<p>@NorCalGuy:</p>
<p>You said, “back in the day, BS/MDers performed quite favorably compared to their traditional counterparts because their traditional counterparts were weaker. This allowed med schools to balance the costs of the program with the benefits.” Are you just pulling crap out of your behind, or do you actually have objective data to support your statement? Provide a few sources. Include citations.</p>
<p>^Well, med school admissions have become more competitive for sure, although sources would be nice. </p>
<p>Another point, when I was interviewing at a BS-MD I was told something along the lines of, ‘Even if you don’t get selected, all of the finalist candidates are great students and I’m sure you’ll get in the regular route’. Hopefully this is just a normal thing the interviewer says to all candidates and I didn’t blow the interview (I think I did well), but just something else I find to be interesting and probably quite true for the vast majority of BS-MD accepted students/finalist stage students.</p>
<p>EDIT: It really boils down to the removal of stress that BS-MDs provide. However, I find two inherent flaws with this:</p>
<p>a) if the school is non-binding, students work just as hard as traditional route students in attempts to go to a ‘better’ med. Sure, you are already in at one med, but are these students applying out for just 1 other acceptance? Are they applying out to just 1 more med? Probably not, and they probably will yield more than one acceptance if they apply out.
b) if binding (and made worse with no MCAT), students haven’t had to deal with pressure, intense studying and preparation, etc. (USMLE, rounds, med school content, etc. would probably favor someone who has been exposed to such things).</p>
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It’s little confusing who you are referring to exactly. The students, the schools, or something else? </p>
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People make choices that have pros and cons. Nothing is guaranteed; I think it’s silly to be so fixated with the negatives. Even at Northwestern where students can really drop out of the program to pursue another major easily, I hardly know anyone that drops out. I wouldn’t use a hypothetical case that’s not very common to discredit BS/MD programs. Overall, most that are in them do seem to benefit from those programs.</p>
<p>As for schools like Northwestern shrinking their programs, well, I don’t see how that has anything to do with BS/MD being bad for students. The schools are just trying to level the playing field between the two admission scheme. Selectivity itself doesn’t make students smarter or dumber. “Traditional” students outperform the BS/MD counterparts because of selectivity difference, not because accelerated programs somehow make people dumber. As you said, schools are adjusting the selectivity by downsizing to fix this “problem”. To the extent that this problem still exists, you are basically saying some students in the BS/MD programs are getting spots they don’t deserve. Well, isn’t that the “benefit” for the students? Unless you are advocating for the rejected ones but it’s hard to tell since you’ve been kinda all over the map.</p>
<p>HPME:</p>
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</p>
<p>And obviously, these programs are terrible for diversity lol I can’t believe someone got offended earlier when I mentioned the fact these programs are essentially Asian factories.</p>
<p>Strength of traditional applicants:
<a href=“https://www.aamc.org/download/161690/data/table17-facts2010mcatgpa99-10-web.pdf.pdf[/url]”>https://www.aamc.org/download/161690/data/table17-facts2010mcatgpa99-10-web.pdf.pdf</a></p>
<p>In 1990, the avg MCAT of matriculants was 29.7, GPA of 3.59. In 2010, the average MCAT of matriculants was 31.1, average GPA of 3.67. It doesn’t look like much but this is just over the last 10 years. The average MCAT and GPA has gone up approx 1/3 of a std dev. BS/MD programs have been around for 50 years so quite a lot has changed.</p>
<p>Drees BM, Arnold L, Jonas HS. The University of Missouri-Kansas City School of Medicine: thirty-five years of experience with a nontraditional approach to medical education. Acad Med. 2007 Apr;82(4):361-9.</p>
<p>They spend pages and pages discussing the program but less than a page on the outcomes. They acknowledge they have a 20%+ attrition rate citing “academic difficulties” and “change of career interest” as the biggest reasons (the two biggest problems I see with BS/MD programs as well). Their USMLE scores continually fall within the lowest quartile of US med schools.</p>
<p>There is also a smattering of studies done on the academic performance of BS/MD students compared with the performance of regular students with variable conclusions. I won’t cite any of them because:</p>
<p>1) They typically incorporate data from the 1960’s-1980’s that’s not relevant today.
2) They often compare the performance of BS/MD students (almost all of whom are Asian) to the entire traditional medical school class (which incorporate URM’s who typically perform much worse than their Asian counterparts; ie their med school failure rates due to academic reasons are 4-6x as high as that of Asians/Whites according to the AAMC’s own study); comparing the performance of an Asian med student to that of a URM med student is not comparing apples to apples. I’m not trying to be un-PC but that’s reality.
