“Occasionally, someone would mention that BS/MD students have more difficulty with the course material.” </p>

<p>Does it apply to all the pre-med students or traditional route med students?? So, Norcalguy - if you love academic medicine, be objective…, don’t draw your conclusion from just one-side.</p>

<p>ViggyRam, one side note, suppose Harvard or John Hopkins decides to accept BS/MD students next year and there is no apply out option, will you still apply? i bet majority ppl here will do, and glad to be locked in. hahaha.</p>

<p>So, it still depends on school and program. If u have good scholarship and feel “fit” to the program, and the school rank is not that bad, then it’s like “one bird in hand worth many in the bush/woods”. </p>

<p>There are many UC-berkely or MIT students with 3.9 GPA still not able to get into med school…</p>

<p>@norcalguy, I’m glad that I have your approval. :)</p>

<p>@BigFire, The point your making is pretty much emphasizing my point. Those schools have very few drawbacks because they meet much of the criteria that I posted (other than weather, and fit is something one needs to find for themselves). So, the point is that the undergraduate studies at these schools pose no drawbacks, the med schools are very good, so yeah, a BS-MD at those schools would be enticing to nearly every prospective ‘pre-premed’ out of high school (if they were to have programs). So, in a situation like this there is no need to apply out. However, the point is that the vast majority of BS-MD programs have meds that are not top 20 (HPME and UPitt…which you need to keep a 3.85 for are the only ones that are top 10 I think) and many of these students at BS-MDs ‘could’ potentially be applicants to these meds. That’s why a program should allow one to apply out. (unless it’s something like Rice-Baylor and that student is a Texas resident and it makes total sense to stay…not sure if Rice-Baylor is binding, just an example).</p>

<p>In the end, it’s a personal choice. I’m definitely not one to be biased as I applied to 2 BS-MD programs and many other schools for the traditional route. I think I follow norcalguy’s line of though on this matter now that I’ve done plenty of my own research.</p>

<p>EDIT: Um, unless there are major flaws or ‘lacks-of’ on a 3.9 app from MIT or UC-B, I can’t see how these students wouldn’t get into at least one med. With that kind of GPA from those schools, a student should tear up the MCAT (intellectual talent) and should be smart enough/willing enough to muster decent ECs.</p>