3) Almost all of the studies are authored by physicians at med schools with BS/MD programs. These won’t be the most objective studies. </p>
<p>Nevertheless, the studies show that sometimes BS/MD students perform worse than their regular counterparts and sometimes they perform the same. HPME is the only program to explicitly state that their BS/MD students are having trouble. Others have spoken through their actions of either closing down their programs (like UCLA, UMich have done) or shrinking their programs.</p>
<p>The goals of BS/MD programs originally were to attract talented HS students, increase the proportion of primary care physicians, and increase diversity in the medical school class. They have attracted talented HS students. It’s unclear whether BS/MD students are more likely to go into primary care (I"m guessing most of you aren’t clamoring to go into primary care) and diversity has definitely not improved.</p>
<p>And before someone tries to call me racist again, this is the AAMC study looking at med school attrition rates due to academic reasons, stratified by race:</p>
<p><a href=“https://www.aamc.org/download/102346/data/aibvol7no2.pdf[/url]”>https://www.aamc.org/download/102346/data/aibvol7no2.pdf</a></p>
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<p>This is not a hypothetical case because we know many of these BS/MD programs have high attrition rates, higher than they care to openly admit. We also know that college freshmen and sophomores in general change majors frequently. There’s a reason many colleges don’t have you declare a major until the end of your sophomore year.</p>
<p>Secondly, the reported attrition rates underestimate the % of students who would’ve dropped out because these students aren’t dropping out (for the reasons I stated above).</p>
<p>Sam, you’re from NU. Why don’t you tell us why HPME has gone from 60 students to 15 students, from a 6 year program to a 7 year program?</p>
<p>For those of you applyiing to BS/MD programs, I encourage you to ask about attrition rates. And if you are applying to a program that is shrinking, ask them why they are cutting down the program.</p>
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Changing majors doesn’t equate dropping out of BS/MD programs. It’s a lot more common to see HPME students changing their undergrad majors then dropping out HPME. In fact, one benefit for the HPMEs is they get to experment their studies without having the pressure to get 3.7+.</p>
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Like I said, I don’t see going from 60 to 15 means the program is inherently bad. This is just the way to level the selectivity between the two admission scheme. I am not sure what you are trying to say.</p>
<p>I don’t knwo where you got the 6 years. I always know it’s seven (3 years undergrad) but you can have it for 8 if you want though I didn’t meet anyone that didn’t want to save a year of tuition.</p>
<p>The HPME program, like many BS/MD programs, was originally 6 years.</p>
<p>The trend has been for BS/MD programs to lengthen, to close down, or to become curtailed. </p>
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<p>Which is what I said. As the pool of traditional applicants grows stronger and as Feinberg continues to find that their HPME students are not performing up to snuff, the natural thing to do is to curtail one in favor of the other (ie increase the selectivity of HPME even further).</p>
<p>The one thing I admire Feinberg for is their honesty. They openly acknowledge that there are problems with their beloved BS/MD program and they have taken steps to try to rectify the situation. I know a couple of years ago Feinberg got in trouble for having pitiful demographics (something like only 2 African Americans in the entire med school class?) and made a concerted effort the following year to improve their diversity (as evidenced by the demographics listed on their current website).</p>
<p>ViggyRam, </p>
<p>i agree somewhat with your decision criteria mentioned above, but i would like to add one more criteria and this is the most important one, – each year’s “Residency match result”.</p>
<p>Please tell me what you call a “good” residency list. I would love to hear this one.</p>
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Well, I would like to know what source you got that from. HPME technically does not have any structure. All it does is it allows you to graduate with less credits than your peers (I think it’s 36 courses instead of the standard 45 courses). But you can stay for 4years and take 40+ courses if you like. A six year program would mean the school let you graduate with something like 24 courses and I seriously doubt that’s ever been the case.</p>
<p>[Medical</a> education and societal needs … - Google Books](<a href=“Medical Education and Societal Needs: A Planning Report for the Health ... - Google Books”>Medical Education and Societal Needs: A Planning Report for the Health ... - Google Books)</p>
<p>At the time, the book was written, there were 18 six-year programs. Now, there’s, what, two or three?</p>
<p>[Honors</a> program in medical education at Northwestern Universi… : Academic Medicine](<a href=“http://journals.lww.com/academicmedicine/Abstract/1969/12000/Honors_program_in_medical_education_at.2.aspx]Honors”>Honors program in medical education at Northwestern Universi... : Academic Medicine)</p>
<p>[SIX-YEAR</a> M.D. AT NORTHWESTERN UNIVERSITY : The Lancet](<a href=“http://www.lancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(79)92158-5/fulltext]SIX-YEAR”>http://www.lancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(79)92158-5/fulltext)</p>
<p>…and the anesthesiologist I talked to who said he graduated from HPME’s six-year program</p>
<p>Bigfire, I’ll save you the trouble.</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.rimed.org/medhealthri/2010-08/2010-08-228.pdf[/url]”>http://www.rimed.org/medhealthri/2010-08/2010-08-228.pdf</a></p>
<p>This is Brown’s match list over the last few years.</p>
<p>You tell me what I’m about to say regarding evaluating residency match lists.</p>
<p>Norcalguy,</p>
<p>Relax, i assume if you become a education minister, you will eliminate all the BS/MD program once in all… relax relax relax …</p>
<p>First of all this is completely biased if you’re using hpme as a standard; of COURSE they’re going to do worse in med school if the time spent in undergrad is less than other students. They simply havn’t grown up yet, and I wholeheartedly agree that 6 or 7 year programs have more negatives than upsides.</p>
<p>NOTE: many matriculants from regular UG’s may cut down a year, but they are still compared on the SAME standards as kiddos who went to college for the entire 4 years. With HPME, and other 7 year programs, its like the med school is saying “Oh, you did well in highschool so you dont have to take all the courses in college!”. They’re being held to a lower standard, and of course will do worse.</p>
<p>HOWEVER, note that not all BS/ MD programs are shrinking. Several of the ones I applied to are growing every year, and the med schools are very happy with the matriculants from the ug. Most of the ones that are growing are 8 year programs.</p>
<p>oh yes and @norcalguy: I think you are a bit misinformed on the people who end up in the BS/MD programs (at least the good ones). The whole point of interviews (and why they cut the majority of people interviewed) is because they are scrutinizing you, making sure you have had the experiences to be sure you want to do medicine. The people in bs/md programs often have AS MUCH experience shadowing/volunteering in med-related stuff as kids who are already in undergrad (I’ve been working alongside college kids, and am treated like one, for the majority of my med-related activities).
Also, why do you say most people rule out primary care? It’s still an option for me (so far I’ve only ruled out surgery and research).</p>
<p>Norcalguy,</p>
<p>Chill the f**k out. I’m in a BS/MD program. I love it. My fellow BS/MD classmates love it. We’re all doing well, and none of us regret turning down top colleges in order to accept the BS/MD program. The medical school dean is also extremely content with our program. An important difference between the program I’m in and most BS/MD program is that our BS/MD classes start out with about ten students or less, so, throughout undergrad, we are given plenty of attention, which helps us stay on track =D. Enjoy your weekend.</p>
<p>Cheers,</p>
<p>A BS/MD student who thoroughly enjoys his BS/MD program.</p>
<p>Just out of random curiosity, norcalguy, did you get accepted to any of the BS/MD programs you applied to?</p>
<p>I remember you mentioning in one of your earlier posts that you interviewed for multiple BS/MD programs.</p>
<p>norcalguy,</p>
<p>r u a med student, wanna be, in public health program, graduate school or something else ?
just curious … </p>
<p>Cheers, don’t get too serious on this debate …</p>
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<p>I agree with you that’s why you haven’t seen me make the argument that college kids have more clinical experience than HS kids. Frankly, outside of perhaps EMT work, you’re both relegated to the same menial tasks of stapling papers, pushing around patients, and shadowing doctors.</p>
<p>The beauty of college is that it is an entirely different experience from HS. It’s not so much that you get to explore medicine deeper in college. It’s that you’ll get to explore other careers deeper. You’ll take classes you haven’t taken before, meet people and professors that will blow your mind, and do EC’s that you haven’t done before. That’s why many people drop out of premed. At top colleges, there aren’t that many people who get weeded out because of academics (so BDM and I smirk a little bit about all the hysteria over getting the right MCAT and GPA). Actually, many people switch out because they find something else they like better. You think you like medicine until you take orgo that find that memorizing lists of stuff (which is exactly what you’ll do through 4 years med school) isn’t fun for you. Then, you start looking to law or business or whatever and will live perfectly fulfilling lives as a MBA or a lawyer or a teacher or a researcher.</p>
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<p>What I said was that I interviewed as a traditional applicant at several schools that had BS/MD programs and thus formed my opinions based on what the med students there said about their BS/MD counterparts.</p>
<p>As a college senior, I had good stats (3.98 unweighted GPA, 4.3+ weighted, 1550 SAT score-yes, I’m old, and 800, 800, 780 SAT II scores with 5’s on every AP test) so I could’ve applied to BS/MD programs. I was invited to interview for UCSD’s 8-year BS/MD program (you are automatically considered for the program on the basis of applying to UCSD) but I did not attend. I did my research back then and held the same opinions I do now. </p>
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<p>I’m a 3rd year medical student at a top 20 medical school. I’m applying to radiology in a few months. My ultimate goal is to do academic interventional radiology (a mixture of clinical practice, teaching, and research). My side interest, as I mentioned earlier, is in health and education disparities and how we can maximize our education outcomes.</p>
<p>I didn’t expect my opinions to be warmly welcomed on the BS/MD forum, which is fine 
But, I always support opinions with statistics and research. It’s a habit that you develop in medical school. If I tell my attending I want to put a patient with a stroke on Plavix instead of Aspirin, they’re going to ask me why and I need to have the research paper on hand that says Plavix is superior to aspirin for secondary prevention of stroke. If you end up in med school, you too will get used to citing papers to support every little thing that you say.</p>